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Passports, get them ordered now


Anthomaniac
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Lastlt how do we know if our license is an EDL? I cheched the non compliant list and ours is not on there. Thanks

As of 2013, an Enhanced Drivers License is available to U.S. citizens resident in the states of Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Vermont, and Washington, and to Canadian citizens resident in British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Drivers_License

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I've asked this multiple times now... how would requiring a passport stop people from bringing in some illegal item?

 

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Sorry, I don't typically visit this site often (except in the past few days) and apparently missed the question repeatedly.:o

 

Having a passport would not prevent people from bringing in illegal items but having a passport at least tracks them. People with forged documents are not easily tracked. There has been issues of drugs being transported by cruise ship passengers. Passport control last month in Miami was extremely lax (and all passengers had passports). This is an area that needs to be worked on.

 

Obviously, steps are being taken (one step at a time) to secure our borders. Whether this includes stopping closed loop cruises or not is yet to be determined.

 

To me, having a passport and NEXUS/Global entry makes it easier for Border Patrol to spend their time looking at people who do not have these items. It is also easier for us (bypassing passport control -- just looking into a machine while it does an iris scan). In Canada, there are special (shorter) lines to go through when you are having your items x-rayed. I do understand that some people do not want background checks or to be tracked in any way (although you are tracked just by being on the internet).

 

Time will tell but I suspect that traveling into or out of the U.S. will be much more secure than it is now.

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Right now only 5 states are issuing EDLs and an EDL is easy to spot- it has Enhanced across the top and a US flag on the front. They generally cost more than the standard license. To the best of my knowledge no background check is done when issuing a passport, although they do check to make sure that you aren't on the list of owing back child support. A passport is issued to verify that you are a citizen of the US, nothing more, nothing less. That's why travelers need to apply for TSA pre-check, Nexus, Sentri, Global Entry, etc. so a check can be done to allow those travelers to be cleared faster at security checkpoints. You do not need anything but your passport to enter Canada and the only other thing you might possibly need when visiting any other country is a visa.

 

 

Thanks for the info, I guess our state doesn't have the EDL's as of yet, I have to renew mine this year so i'll ask about the EDL at that point. So I guess at some point all states will issue the EDL because of the new requirement? I can imagine that would be pretty costly to do on each and every person applying for passports, thats a lot of people lol.

 

I am all for stronger border security, too many things are happening in our country and something has to be done to insure the safety of our country. Its a scary place we are in now, it seems traveling by cruise ship is safer because you don't ever hear of anything happening to them or while on board, not to say that it couldn't/wouldn't happen at some point. I hope it never does!

Edited by Luv2Cruiise
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You still haven't put forth anything that would make any sense about why anyone, especially an illegal alien, would forge a document to leave on a cruise that comes right back to the US. Illegal aliens don't routinely go on vacation and if they do they certainly aren't leaving the country they worked so hard to get into in the first place. They are not doing things to draw attention to themselves, which they most certainly would be doing if they went on a closed loop cruise. It makes even less sense for a US citizen to pay to have documents forged in order to go on a closed loop cruise. One of the intents of the REAL ID act is to make it harder to forge these documents.

 

Allow me to try to answer:

 

It is not that the alien is getting forged document to "go on a vacation." An alien would be getting on the cruise to specifically take them to a port where she could pick up something that should not be brought back into the country - it could be drugs, could be chemical weapon (remember - no 3-1-1 rule for cruise ships), could be undetectable explosives... There are drug mules that make flights out of the country and come back a few days later. To extrapolate this to use a method of transport that has slightly looser restrictions on documentation is not out of the realm of possibility. If the closed-loop loophole is not closed, this method of transit could become attractive.

 

I am a born-in-the-USA American. I am getting a new passport because my current passport has visa stamps in it for several Middle Eastern countries. With this narcissistic megalomaniac the minority of US voted for in charge and ruling by fiat like a dictator, I am not willing to take a chance that, even as a US Citizen, just because I took some vacations in exotic locations around the world, I will be stopped and detained for "extra vetting" before I am allowed back to my country anytime until he is removed from office for any reason.

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Sorry, I don't typically visit this site often (except in the past few days) and apparently missed the question repeatedly.:o

 

Having a passport would not prevent people from bringing in illegal items but having a passport at least tracks them. People with forged documents are not easily tracked. There has been issues of drugs being transported by cruise ship passengers. Passport control last month in Miami was extremely lax (and all passengers had passports). This is an area that needs to be worked on.

 

Obviously, steps are being taken (one step at a time) to secure our borders. Whether this includes stopping closed loop cruises or not is yet to be determined.

 

To me, having a passport and NEXUS/Global entry makes it easier for Border Patrol to spend their time looking at people who do not have these items. It is also easier for us (bypassing passport control -- just looking into a machine while it does an iris scan). In Canada, there are special (shorter) lines to go through when you are having your items x-rayed. I do understand that some people do not want background checks or to be tracked in any way (although you are tracked just by being on the internet).

 

Time will tell but I suspect that traveling into or out of the U.S. will be much more secure than it is now.

 

The purpose of a passport is to prove citizenship, it doesn't prove that you are a good citizen.

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Allow me to try to answer:

 

It is not that the alien is getting forged document to "go on a vacation." An alien would be getting on the cruise to specifically take them to a port where she could pick up something that should not be brought back into the country - it could be drugs, could be chemical weapon (remember - no 3-1-1 rule for cruise ships), could be undetectable explosives... There are drug mules that make flights out of the country and come back a few days later. To extrapolate this to use a method of transport that has slightly looser restrictions on documentation is not out of the realm of possibility. If the closed-loop loophole is not closed, this method of transit could become attractive.

 

I am a born-in-the-USA American. I am getting a new passport because my current passport has visa stamps in it for several Middle Eastern countries. With this narcissistic megalomaniac the minority of US voted for in charge and ruling by fiat like a dictator, I am not willing to take a chance that, even as a US Citizen, just because I took some vacations in exotic locations around the world, I will be stopped and detained for "extra vetting" before I am allowed back to my country anytime until he is removed from office for any reason.

 

The purpose of the documentation requirements is to prevent someone from coming into the country that shouldn't be coming in, not to prevent crime. I seriously doubt that an illegal alien would be doing what you outline because there is too much risk of them being detected.

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The purpose of the documentation requirements is to prevent someone from coming into the country that shouldn't be coming in, not to prevent crime. I seriously doubt that an illegal alien would be doing what you outline because there is too much risk of them being detected.

 

I'll have to agree to disagree. The people who are front-line checking IDs and documents, in my encounters, are not always the brightest bulbs in the pack. It doesn't matter if the original purpose of documentation was to prevent illegal entry, it is naive to believe that documents would not be used to travel to bring back contraband. There will always be loopholes that can be exploited.

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Having a passport would not prevent people from bringing in illegal items but having a passport at least tracks them. People with forged documents are not easily tracked. There has been issues of drugs being transported by cruise ship passengers. Passport control last month in Miami was extremely lax (and all passengers had passports). This is an area that needs to be worked on.

How does "tracking" someone help? Let's say John Doe fakes the DL and BC to go and pick up some illegal item. Now we have to assume he gets back on the ship with the illegal item. Then we get back to port. He presents the fake DL and BC as ID. Presumably he gets let in to the country because the illegal item isn't found. But if he was required to have a passport, he wouldn't be let into the country because? Or he would be "tracked" because?

 

Requiring him to have a passport doesn't change his ability to get something illegal into the country. Either his bags are scanned or they aren't.

 

Allow me to try to answer:

 

It is not that the alien is getting forged document to "go on a vacation." An alien would be getting on the cruise to specifically take them to a port where she could pick up something that should not be brought back into the country - it could be drugs, could be chemical weapon (remember - no 3-1-1 rule for cruise ships), could be undetectable explosives... There are drug mules that make flights out of the country and come back a few days later. To extrapolate this to use a method of transport that has slightly looser restrictions on documentation is not out of the realm of possibility. If the closed-loop loophole is not closed, this method of transit could become attractive.

See my answer above. What is the benefit of requiring folks to carry a passport?

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I'll have to agree to disagree. The people who are front-line checking IDs and documents, in my encounters, are not always the brightest bulbs in the pack. It doesn't matter if the original purpose of documentation was to prevent illegal entry, it is naive to believe that documents would not be used to travel to bring back contraband. There will always be loopholes that can be exploited.

 

You're addressing two different issues. If the concern is against contraband being brought in then increase the number of detection dogs and officer's. I'm not sure what you mean by "front-line checking" but if it's the cruise line personnel they aren't where the teeth are- it's the checks DHS does during the cruise and the CBP officers following the cruise.

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You're addressing two different issues. If the concern is against contraband being brought in then increase the number of detection dogs and officer's. I'm not sure what you mean by "front-line checking" but if it's the cruise line personnel they aren't where the teeth are- it's the checks DHS does during the cruise and the CBP officers following the cruise.

 

Detection dogs need to be trained for specific items. Binary liquid explosives may not be caught by a beagle checking for food. You would have to expand the dog teams and pay for the long time it takes to find and train the dogs. Think of all those who bring back "duty free" bottles of booze - could it be something else? Unless you have every piece of luggage hand-searched by officers, but rely on the X-ray, things will be missed (look at TSA's horrible record of catching things on deliberate training tests). Front-line checking is not the cruise line, but those officers at the port who look at your papers and use the severely-out-of-date computer systems and programs (I used to work IT for several government contractors). I have 2 good friends who work for CBP - I love them - but that does not mean I trust their work ethic...

There is a "no fly" list that has many people mistakenly on it who have to jump through lots of hoops to get a Redress number and still get hassled. Is there a "no cruise" list? I've never heard of one.

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Detection dogs need to be trained for specific items. Binary liquid explosives may not be caught by a beagle checking for food. You would have to expand the dog teams and pay for the long time it takes to find and train the dogs. Think of all those who bring back "duty free" bottles of booze - could it be something else? Unless you have every piece of luggage hand-searched by officers, but rely on the X-ray, things will be missed (look at TSA's horrible record of catching things on deliberate training tests). Front-line checking is not the cruise line, but those officers at the port who look at your papers and use the severely-out-of-date computer systems and programs (I used to work IT for several government contractors). I have 2 good friends who work for CBP - I love them - but that does not mean I trust their work ethic...

There is a "no fly" list that has many people mistakenly on it who have to jump through lots of hoops to get a Redress number and still get hassled. Is there a "no cruise" list? I've never heard of one.

 

Having additional documentation is not going to address your concern. The documentation requirement is solely to prove someone's citizenship and identity and it will not do anything else. DHS found closed loop cruises to present a low risk to the national security. I'll trust their assessment.

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You still haven't put forth anything that would make any sense about why anyone, especially an illegal alien, would forge a document to leave on a cruise that comes right back to the US. Illegal aliens don't routinely go on vacation and if they do they certainly aren't leaving the country they worked so hard to get into in the first place. They are not doing things to draw attention to themselves, which they most certainly would be doing if they went on a closed loop cruise. It makes even less sense for a US citizen to pay to have documents forged in order to go on a closed loop cruise. One of the intents of the REAL ID act is to make it harder to forge these documents.

How about someone who wants to go to another country and pick something up to bring back to the US, without using their real name / identity.

Getting something back via cruise ship is not unheard of - I saw a story recently where kilos of illegal drugs were seized from a cruise ship, and the passengers arrested.

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How does "tracking" someone help? Let's say John Doe fakes the DL and BC to go and pick up some illegal item. Now we have to assume he gets back on the ship with the illegal item. Then we get back to port. He presents the fake DL and BC as ID. Presumably he gets let in to the country because the illegal item isn't found. But if he was required to have a passport, he wouldn't be let into the country because? Or he would be "tracked" because?

 

Requiring him to have a passport doesn't change his ability to get something illegal into the country. Either his bags are scanned or they aren't.

 

 

See my answer above. What is the benefit of requiring folks to carry a passport?

 

Guess this is getting confusing for most of us as we are kind of mixing apples with oranges (I admit to doing this as well - not intentionally to confuse - it just happened).

 

Okay - passports allow the government to track where you have been. While one trip to the Middle East or to Mexico, Central or South America isn't a big deal - a history of going back and forth could be a red flag. IMO (and this is definitely only an opinion), someone with a history of going back and forth to a questionable country or city may be more likely to have their bags searched.

 

Also have to agree with slidergirl's post about the people checking (or not checking) documents. I could have been showing a dog license instead of a passport in Miami and I doubt if it would have been noticed.

 

My main point really has been that, if you plan on traveling out of the country, it may be wise to look into getting a passport. The wait time now seems to be 3 weeks or so while it is typically twice that in the Spring (when people are getting ready for their summer vacations). Before the Olympics in Brazil, getting a visa for that country took (in some cases) over two months (unrelated to the Olympics, I needed a new visa for Brazil and didn't think I'd get it in time for our cruise -- I've learned from that and won't wait until the last minute again).

 

Secondarily, there is a possibility (just my opinion) that closed loop cruises could end for a variety of reasons. We can debate those reasons endlessly but, it really does not hurt to at least think about the consequences that this would have on people without passports.

 

It does not matter if some of us think that forged document are used on closed loop cruises or not. There are so many reasons why this could be done. Maybe someone wants to get out of the United States and not return..... they could be a U.S. citizen (or not) trying to flee the country to avoid arrest........ they may want to bring back contraband ........ someone in the U.S. illegally may simply want to take a vacation without being caught and sent back to their home country. The list is endless.

 

Regardless of the reasons, perhaps now is a good time to at least think about getting a passport if you plan on cruising out of the country - even on a closed loop itinerary.

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Guess this is getting confusing for most of us as we are kind of mixing apples with oranges (I admit to doing this as well - not intentionally to confuse - it just happened).

 

Okay - passports allow the government to track where you have been. While one trip to the Middle East or to Mexico, Central or South America isn't a big deal - a history of going back and forth could be a red flag. IMO (and this is definitely only an opinion), someone with a history of going back and forth to a questionable country or city may be more likely to have their bags searched.

 

Also have to agree with slidergirl's post about the people checking (or not checking) documents. I could have been showing a dog license instead of a passport in Miami and I doubt if it would have been noticed.

 

My main point really has been that, if you plan on traveling out of the country, it may be wise to look into getting a passport. The wait time now seems to be 3 weeks or so while it is typically twice that in the Spring (when people are getting ready for their summer vacations). Before the Olympics in Brazil, getting a visa for that country took (in some cases) over two months (unrelated to the Olympics, I needed a new visa for Brazil and didn't think I'd get it in time for our cruise -- I've learned from that and won't wait until the last minute again).

 

Secondarily, there is a possibility (just my opinion) that closed loop cruises could end for a variety of reasons. We can debate those reasons endlessly but, it really does not hurt to at least think about the consequences that this would have on people without passports.

 

It does not matter if some of us think that forged document are used on closed loop cruises or not. There are so many reasons why this could be done. Maybe someone wants to get out of the United States and not return..... they could be a U.S. citizen (or not) trying to flee the country to avoid arrest........ they may want to bring back contraband ........ someone in the U.S. illegally may simply want to take a vacation without being caught and sent back to their home country. The list is endless.

 

Regardless of the reasons, perhaps now is a good time to at least think about getting a passport if you plan on cruising out of the country - even on a closed loop itinerary.

 

The government can track you just fine without a passport. The reason they didn't look at your passport closely is a simple one- they checked you out during the cruise and they found nothing wrong. Our documents have received the same cursory inspection regardless of which port we were using, again for the same reason- our information had already been checked and checked out. Someone that is here illegally is not going to take the risk at all of leaving the country because there is too much risk they will be picked up.

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The government can track you just fine without a passport. The reason they didn't look at your passport closely is a simple one- they checked you out during the cruise and they found nothing wrong. Our documents have received the same cursory inspection regardless of which port we were using, again for the same reason- our information had already been checked and checked out. Someone that is here illegally is not going to take the risk at all of leaving the country because there is too much risk they will be picked up.

 

Pleases explain how the government can tract you when using the name, birth certificate and drivers' license of a deceased person? This is being done all of the time (to say nothing of people stealing your identity - and you are still alive).

 

Agree that passports can be checked while onboard the ship. However, how do you check a birth certificate? Perhaps you can check to see if a person with that name and date of birth was born but there is little else information (especially when you have other falsified documents that appear to agree with the birth certificate). As I understand it, on a closed loop cruise, if you have a birth certificate that matches your drivers' license and maybe a fraudulent marriage certificate because you are married, you can get on the ship. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Taking risk is what all of this is about for someone here illegally. Using falsified paperwork is used every day for various reasons. While may be small risk to take a closed loop cruise to enable them to visit family, for many, it is simply worth the risk.

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Pleases explain how the government can tract you when using the name, birth certificate and drivers' license of a deceased person? This is being done all of the time (to say nothing of people stealing your identity - and you are still alive).

 

Agree that passports can be checked while onboard the ship. However, how do you check a birth certificate? Perhaps you can check to see if a person with that name and date of birth was born but there is little else information (especially when you have other falsified documents that appear to agree with the birth certificate). As I understand it, on a closed loop cruise, if you have a birth certificate that matches your drivers' license and maybe a fraudulent marriage certificate because you are married, you can get on the ship. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Taking risk is what all of this is about for someone here illegally. Using falsified paperwork is used every day for various reasons. While may be small risk to take a closed loop cruise to enable them to visit family, for many, it is simply worth the risk.

 

The birth certificate is only used to prove citizenship and it's the same document you would send in to get a passport, as is the drivers license, so conceivably your fictitious person has everything that they need to apply for a passport so if their documentation is really that good then that's what they should do (and of course your answer of requiring passports goes flying out the window when that happens;)). Again, DHS has access to the databases they need to verify things and if they can't be verified then that person will be detained for questioning after the cruise. No, someone here illegally doesn't stay here by taking risks, they stay off the radar as much as they can. DHS does keep records of those coming and going and have some pretty good computer programs that are used to spot patterns. Again, if this were the big issue you make it out to be than the closed loop exception never would have seen the light of day.

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I suppose that the most important thing is whether any database that is checked has information about whether a person is alive or dead and/or whether that person has been a victim of identify theft (doubt if identify theft is being tracked). You may be giving too much credit to databases. JMHO.

 

In terms is illegals in the U.S., I was raised in L.A. where hundreds of thousands of undocumented aliens did anything but live under the radar. They establish whatever identity seems to work for them and do just about everything that people with green cards and/or U.S. citizens can do (people in downtown L.A. are great at forging green cards).

 

Now that we live in Washington where there are fewer illegals (we do have quite a few from Russia but not many from Latin countries), they do stay more or less under the radar. Access to forged documents is not easy and is doubtful if they travel by plane or cruise ship.

 

I admit to having issues with closed loop cruises. IMO there is no reason to have them. It feels like a hole in the system that needs to be stopped.

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I suppose that the most important thing is whether any database that is checked has information about whether a person is alive or dead and/or whether that person has been a victim of identify theft (doubt if identify theft is being tracked). You may be giving too much credit to databases. JMHO.

 

In terms is illegals in the U.S., I was raised in L.A. where hundreds of thousands of undocumented aliens did anything but live under the radar. They establish whatever identity seems to work for them and do just about everything that people with green cards and/or U.S. citizens can do (people in downtown L.A. are great at forging green cards).

 

Now that we live in Washington where there are fewer illegals (we do have quite a few from Russia but not many from Latin countries), they do stay more or less under the radar. Access to forged documents is not easy and is doubtful if they travel by plane or cruise ship.

 

I admit to having issues with closed loop cruises. IMO there is no reason to have them. It feels like a hole in the system that needs to be stopped.

 

Millions of people travel every year on closed loop cruises with something other than a passport and have every year since the regulations took effect. I am sure that if there were any holes in the system they'd have been evident long before now. As DHS held, a US citizen on a closed loop cruise presents a low risk to the national security, whether you want to believe that or not. There are not a lot of people sneaking into the country via closed loop cruise, which is the only reason for requiring passport.

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Thanks for the info, I guess our state doesn't have the EDL's as of yet, I have to renew mine this year so i'll ask about the EDL at that point. So I guess at some point all states will issue the EDL because of the new requirement? I can imagine that would be pretty costly to do on each and every person applying for passports, thats a lot of people lol.
There are Real-ID compliant drivers licenses and there are Enhanced DLs.

 

Eventually states will issue Real-ID compliant licenses (assuming the non-compliant states can work through the legal and/or privacy issues that have prevented their compliance to date) but I think only border states will find it beneficial to offer EDLs (they're optional at higher cost where they're issued). An EDL acts more or less like a passport card for land crossings into Canada (and I assume Mexico).

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I wasn't going to post this on this particular thread but when I went to thread that asks if anyone from cruise ships has being detained..... I felt like I entered a war zone. Posters on that thread are bashing everything and everyone. Thankfully I can post here and, while some may disagree with me and debate the issues, you are all doing so in a kind way.

 

Okay - so, as you have probably heard on the news or read online, there were people detained in Port Canaveral today due to the "ban" (they were later released). I tried doing research and learned that at least some (if not all) of the passengers were on Majesty of the Seas on a closed-loop itinerary. The target people seemed to be Permanent Residents (i.e. Green Card) and in one case, had children born in the U.S. This could be one indication that closed-loop cruises may be targeted. Guess we'll learn more tomorrow, or the next day or ...............................

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I wasn't going to post this on this particular thread but when I went to thread that asks if anyone from cruise ships has being detained..... I felt like I entered a war zone. Posters on that thread are bashing everything and everyone. Thankfully I can post here and, while some may disagree with me and debate the issues, you are all doing so in a kind way.

 

Okay - so, as you have probably heard on the news or read online, there were people detained in Port Canaveral today due to the "ban" (they were later released). I tried doing research and learned that at least some (if not all) of the passengers were on Majesty of the Seas on a closed-loop itinerary. The target people seemed to be Permanent Residents (i.e. Green Card) and in one case, had children born in the U.S. This could be one indication that closed-loop cruises may be targeted. Guess we'll learn more tomorrow, or the next day or ...............................

 

The Orlando ABC station said it was nine people detained for 6 hours and subjected to additional scrutiny. They mentioned one was a Syrian Jew who had lived in the US for over 20 years and had children who were US Citizens.

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Guess we need to agree to disagree. Not a problem - it has still been a calm, debate which I appreciate!

 

Yes, it has been a civil debate and it's been refreshing. One last question- when DHS runs that phony drivers license number through the DMV database what do you think will happen? My guess is that it's not going to match any issued drivers license number and that particular passenger will face some questions when they return (which answers the question I asked before regarding why those folks with those great IDs don't just apply for passports- when the State Department checks the license it will result in a non-match).

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I wasn't going to post this on this particular thread but when I went to thread that asks if anyone from cruise ships has being detained..... I felt like I entered a war zone. Posters on that thread are bashing everything and everyone. Thankfully I can post here and, while some may disagree with me and debate the issues, you are all doing so in a kind way.

 

Okay - so, as you have probably heard on the news or read online, there were people detained in Port Canaveral today due to the "ban" (they were later released). I tried doing research and learned that at least some (if not all) of the passengers were on Majesty of the Seas on a closed-loop itinerary. The target people seemed to be Permanent Residents (i.e. Green Card) and in one case, had children born in the U.S. This could be one indication that closed-loop cruises may be targeted. Guess we'll learn more tomorrow, or the next day or ...............................

 

The majority of cruises originating in the US are closed loop cruises. I am willing to bet that all modes of transportation are "targeted".

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There are Real-ID compliant drivers licenses and there are Enhanced DLs.

 

Eventually states will issue Real-ID compliant licenses (assuming the non-compliant states can work through the legal and/or privacy issues that have prevented their compliance to date) but I think only border states will find it beneficial to offer EDLs (they're optional at higher cost where they're issued). An EDL acts more or less like a passport card for land crossings into Canada (and I assume Mexico).

 

The EDL, like the passport card, may be used for land crossings into Mexico and Canada and at sea ports of entry when returning from Canada, Mexico, Bermuda and the Caribbean. As with passports and passport cards EDLs have an RIFD chip in them.

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