Security on Viking?

My friend just returned from a 7 day cruise on Viking which originated in Lyon and ended there. She arrived in Nice the day before the terrorist attack and, fortunately, she was not in the area of the attack, on that day, although she was there the previous day. After going to Lyon to board the ship and in the following days of the cruise, she felt that Viking did not do enough to ensure her safety and feeling of security. While she is no novice to Viking River cruises, and has experienced the "rafting" that takes places on these river cruises, she felt that with the threats that are, unfortunately, part of of lives, today, she felt that there were areas in security that were lacking. The examples that she gave me were: while being tied to another Viking ship, people just walked through the ships without being checked and often there was no presence of people from the ship, even at the concierge/hospitality desk. On other ships she and I have had to have our cards scanned leaving and returning to the ship and this was not done. To not have a presence when passengers are departing or returning to the ship is concerning. I hope that the comments that she left on debarkation forms were read by Viking officials, as I now am rapidly approaching my Viking River cruise.

Viking staff knows does know who is on board. When you leave for a tour or go out on your own you pick up your room number pass (not sure what they really call it) and when you return you give it to the staff at the desk. If someone goes out without it, then its their own fault. Since your friend went on a few Viking cruises she would know this system by heart. Rafting that I have been part of have only been with other Viking ships and I doubt other lines would be able to walk thru your ship but you never know with special situations. You would hope another cruise line would help out if your ship could not dock where it should. If I remember correctly your room key opens the outside entrance doors after hours.

Sorry, but I think the concern is not warranted.

People go into grocery stores without "extra security".

People go into restaurants without " extra security".

People go into train stations without " extra security".

Bad guys can break into anyplace they want, with or without security.

If people are uncomfortable, or logical, or realistic, they should stay home. After all, nobody shoots up anybody there.

We leave fairly soon on our 8th Viking cruise and have done or booked a few other lines. You can raft next to any brand - it's up to the port master not the ship. We've never found it a problem but it's been a nuisance sometimes when you have to go up flights of outside stairs and back down rather than go straight through on the same level.

With Viking and Avalon we have almost always had staff greeting arrivals back on the ship when groups return but maybe not when individuals go on and off. We have had extra security posted in a couple of ports (we only cruise in Europe) especially in the evenings.

...nobody shoots up anyone there... I know what you mean but of course it may depend where you live? sadly reports of random violence seem to be daily. terrible 1 yesterday near Rouen in a church. 19 yr old cut the throat of an elderly priest. the offender was being monitored and on a terror watch list.

more needs to done in Europe to protect the innocent.

...more needs to done in Europe to protect the innocent.

I might venture to suggest that the statistics might show that the 'innocent' are a lot safer in Europe than in many other places around the world...

As others have said, it is misguided to assume that any extra precautions are warranted or needed.

I think I might just leave it there but thank you for your opinion.

If the Viking people were not present to prevent through walkers from entering the ship, then I hope Viking read her constructive criticism. Sounds like a particular ship lacked crew discipline and it needs to be addressed as my concern would be theft.

My Viking experience had crew stationed to prevent thru walkers from entering. I've noticed that other cruise lines where we were double docked also had people stationed.

If the Viking people were not present to prevent through walkers from entering the ship, then I hope Viking read her constructive criticism. Sounds like a particular ship lacked crew discipline and it needs to be addressed as my concern would be theft.

 

My Viking experience had crew stationed to prevent thru walkers from entering. I've noticed that other cruise lines where we were double docked also had people stationed.

Just off Viking Gefjon yesterday.....Budapest to Amsterdam. When groups returned there was someone at the door to either take your cards and/or offer a snack. If you didn't give your card or you entered at another time no one said anything. We "rafted" with Viking, AMA and Avalon. I was curious to see inside an Avalon ship and was able to walk around the public areas in the early evening and no one said anything. Several on our cruise were talking about security.....especially since we were sailing in Germany close to where the recent attacks occurred.

Good info. I'm not concerned about terrorists as Viking or AMA or Avalon people certainly aren't going to stop them, but the boats should be better protected from possible folks up to no good. Yes, the cabin doors are locked and safes are provided.

Good info. I'm not concerned about terrorists as Viking or AMA or Avalon people certainly aren't going to stop them, but the boats should be better protected from possible folks up to no good. Yes, the cabin doors are locked and safes are provided.

My view is that I am not concerned about the casual thief, but am concerned about the possibility of a terrorist specifically targeting a river boat. The reason why is fairly simple.

1. Terrorists have tended to target tourists (ISIS related groups seem to be doing that more then other groups have in the past)

2. The boats only have one entrance and exit so if they were attacked the passengers are trapped on board (unless they jump overboard)

3. They are docked in easily accessed areas, without security.

4. There is nothing to stop or delay anyone doing such an attack. Stop car near ship, run on board, etc. Nothing to hinder access at all.

5. If done the attack would be highly visible and most likely involve several countries, including Americans.

6. The ships have fairly predictable schedules as far as times in dock.

Do something as simple as putting a gate on the dock area controlled from the ship where returning passengers would have to have someone from the ship unlock it (remotely would be best) would reduce the chance of such an attack by making access uncertain. That by itself would greatly reduce potential and have them look else where.

While such an event is very low probability in happening to anyone person, and has not happened as of yet. Up to a couple of years ago you had not had an event targeting cruise ship excursions to a museum (Tunis). Why not add a relatively inexpensive feature to river boat docks (locked gates with remote control from ship) and greatly reduce the potential.

Do something as simple as putting a gate on the dock area controlled from the ship where returning passengers would have to have someone from the ship unlock it (remotely would be best) would reduce the chance of such an attack by making access uncertain. That by itself would greatly reduce potential and have them look else where.

Utterly pointless and not exactly simple either, even if the dock area is enclosed in the first place, which many (most?) are not...

The ships are on a river, access to the ship and dock area from the water is both simple and impossible to regulate...

We have too much 'security theater' as it is.

A ship comprised mostly of individual lockable cabins, which is largely empty most of the time it is docked is a lot less attractive than the monuments and historic sites that everyone left the ship to visit, the bus that they leave in, the city streets where the crowds are walking etc.

Do something as simple as putting a gate on the dock area controlled from the ship where returning passengers would have to have someone from the ship unlock it (remotely would be best) would reduce the chance of such an attack by making access uncertain. That by itself would greatly reduce potential and have them look else where.

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I personally would not want to travel on a river cruise where everything was in lock down mode like this. One of the great aspects of river cruising for me is docking in town centers and basically using the boat as a floating hotel. I would not expect a hotel to provide this type of controlled access, and I do not expect a river boat to do so.

<A ship comprised mostly of individual lockable cabins, which is largely empty most of the time it is docked is a lot less attractive than the monuments and historic sites that everyone left the ship to visit, the bus that they leave in, the city streets where the crowds are walking etc. >

I agree! These terrorists want easy prey and visible victims. Much of the time river boats have only staff and a few passengers aboard. It is the busier sites and cafes, etc., busy with people, where they can do the most damage.

My view is that I am not concerned about the casual thief, but am concerned about the possibility of a terrorist specifically targeting a river boat. The reason why is fairly simple.

 

1. Terrorists have tended to target tourists (ISIS related groups seem to be doing that more then other groups have in the past)

2. The boats only have one entrance and exit so if they were attacked the passengers are trapped on board (unless they jump overboard)

3. They are docked in easily accessed areas, without security.

4. There is nothing to stop or delay anyone doing such an attack. Stop car near ship, run on board, etc. Nothing to hinder access at all.

5. If done the attack would be highly visible and most likely involve several countries, including Americans.

6. The ships have fairly predictable schedules as far as times in dock.

 

Do something as simple as putting a gate on the dock area controlled from the ship where returning passengers would have to have someone from the ship unlock it (remotely would be best) would reduce the chance of such an attack by making access uncertain. That by itself would greatly reduce potential and have them look else where.

 

While such an event is very low probability in happening to anyone person, and has not happened as of yet. Up to a couple of years ago you had not had an event targeting cruise ship excursions to a museum (Tunis). Why not add a relatively inexpensive feature to river boat docks (locked gates with remote control from ship) and greatly reduce the potential.

No way any such prevents a planned attack. Boats are a soft target. The good news is that there are many more, better soft targets. I choose to have reasonably free access vs ineffectual measures that ruin the experience. There is enough Kabuki theater with TSA. Don't need to be reminded constantly when I'm on a cruise, especially when it is not enough to be effective.

Silliness . . . Just relax and enjoy your river cruise.

No way any such prevents a planned attack. Boats are a soft target. The good news is that there are many more, better soft targets. I choose to have reasonably free access vs ineffectual measures that ruin the experience. There is enough Kabuki theater with TSA. Don't need to be reminded constantly when I'm on a cruise, especially when it is not enough to be effective.

The point is to reduce the certainty of ease of access. That by itself would reduce the odds of target selection. A friend of mine runs an international corporate security consulting firm. According to him just doing something that adds a delay, lowers the chance of free access, increases complexity on an operation greatly reduces odd of an attack.

Odds of a boat attack on a river boat in Europe is very low becauseason of all three, complexity, ease of blocking access. And time delay. Not so for a docked boat with open access.

There are so many easy ways to do something awful, slowing down access, especially to groups able to get airport employee badges is negative to the vacationer while still leaving open many possibilities I will not enumerate for obvious reasons.

If you're that concerned, don't go. Of course also don't go to the shopping mall, theater...etc.

There are so many easy ways to do something awful, slowing down access, especially to groups able to get airport employee badges is negative to the vacationer while still leaving open many possibilities I will not enumerate for obvious reasons.

If you're that concerned, don't go. Of course also don't go to the shopping mall, theater...etc.

I have traveled in far worse places. One of the reasons why in my working career I (along with a number of other executives in the company I worked for) had to go through a number of training classes, including risk assessment, kidnap avoidance, etc.

Yes, there are lots of ways to do damage. There are also easy steps that greatly reduce risk of being a target. To put it simply the main purpose of a good security system is to prevent whatever it is you are securing from being a target.

I was recently in Buenos Aires in the Hilton. The hotel had no fewer then 2 and as many as 4 plain clothes security in the lobby area at any one time. They also had a number of other security mechanisms built into the facility. Things that most people would not even notice. Their security was designed for theft and violence prevention, not terrorism as primary focus, though it would probably be sufficient to deter the latter as well.

I was recently in Buenos Aires in the Hilton. The hotel had no fewer then 2 and as many as 4 plain clothes security in the lobby area at any one time. They also had a number of other security mechanisms built into the facility. Things that most people would not even notice. Their security was designed for theft and violence prevention, not terrorism as primary focus, though it would probably be sufficient to deter the latter as well.

There is a huge difference between the subtle and measured approach you describe here and the heavy-handed and ultimately both pointless and often impossible measures you proposed earlier.

It is the difference between ineffective and impractical 'theater' which you suggested and real security which you describe at the hotel.

One inconveniences and discomforts the traveler without adding meaningfully to their safety, the other is all but invisible to the traveler and provides a useful addition to their security...

There is a huge difference between the subtle and measured approach you describe here and the heavy-handed and ultimately both pointless and often impossible measures you proposed earlier.

 

It is the difference between ineffective and impractical 'theater' which you suggested and real security which you describe at the hotel.

 

One inconveniences and discomforts the traveler without adding meaningfully to their safety, the other is all but invisible to the traveler and provides a useful addition to their security...

The only thing I proposed is to put a gate on the docks where river boats dock. As with most security gates, one just walks off and through the gate, but requires someone from the boat to let you back on board. Now how exactly is that heavy handed. Best way would be at the entrance to the ramp (some have them, but are left open and used more to restrict access when the dock is not in use).

Someone walks up and the boat lets them on. Such a system would also have a bell/buzzer to get someones attention.

Now how exactly is that heavy handed? Walk off through the gate, ring a buzzer to get back on.

All it means is that someone can not run onto the boat without the ship pressing a button and unlocking the gate.

Docking like this is not uncommon. Where would a gate be located?

 

Docking like this is not uncommon. Where would a gate be located?

Easy. They can put up a SIGN that says 'Board through gate only'.

LOL - there are people that think that would work.

 

Docking like this is not uncommon. Where would a gate be located?

The logical place to put it is near the end of the dock near the shore (the ships individual dock). Far enough along the dock such that it can not be gotten around. a lot of the docking locations have a short pier that comes out from shore ending in a platform that the ship places its ramp on. Along the Rhine a number of these locations already have gates to prevent access to the platform when a ship is not docked. A bit more problematic in the locations where the ship just ties up to a deep wharf ( places like Amsterdam). Of course the large ports have their own security forces and patrols so maybe less of a need there.

The main point is to have a remote lock release that is controlled by the ship. too many problems with code entry gates, but a person operated control where the person is not next to the gate (not in a position to be threatened into opening it). Process would be auto unlocking on the way out, bill to request entry. If large numbers are coming in and out would be unlocked for the group to enter.

Key is to provide a recognized obstacle to unauthorized entry. Actually can be turned into a positive by the ship with the person controlling the gate greeting the passengers when they reach the ship.

Right.

Some poor unarmed Viking employee will be able to stop an as always determined, prepared, armed terrorist(s) because he/they lacks papers.

Right.

Some poor unarmed Viking employee will be able to stop an as always determined, prepared, armed terrorist(s) because he/they lacks papers.

You are missing the point. You stop an attack by creating obstacles such that they chose to go else where for easier targets. Most of the attacks in Europe have been targets of opportunity. You want to reduce the opportunity. As people have mentioned there are other targets you just want to reduce the attractiveness of this one.

If the gate is along the ramp. The attackers, if any are blocked, until they can get around the obstacle. That takes time, time reduces the chance of success. Gives time for police reaction. Gives time for people to lock doors, etc. As a friend of mine put it, in one course, a one minute delay might be the difference between escape and survival.

As far as the employee goes that is the reason for the remote. Operated from the ship. That way any threats is from a distance and where the employee can just stay inside. Harder to threaten someone from 20 feet away when they are inside and not easily visible. Especially since they need the person to unlock the gate. If I was a cruise line employee I would much rather have such a gate if someone was threatening me with a gun, then being in a situation where they could just run up to me.

The gate would not stop a determined group going after a specific target such as a kidnapping of a specific individual. But it would stop most of what has been happening in Europe lately, especially in Germany. The lone wolf type attacks. The large scale attack that occurred in Paris might be a different story, but even there they went for specific targets (publisher, Jewish cafe, etc.) that were pretty much open.