Silversea Water Cooler: Welcome! Part Two

And the longer the EU continues, the stronger the far rights foothold becomes.

I see what you mean about Austria. Dead Tie. Reminds me of another right winger who was born in Austria! What has Merkal triggered!!!

And the longer the EU continues, the stronger the far rights foothold becomes. I see what you mean about Austria. Dead Tie. Reminds me of another right winger who was born in Austria! What has Merkal triggered!!!

With all due respect to Les, which specific "right winger born in Austria" are you referencing? I strongly doubt that his major "problem" was as to whether he was "conservative" or not. In my view, it is a little much of an over-simplification to just loosely toss around terms just as "right" or "left" winger. Am I missing something? Was not that one party called the "National Socialist German Workers' Party"? Did read more on the two candidates in Austria. They are different, but neither seems that much as totally extreme, given the current legal and economic questions going on in Europe now.

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

Wonderful Kotor and nearby Montenegro? Check these postings. Have had over 28,931 views on this posting and appreciate those who have tuned-in and commented.:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1439193

Terry,

I think Les's description of the Austrian born artist who decided to invade Poland as a "right winger" is reasonably accurate.

Jeff

Terry, I think Les's description of the Austrian born artist who decided to invade Poland as a "right winger" is reasonably accurate. Jeff

With all due respect to Jeff, my definitions and understanding of the term "right winger" would NOT be the first, second or third phrases to be used for describing that German leader who invaded Poland, etc. I would call him psychotic, mega-evil and a murderer. In word history I checked, the political terms Right and Left were first used during the French Revolution. It referenced the seating arrangements in the French parliament. Those who sat to the right of the chair of the parliamentary head were more supportive of the institutions of the monarch, its hierarchy, traditions etc. Later, that term was more for those active in France to restoration the monarchy.

Maybe in Europe, some might use the term "right-wing" for extreme movements including fascists and racial supremacists. Here, however, in the United States "right-wing" has quite a totally different history and meaning. For the most part here, the American right wing is an integral part of the conservative movement in the U.S., including Ronald Reagan, etc., who have sought to limit the powers of government over our personal freedoms.

Possibly, we can agree to disagree? Depending from which side of the Atlantic we are viewing that type of political phrase??

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

Enjoyed a 14-day, Jan. 20-Feb. 3, 2014, Sydney to Auckland adventure, getting a big sampling for the wonders of "down under” before and after this cruise. Go to:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1974139

for more info and many pictures of these amazing sights in this great part of the world. Now at 143,108 views for this posting.

Terry,

That is two consecutive posts you have started with "all due respect".

:D

Jeff

Terry, That is two consecutive posts you have started with "all due respect". :D Jeff

But, do not BOTH of you deserved "respect" for your intelligence, good taste and class?

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

For details and visuals, etc., from our July 1-16, 2010, Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle cruise experience from Copenhagen on the Silver Cloud, check out this posting. This posting is now at 198,494 views.

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

......... or perhaps it is because you as an American are correcting two Englishman with respect to their usage of English?

:)

Jeff

......... or perhaps it is because you as an American are correcting two Englishman with respect to their usage of English? :) Jeff

It is totally impossible for those of us on this side of the Atlantic to correct proper Englishmen on their use of the English language. Just a different viewpoint on history and how it is applied to twenty-first century political "science".

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

Did a June 7-19, 2011, cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Dozens of nice visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc. We are now at 213,044 views for this live/blog re-cap, including much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

Terry,

You as an American, are correcting two English Europeans discussing European politics in English. Good luck. And goodnight.

Jeff

Terry, I can only think there must be a confusion on the meaning of the terms ultra or extreme right wing and ultra or extreme left wing means?

Without wanting Godwin's law thrown ay me, the German Nationalist Party was a pretty extreme party who promoted nationalism and bigotry. It applies to both ends of the political spectrum and at times its probably difficult to see there are some quite similar traits despite both thinking they are polar opposites.

In general terms extreme right wing is still viewed with sceptism and disdain. The people who want this kind of politics will likely be full of admiration for the aforementioned Austrian and people generally are fearful of amy sort of return.

To put things into context with something you will know of, fear and dislike. The KKK is an example of what's being feared here. Hoffer may not be like the other Austrian, but supporters of his no doubt cling to his apron strings and wishing his rise is a rebirth!!

Ok, no one is walking around wearing white pajamas and burning crosses, but the same bigotry is present. Hoffer might not be as extreme and we are being unfair here, but extremism is unquestionably on the rise. Look up Le Pen ... Just one of many gaining in strength.... And the French are getting very nervy about her (and her father).

Now to try to explain the context and relevance to the Brexit and In comparing on the EU.....

People who are right wingers will be 100% behind leaving. It doesn't sit comfortable siding with people like this. The notion that my enemies enemy is my friend, is not really the case... But the in side are keen to promote the idea that voting out makes you a right winger and using the racist card because migration is a massive part of the dissatisfaction.

Currently, any EU citizen can uproot and settle in any other EU country. In countries of similar standards and expectations, generally it's not an issue. But introduce an ever growing number of ex eastern block countries.... And the knowledge we give so much in benefits and free medical care and it becomes a potential time bomb. No one blames anyone for wanting to better themselves, but economies are not charities and ultimately its the tax payer who funds it.

I don't know how the North American boarder works. But a classic and easy to understand comparison for you. Id expect you wouldn't be too sad if there was freedom of movement with your Canadian Friends to the North. But would you feel the same if that status quo existed to the south and your neighbours from Mexico.

Ok, there is far more on the battlefield than just migration, but its a major part of it. Ironically the rise of right wing politics is being associated with brexit and used against "us". I have no doubt, if we remain, it will increase right wing support so a strange scenario. Far from it being something brexit promotes, I think it would be the safety valve and remove that dangerous trend in the UK if brexit won. And to be fair, extreme right wing politics isn't as prevalent in the UK as some EU countries.

Im aware that political discussions are frowned on in general on here and understandably so. With that in mind, if you want to chat in email im happy to do so. Im by no means an expert as you can tell.... So most of what I might say is just my opinion. If you'd like to do that, my throwaway email address is cruise-trip@europe.com (I couldn't get brexit.com) lol

No problem if you'd rather not.

Les

I do admire your succinct and detailed reply to Terry. I couldn't have put it better myself. As a passionate Brexter I am to the right of centre but certainly not extreme. Also within the Brexit camp are a number of Left wing believers who are worried about the erosion of workers rights etc so it would be true to say that we are a cross section as is the in campaign.

Jane

Terry,

overlaid over Les's description, we have just increased legal miminum wages in the UK which makes the least anyone can earn roughly twice as much as average earnings in some of the countries that have a right to settle here.

There has also been a "cover up" on the actual numbers of people from EU countries seeking employment here. We were told that 250,00 EU citizens settled here in 2015, which is by some accounts 10 times as many as we expected, but the government issued 655,00 National Insurance numbers to EU citizens in 2015.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/reality-check/2016/feb/26/cover-up-uk-migration-figures-reality-check

https://fullfact.org/europe/can-we-trust-immigration-figures/

Jeff

Les

I do admire your succinct and detailed reply to Terry. I couldn't have put it better myself. As a passionate Brexter I am to the right of centre but certainly not extreme. Also within the Brexit camp are a number of Left wing believers who are worried about the erosion of workers rights etc so it would be true to say that we are a cross section as is the in campaign.

 

Jane

Hi Jane... Yes I agree there is a big cross section in both camps, though I would disagree with the take the left voters are in the brexit camp for fear of workers rights. Id strongly think it was the opposite and for me the biggest pro "in" argument and one I do have concerns with. (as a socialist)

I do have to laugh at the desperation from Cameron though predicting WW3 if we left... Though worrying to hear Trump suggesting we should leave!

It's a mix bag.

Terry, I can only think there must be a confusion on the meaning of the terms ultra or extreme right wing and ultra or extreme left wing means? In general terms extreme right wing is still viewed with sceptism and disdain.

Appreciate Les' very good summary on the "confusion" about the terms and their meanings about "extreme" and "ultra". Here in the U.S., there is more "polarization" between and against those of liberal and conservative viewpoints. In debating or maybe only "talking", the short-cut in trying to make your substantive points is to do a little "name-calling". If you do not like a comment by someone on the other side, you call them "extreme". That naturally irritates the other side!!

Having done lots of debate prep and media show work, I know that the political/media world has gotten more divided and combative. People are always looking for cute "phrases" and "sound-bites", plus sharp attack points. There are lots of reasons and factors. BUT, I am now needing to get ready for several meetings today, plus other "normal people" on these boards might not want us to be going too deep on these subjects. We definitely could share more for how and why the political discussions are so polarized these days. Thanks to Les for the offer to chat more off-line.

Appreciate the added background and comments from Jane and Jeff. Agree with Les' comment that many of these issues can be a "mixed bag". We will see more today for how the mail-in votes tip the balance in Austria. Then, there will be the months ahead to see how either the older, left-wing Green economics professor . . . OR . . . the younger, right-winger aeronautical engineer actually work and govern for their country. Many times there are differences from the campaign rhetoric . . . versus . . . the actual practices once in public office.

THANKS for the sharing and chance to clarify more! Will continue to follow these EU and UK issues closely. Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

From our Jan. 25-Feb. 20, 2015, Amazon River-Caribbean combo sailing over 26 days that started in Barbados, here is the link below to that live/blog. Lots of great visuals from this amazing Brazil river and these various Caribbean Islands (Dutch ABC's, St. Barts, Dominica, Grenada, etc.) that we experienced. Check it out at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2157696

Now at 39,363 views for these postings.

Looks like an Independent candidate has won in Austria.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36362505

All clear: Hofer lost by 31,026 votes. :D:) Boy was that close.....

Terry - please don't dispel an important myth: all Austrians want the world to believe that Hitler was a German and Beethoven is an Austrian! ;)

Jeff - if the UK votes to stay, can the rest of the EU vote to kick them out? :rolleyes:

Probably only if there is an election and a party wins having promised a referendum.

Jeff

Regarding the discussion above between Jeff, Les, and Terry: here are some thoughts from 2015, by Jonah Goldberg, (American author of the book “Liberal Fascism”), who writes for a “conservative” American magazine, National Review, (which BTW has been very anti-Trump right from the beginning), on whether or not “fascism" is “right wing” or not (he says no)

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/417926/was-fascism-right-wing-again-jonah-goldberg

He is responding to an article by blogger “Pseudoerasmus” (who said yes, it is, link to that article is included in Goldberg’s first paragraph)

Some of the “comments” by readers below Goldberg’s article are also very interesting, a lot of back and forth

As someone who had family murdered first by Communists (wrong politics, wrong ethnicity), and then by invading Fascists, and whose father spent years in a slave labor camp under the Germans (wrong ethnicity,barely surviving), I prefer to just call them all birds of a feather power-hungry tyrants who manipulate circumstances and people to suit their needs. When there is worship of the collective and you are advised that you live for the state (or maybe don’t live at all), whatever the intricate justifications, when the press is censored, and when opposition parties are suppressed, personal liberty is gone, and no matter how you torture the linguistic debates (in the English speaking UK or the English speaking USA), it is ultimately very bad news for the common man. I think one needs to be vigilant to early signs of government or aspiring government actors (regardless of what they call themselves) trying to control their citizens’ movement, thought, actions, and speech, but this does not mean one cannot respect borders, language and culture, part of the concerns in some of the pro-Brexit voters.

The sad situation in Venezuela, for example, illustrates how previously articulated alleged good intentions easily deteriorate into tyranny and restrictions of liberty (not to mention having to spend half a month’s salary on toilet paper, if you can find it):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/21/venezuela-how-the-socialist-paradise-turned-into-debt-and-hyperi/

Related thoughts on ostriches (real and metaphorical):

I learned on our South Africa trip on the Europa 2, when we went to a local ostrich farm, that it is a myth that ostriches stick their heads in the sand. If you see them with their heads down, it may look like they are hiding, but they are just turning their eggs over, where they rest in the sand.

DH took this picture of very upright ostriches, one of which kept his mouth closed, the other appears to possibly have been trying to say something about plans for him to become ostrich steak :)

Finally, though in the UK and in the USA we all speak “English", there are of course different idioms and expressions and there can be different meanings of some words and phrases. When I looked at the food picture posts on the Cooler, I told DH I was so inspired by them that DH and I went to dinner and “got stuffed”. However, a young beautiful American female graduate student spending a year in the UK told me she was pretty embarrassed when someone had asked her how she had spent the weekend, as she had been going from restaurant to restaurant with her local friends, she had said, “Oh, I spent it getting stuffed”.

Finally, though in the UK and in the USA we all speak “English", there are of course different idioms and expressions and there can be different meanings of some words and phrases. When I looked at the food picture posts on the Cooler, I told DH I was so inspired by them that DH and I went to dinner and “got stuffed”. However, a young beautiful American female graduate student spending a year in the UK told me she was pretty embarrassed when someone had asked her how she had spent the weekend, as she had been going from restaurant to restaurant with her local friends, she had said, “Oh, I spent it getting stuffed”.

This answers that - and is so true!

So many innocent words have quite profound different meanings and in everyday use. I can always remember the look on the barmans face when a friend innocently said he was going outside for a fag. All was well when it was all explained, but I think his first reaction was one of disgust and disbelief at his declaration! (And we were aware of the US meaning - but the word is in such normal everyday use, it doesn't warrant a second thought. I can recall Jeff posting photos on here of some tasty phaggots. (Sorry about the spelling, but these scrumptious morsels are swear filter banned! Who'd have thought! Heres some recipies....

But its not all one way. Fanny is something that will raise eyebrows. I expect most of us know the double meanings here!

On your comment about extreme Left or Right, I did say in a previous post that there becomes a point where its confusing which is left and which is right as the outlook is not too dissimilar in many things being promoted. I'm guessing you may just have been saying either is just bad (which is of course true)

It was interesting on the news this evening after they showed the Austrian result, they wend across Europe showing percentage of votes the Right wing are now attracting. There is no doubt in my mind this rise is mostly down to the EU, its policies on migration and open boarders and Merkels invite.

Close the quango down. Make it a common market, which is all we signed up and agreed for and the Right wing pressure valve is release and concerns die.

Les,

One of the reasons why we choose and prefer to use the term "far right" is because it doesn't add much to the debate by calling unfairly half the population that voted for Hofer Fascist supporters.

Jeff

Les,

 

One of the reasons why we choose and prefer to use the term "far right" is because it doesn't add much to the debate by calling unfairly half the population that voted for Hofer Fascist supporters.

 

Jeff

Of course. And in a two horse race, if you disagree with ecological claptrap, that was the only alternative.

If you're not a fan of Hilary and not going to vote for her, it doesnt make you a nut case if you vote for Trump, though I'm unsure if that holds much water! lol

Thought I'd belatedly post today's lunch. BBQ'ed Scottish rainbow trout and stuff......... hope CL54 is nudged by it ...

:)

Jeff

Yum!

We had friends from Canada come down for the long weekend (Victoria Day) so it has been a foodfest for the past few days. We introduced them to our two favorite restaurants for dinner on Saturday and Sunday, as well as the local Biergarten for Sunday lunch. So we were most definitely stuffed (in the American sense, mind you!) this weekend. :D

We also went through plenty of wine, and I had some help finishing an old bottle of Scotch. Very productive; it's always good to rotate your stock. Now it's payback as I am working the Holiday weekend.

Catlover54, I enjoyed your post. I agree that both extreme right and extreme left policies can devolve into a major infringement on personal rights. Extremes are rarely a good thing it seems.

The conversation re: the Brexit has been very interesting and I wll be watching the referendum with interest. Obviously the Eurozone and its varying nuances (Schengen, the Euro, etc) all add a major convenience factor for us when traveling. But I don't pretend to know enough history to figure out whether it's the right thing to do on many other levels.

A very complex issue - the shared commonality seems to shrink as the Eurozone grows ever bigger. At least that is my outsider's view.

Today in a sunny La Cucina, mortadella, prosciutto, anchovies, surimi, and a Greek salad with far to much feta and some Picpoul.

Jeff

It all looks so fresh and delicious. Tonight I shall take the flesh off a pheasant and cook with onions, mushrooms and creme fraiche. No pic I'm afraid.

Jane