newmexicoNita Posted April 27, 2015 #26 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Once upon a time, NCL would run specials where the 3rd. and 4th. (or additional) pax should sail for as low $99 + taxes/fees/port charges + DSC. That was, of course, many, many, many moons ago but surely, old-timers like us remember. Sometimes, these deals for a typical 7 night sailing would be $199 - not as good but still, easy enough to calculate - then, when it went up to $299 p/p - not as good when you are squeezing 3 or 4 into those inside cabins on the Dawn/Jewel class ships. Some of the specials were supposed to be for "kids" only (of all ages ...) The rest is history when the formula on how they "compute" the rates to come up these 50% off promo. Go back a few years on CC threads - it should be around & made for fun history lessons, then & now. Most definitively very creative then and now ... (no comments) actually not so many moons ago. There have been those specials in recent years as well. Of course they are few and far between, why would any cruise line that isn't having a lot of trouble offer those promos when the ships are going out full without the promos? Now we see other pormos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newmexicoNita Posted April 27, 2015 #27 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) Let me give a quick example of another line and their advertising. And no I don't think it was deceiving, just a bit tricky. They advertised up to 50% off Alaskan cruises. Well, yes there were prices 50% off, but the 50% off was based on high season prices and were only available the first 2 sailings of the season and the last sailing. Actually the price was about identical to the regular early season prices. Or we go to our favorite dept store and find a rack of close 50% off and we have a 30% off coupon. Wow, we are getting 80% off. The catch is; no one would ever have paid the retail price anyway or most of the time they would not. Let me make this clear, I am not defending the policy, whether NCL does it or any other line does. What I am saying is: advertising isn't always what it appears to be. Yes, we do save on some of these promos, but not as much as we want to think we will. It is more, than being a cheerleader for me, it is being a realist. Edited April 27, 2015 by newmexicoNita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvtheships Posted April 27, 2015 #28 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Lets face it...Ncl is changing Deceiving....tricky....unpublished.... Not good words to describe any business IMHO Sent from my iPhone using Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zqvol Posted April 27, 2015 #29 Share Posted April 27, 2015 On certain of its cruises, Norwegian Cruise Lines offers "half price" for the third and fourth occupants of a cabin. Logically, this would mean that if a family were to take their two children on a cruise, then the price for each of the two children would be half of the fare of the two adults. In fact, the two children do NOT pay half of the adult fare, but pay half of something called the "revenue calculation" fare which, of course, is a much higher amount. So on a currently advertised cruise in which the adult fare is $900, the children's "half fare" ended up being $675 rather than the $450 any logical shopper would expect. This is a blatantly dishonest offer that is being made by Norwegian Cruise Lines and prospective cruisers should be aware of the fact before booking on the NCL web site.:mad: If you read all the fine print you will discover that the 50% off is off of the brochure rate. There is nothing deceptive nor dishonest about the offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvtheships Posted April 27, 2015 #30 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) If you read all the fine print you will discover that the 50% off is off of the brochure rate. There is nothing deceptive nor dishonest about the offer. Except that nobody ever pays the brochure rate in the first place and 3/4 pax are usually much lower priced than 50% off brochure rate for the vast majority of cruises anyway without any sort of deal at all Also the poster you quoted said...any logical shopper....which totally makes sense....however even a logical shopper....when dealing with Ncl these days....is dealing with a large company that is acting very illogical and doing their best to turn longtime customers away and only wants to entice uninformed newbie cruisers that will honestly believe that this So called 3/4 pax deal is actually a deal when in fact it is not. Now a true ksf is still a deal and that is all I will book anyway When all the dust settles Ncl will emerge as a totally different type of cruise line IMHO Fortunately there are many others to pick from and it's not like they are the only price gouging gas station for the next 200 miles. Lol Sent from my iPhone using Forums Edited April 27, 2015 by luvtheships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raleigh Traveler Posted April 27, 2015 #31 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Unfortunately it is far too common. Knowing that things are not always as they seem, I always email the PCC and ask for a quote. A while back I asked for the AARP discount that was listed as 10%. When the PCC replied, the quote seemed to show a 5% discount. I asked for clarification as 5 is different from 10. His reply was, "The discount is on the cruise fare MINUS NON-COMM FARE which is $240 per person making the discount $36 per person or $72 total." Who has ever heard of a NON-COMM FARE? I have yet to find it in any fine print. I asked the PCC to further clarify and the second reply, "I am only here to help. I do not have additional information in writing." Meaning he could not supply any support for the way they creatively advertise and apply the discount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanote Posted April 27, 2015 #32 Share Posted April 27, 2015 According to some state consumer protection laws, a company cannot mark up a product to put it on sale. NCL would have to sell the 3rd and 4th pax at a higher rate in the normal course of business in order to mark it down (50% off or KSF). According to this article, Kohl’s department store was pursued by Attorneys General in California and Massachusetts for just such a practice. http://www.jsonline.com/business/kohls-loses-appeal-in-california-false-advertising-lawsuit-b9922979z1-209605461.html Now, I am not passing judgment because I do not know at what price NCL sells 3rd and 4th pax for when there is not a promotion. However, some of the posters seemed to be indicating that the 3rd and 4th pax are usually less than the 1st and 2nd and become priced higher during a promotion or sale. If this is truly the case, than some state’s consumer protection laws might consider this practice as deceptive and unlawful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonvoyagie Posted April 27, 2015 #33 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The practice of changing rates on the 3+ pax for a promotion is not new - in addition to my current cruise they did the same thing back in 2012 on my AK cruise. The biggest change I have seen is the website showing the ave fare pp instead of the actual fare pp. When I started cruising in -02 you could not do anything yourself on line, there were no PCCs and you had to find a TA to book your cruise. Everything was done with huge multi page full color brochures - these were published once every year. I remember the brochure listed the various prices showing the peak and shoulder seasons. The only way to get a discount was the Early Booking Fare which was a fixed % off the brochure rate. I don't remember all of these sale of sails and other hype. However that was also when a 2000 pax ship was large :D. BTW they did publish the 3+ pax rates in the fine print of the brochures. It is probably around on the web site too - just very well hidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeenut Posted April 27, 2015 Author #34 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) Sorry to say but it's you doing the remarkable mathematical gymnastics. I'm not saying that the non-discounted price for 3rd and up was reasonable, but it's you who is still insisting on comparing apples to oranges. 1st and 2nd passenger prices never have anything to do with 3rd and up prices so those are simply not comparable no matter how you try to twist it. Nowhere does it say that the price of discounted passengers would be 50% off from 1st and 2nd pax prices, you're making that incorrect assumption yourself. (End quote of Demonyte) With the number of NCL cruises you have taken, I can appreciate the fact that you well understand the "special techniques" used by NCL and others to price their cruises. But in most other areas of human commerce, a prospective buyer who reads "Extra Stateroom Guests are Half-Price" would fairly presume that the language means exactly what it says. We should let other cruise critics cast their votes: Who is doing the "twisting"? Zeenut or NCL? Edited April 27, 2015 by zeenut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3XX1XY Posted April 27, 2015 #35 Share Posted April 27, 2015 As the author of the original post, I am quite surprised that several of those who replied came to the defense of the cruise line, even employing some remarkable mathematical gymnastics in order to do so. Here are the facts which you can check if you want to go to the NCL web site and do your own calculations. Take, for example, the June 19-26, 2016 cruise on the Epic. We can ignore the port charges, as they will be the same per passenger regardless of how many persons occupy the cabin and regardless of the fare that they pay NCL. If two adults take the cruise, the price is $899 x 2 for a total of $1798. At the bottom of the chart, it states clearly: "Extra Stateroom Guests are Half-Price." In the school I attended, half of $899 would be $449.50. So the total fare to be paid by the four occupants should be $899 + $899+ $449.50 + $449.50 for a total of $2697. So now, let's go ahead and change the number of guests on the web site to FOUR. The NCL website calculates the new fare automatically, and it comes out to $3137 (again ignoring the port charges). That is $440 more than $2697. If you accept the fact that the two adults are still paying $899 apiece, then the two kids are paying $669.50 each and NOT $449.50. Call it what you want but I call it deceptive and dishonest. So, let me ask the stout NCL defenders: If you took your family out to dinner to a buffet in which the adults pay $18.00 per meal, and the kids eat for "half price", how would you react when you got the check and the restaurant charged you $15.00 for each child because they declared that the kids pay half the price of something called the "revenue calculation"? Based on the responses to my original post, I guess some folks would think that was just fine! :) You are the one doing amazing math gymnastics. On this particular cruise when you select the lowest level of stateroom at $899, you are correct, the total for 2 people IS 1798. However when you go over to try to book 4 people in this same room, it's not allowed. There are none available for 4 people. Instead, we have to move up a few categories to a family inside room which costs $919pp which comes out to $1838. When I go back and book 4 people in the very same room it is $785 pp which comes out to $3137, and I have no doubt that this is what you mistakenly did before. In any case the math is still a little weird in that one would think the rate for 4 people would be 2 x the 2 person rate ( so 2 * $1838 = $3676)... but instead it is actually $3137. So really the math works out in the customers favor indicating that minimally, they are not charging MORE initially for passengers 3 and 4. When you go on their website to compare prices it's really key that you make sure you have the same room category selected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emcelh Posted April 27, 2015 #36 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Lets face it...Ncl is changing Deceiving....tricky....unpublished.... Not good words to describe any business IMHO Sent from my iPhone using Forums Agree, not good but all too common in many industries. I spent almost 40 years in the travel industry and this kind of advertising has existed for as long as I can remember. You really have to read the fine print. I don't think NCL is changing. It's always been this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.S.Oceanlover Posted April 27, 2015 #37 Share Posted April 27, 2015 where can one find these brochure prices listed? Is there anywhere online? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovetotravel1977 Posted April 27, 2015 #38 Share Posted April 27, 2015 you are the one doing amazing math gymnastics. On this particular cruise when you select the lowest level of stateroom at $899, you are correct, the total for 2 people is 1798. However when you go over to try to book 4 people in this same room, it's not allowed. There are none available for 4 people. Instead, we have to move up a few categories to a family inside room which costs $919pp which comes out to $1838. When i go back and book 4 people in the very same room it is $785 pp which comes out to $3137, and i have no doubt that this is what you mistakenly did before. In any case the math is still a little weird in that one would think the rate for 4 people would be 2 x the 2 person rate ( so 2 * $1838 = $3676)... But instead it is actually $3137. So really the math works out in the customers favor indicating that minimally, they are not charging more initially for passengers 3 and 4. When you go on their website to compare prices it's really key that you make sure you have the same room category selected. this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budget Queen Posted April 27, 2015 #39 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Some seem to think that the 3/4th person rates are fixed. They are NOT. With a boat load of 3/4th's the rates go UP, with some cabins- having these rates HIGHER than the first two. I have seen this several times. With the amount of people taking advantage of this promotion, certainly, you can find what you "expect" to not be available. There are also cases- where the "lowest" cabin isn't available either for more than double occupancy. Rates would be "more" in this case as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvtheships Posted April 27, 2015 #40 Share Posted April 27, 2015 where can one find these brochure prices listed? Is there anywhere online? Bill Expedia shows them Sent from my iPhone using Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvtheships Posted April 27, 2015 #41 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) Agree, not good but all too common in many industries. I spent almost 40 years in the travel industry and this kind of advertising has existed for as long as I can remember. You really have to read the fine print. I don't think NCL is changing. It's always been this way. Yes I agree it has been going on forever and as a frequent traveler I of course am able to deal with it and/or know ways to work around it Cruises. Land trips. Airfares etc. it all the same and the savvy traveler knows this and doesn't always take the bait Of course there are those " once in a lifetime " lol travelers that pay a fortune for what I know I can pay 1/3 for.....and Ncl is courting that newbie IMHO because they don't understand the pricing system Just as in a trip to Disney....a once in a lifer thinks its massively expensive because they pay for everything at rack rate..... Whereas a seasoned Disneyworld goer gets....30% off the room....the free meal plan....and free park hoppers or some combo thereof ...knows what magic bands and fast passes are and doesn't wait on any 90 minute lines..... And comes home excited to go back Whereas as an uninformed Disneyworld newbie patron comes back saying never again 😎 Sent from my iPhone using Forums Edited April 27, 2015 by luvtheships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.S.Oceanlover Posted April 27, 2015 #42 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Expedia shows them Sent from my iPhone using Forums Thank you.:) Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Va. Plumber Posted April 27, 2015 #43 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I want to go on record before everyone jumps me. I am a cheerleader. There I've said it. Had nothing but positive experiences with NCL. Also, I realize that what I looked at was not the same promotion as what O.P. discussed. However, I looked at two different cruises from Miami for January 2016. Price for mid-ship balcony with UDP was exactly the same total for four as it was for two. Only change was port fees. Sounds like the big bad cruise line shafting the public again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.S.Oceanlover Posted April 27, 2015 #44 Share Posted April 27, 2015 I want to go on record before everyone jumps me. I am a cheerleader. There I've said it. Had nothing but positive experiences with NCL. Also, I realize that what I looked at was not the same promotion as what O.P. discussed. However, I looked at two different cruises from Miami for January 2016. Price for mid-ship balcony with UDP was exactly the same total for four as it was for two. Only change was port fees. Sounds like the big bad cruise line shafting the public again. When it said 3rd/4th free did you expect it to say the cost of the 3rd/4th pax were $300pp?:confused: When it says free there aren't many ways to spin that. Not like the 50% off non sale. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare nbsjcruiser Posted April 27, 2015 #45 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Hey, you want to see a scam? Pop on over to RCL for one of their WOW sales. One of their favourite tricks is to up the price and then offer a "sale" on those cruises that is actually higher than it was before the sale. WOW. Its an appropriate name for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeenut Posted April 27, 2015 Author #46 Share Posted April 27, 2015 You are the one doing amazing math gymnastics. On this particular cruise when you select the lowest level of stateroom at $899, you are correct, the total for 2 people IS 1798. However when you go over to try to book 4 people in this same room, it's not allowed. There are none available for 4 people. Instead, we have to move up a few categories to a family inside room which costs $919pp which comes out to $1838. When I go back and book 4 people in the very same room it is $785 pp which comes out to $3137, and I have no doubt that this is what you mistakenly did before. In any case the math is still a little weird in that one would think the rate for 4 people would be 2 x the 2 person rate ( so 2 * $1838 = $3676)... but instead it is actually $3137. So really the math works out in the customers favor indicating that minimally, they are not charging MORE initially for passengers 3 and 4. When you go on their website to compare prices it's really key that you make sure you have the same room category selected. I appreciate this explanation. What NCL is doing is offering a special rate for Passengers 1 and 2 in their lowest price inside room, and offering half-price for Passengers 3 and 4 BUT THERE ARE NO INSIDE ROOMS ON THE EPIC AT THE 899 RATE THAT WILL ACCOMMODATE four passengers! So the NCL Computer automatically "upgrades" the shopper to the more expensive FAMILY INSIDE ROOM. Classic bait and switch. But I'm sorry to say that the math still does not work out. As you have said, if two persons book an INSIDE FAMILY ROOM, it is 919 x 2 = 1838. If NCL were to honor its offer: "EXTRA STATEROOM GUESTS ARE HALF-PRICE", then the cost SHOULD BE 919 + 919 + 459.50 +459.50=$2757. Instead the NCL computer delivers a price of $3138. So passengers 3 and 4 are actually paying $650.00 each instead of $459.50. And you are trying to convince me that this is working out "in the customer's favor" and I should be overjoyed at paying $3138 instead of $3676? (919 x 4) Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvtheships Posted April 27, 2015 #47 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) I want to go on record before everyone jumps me. I am a cheerleader. There I've said it. Had nothing but positive experiences with NCL. Also, I realize that what I looked at was not the same promotion as what O.P. discussed. However, I looked at two different cruises from Miami for January 2016. Price for mid-ship balcony with UDP was exactly the same total for four as it was for two. Only change was port fees. Sounds like the big bad cruise line shafting the public again. Nope what you looked at was a true ksf promo I got a true ksf for the gem in jan 16 2 pax in same cabin was exactly the same price as 3 or 4 pax Thus a true ksf A half off ksf is a farce as they are giving half off an artificially inflated 3/4 pax rate Comparing true ksf with half off 3/4 is an apples to oranges analysis Pax will be surprised to find out its cheaper for a family if 4 to get 2 cabins versus one cabin under 3/4 pax half off promo I like Ncl too..... And I love my kids too.... But I don't even let my kids try to fool me Sent from my iPhone using Forums Edited April 27, 2015 by luvtheships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvtheships Posted April 27, 2015 #48 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) When it said 3rd/4th free did you expect it to say the cost of the 3rd/4th pax were $300pp?:confused: When it says free there aren't many ways to spin that. Not like the 50% off non sale. Bill You know it's funny that so many posters actually think that 3/4 pax free .....is the same thing as.... 3/4 pax half off They are 2 different promos depending on ship date Itin etc and are calculated under 2 different mathematical processes... Must be common core. Lol It took me some time but I booked a true ksf on the gem as opposed to the other promo which was being offered on the ba....which was 3/4 half off 2 separate promos.....only Ncl is not exactly advertising it that way My hope is that the ba for January will at some point go to a true ksf and then of course I jump on it and cancel the gem. 👍 Sent from my iPhone using Forums Edited April 27, 2015 by luvtheships Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StolidCruiser Posted April 27, 2015 #49 Share Posted April 27, 2015 And you are trying to convince me that this is working out "in the customer's favor" and I should be overjoyed at paying $3138 instead of $3676? (919 x 4) Huh? Yeah - pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
$hip$hape Posted April 27, 2015 #50 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) All the discounts, promotions, special prices, etc., mean nothing. Add up all your fixed costs and estimated spending, including all the discounts, etc., divide the total by the number of passengers, then divide again by the number of days. This is your net bottom line price per passenger, per diem. Use this number to compare to similar numbers with various cruises on the same cruise line, other cruise lines, etc., for any number of passengers and any number of days. I agree with your kind of math. Then, add in what DW( the one who must be obeyed) wants to do, and it all gets thrown out the window.;) Total All the vacation costs... remember to add the cost of flights. Viking River Cruise Package next year with FREE FLIGHTS: total vacation total $800.00pp per day (group discount rate):-) Edited April 27, 2015 by $hip$hape Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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