How is it Possible That a Container Ship Collided with a USN Destroyer Near Japan?

Re: USMMA

 

DH is a deckie grad. This past Saturday his Great Lakes Alumni Assoc. hosted a picnic for incoming plebes & class of '17 grads from Ohio. One grad will be an officer in the Coast Guard and the other will be on the brand new American Duchess. A third, who could not attend, was valedictorian and DH had the privilege of presenting his appointment at his H.S. awards night 4 years ago. The Ohio members of the class of 2021 will do the academy proud too.

 

We tried to convince our DGSs to apply, but one chose Clemson & the other University of South Carolina.

 

Chengkp75 is a Cruise Critic member whose knowledge never ceases to amaze me even if I don't comprehend all the details of his posts.

 

Signed,

A Little Necker

And a merchant ship's Captain is either on the bridge or on call at all times as well. And, as noted, the merchant marine academy graduates can take their commission and follow virtually any training path available, as nybumpkin's son has become a SWO after graduation from Kings Point.

Thanks for the shout-out for DS!:o Son was interested in a Navy career when he was in high school and wanted to study engineering in college. He was interested in Annapolis when BIL (that Navy retiree) said to him, "I think you should look at Kings Point. Some of the best Navy officers I served with went there. They come out of college actually knowing how to 'drive the boat'"! Son visited Kings Point for an overnight and came home saying, "The food is awful, they work you hard, and I really liked it." (Nine years later, the food apparently has seen little improvement.:p) At the end of the day he never even completed the application for Annapolis and focused on Kings Point. The saying is that Kings Point is a lousy place to be at, but a great place to be from. As for career path - while son entered Kings Point with a Navy career in mind, he really liked his Sea Year service on a Military Sealift Command ship and two commercial ships. He was offered a position with MSC and a Navy commssion, and there was much hemming and hawing between the two. The Navy ultimately won. However, he is maintaining his USCG engineer's license. He worked hard to get that!

This happened about 2am...people must sleep. The CO is not going to stay on the bridge 24/7. That is why people are qualified to stand watch on the bridge. Plus the CO's cabin is usually a very short distance form the bridge.

 

It's my understanding that in difficult navigation conditions for cruise ships, if the Captain is not on the Bridge, the Staff Captain is. Is this the same requirement for the Second in Command in the USN?

It's my understanding that in difficult navigation conditions for cruise ships, if the Captain is not on the Bridge, the Staff Captain is. Is this the same requirement for the Second in Command in the USN?

 

That role is the Officer of the Deck [OOD] when underway, or the Command Duty Officer [CDO] when pier side.

 

On my last ship [decades ago] I was qualified for OOD only for 'independent steaming'. For that status, the OOD also is the conning officer [the person giving direct orders to the helmsman] so they have both 'the deck' and 'the conn'.

 

For 'sea and anchor' detail typically the XO served as OOD, and I was either the 'conning officer' or was down in Main Control depending of who needed to be trained in what.

It's my understanding that in difficult navigation conditions for cruise ships, if the Captain is not on the Bridge, the Staff Captain is. Is this the same requirement for the Second in Command in the USN?

 

"In difficult navigation conditions", the CO is going to be on the bridge - certainly during training exercises of likely limited duration.

 

What has not been disclosed is what the Fitzgerald was doing:

a) heading away from Yokosuka (likely on a reciprocal course to Crystal's)

b) heading in - then on a parallel course.

c) maneuvering as part of some exercise - which would indicate, particularly at that time of night, that the CO, or certainly the XO (second in command) would have been on the bridge.

Oil tanker collides with cargo ship in Dover Strait off UK

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/07/01/oil-tanker-and-large-cargo-ship-collide-in-english-channel.html

[url=http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/07/01/oil-tanker-and-large-cargo-ship-collide-in-english-channel.html][/url]

Not to confuse this thread with a different event, but it speaks to my underlying premise - When cruising I always believed that a collision with another large ship was virtually impossible. Instrumentation, along with seafaring protocols, were sufficiently advanced that it would take extreme negligence in order for such an event to occur, and modern crews were too professional for such dereliction. It seems I was wrong.

 

While the odds of such a collision are very very small, I'll sleep a bit less easy on future cruises - especially when we're navigating crowded shipping lanes.

 

A side note: It seems the vicinity of the captains quarters seems to attract collision damage.

 

A side note: It seems the vicinity of the captains quarters seems to attract collision damage.

 

I don't see mention that the Captain's quarters were damaged, but traditionally the Captain's quarters are on the Starboard side under the bridge deck, and the Chief Engineer's cabin is opposite on the Port side. So, I would say the Chief was probably rudely woken.

Not to confuse this thread with a different event, but it speaks to my underlying premise - When cruising I always believed that a collision with another large ship was virtually impossible.

 

Nothing is impossible. There's always the potential for human error......like the time a Carnival Captain decided to get underway from Cozumel while a storm squall was approaching. The result was getting blown into a Royal Caribbean ship.

 

All the instrumentation in the world, not to mention the physical sight of a storm approaching, couldn't stop that Captain from making a stupid decision.

I don't see mention that the Captain's quarters were damaged, but traditionally the Captain's quarters are on the Starboard side under the bridge deck, and the Chief Engineer's cabin is opposite on the Port side. So, I would say the Chief was probably rudely woken.

 

Yeah, I kinda wondered about that when I posted because the Fitz was hit on the starboard side. Thanks for clarifying.

Nothing is impossible. There's always the potential for human error......like the time a Carnival Captain decided to get underway from Cozumel while a storm squall was approaching. The result was getting blown into a Royal Caribbean ship.

 

All the instrumentation in the world, not to mention the physical sight of a storm approaching, couldn't stop that Captain from making a stupid decision.

 

Or the Carnival Pride t-boning the gangway and dock in Baltimore.

CNN Pentagon correspondent is reporting that initial findings of the Navy investigation indicate the Fitzgerald was at fault.

CNN Pentagon correspondent is reporting that initial findings of the Navy investigation indicate the Fitzgerald was at fault.

 

Even lacking specific fault, the less maneuverable vessel is presumed to have right of way, other things being equal.

 

Regardless, it is hard to see how the Fitzgerald, with underway watch: manned bridge, lookouts, radar tracking, etc. could not have avoided collision.

When things go the way they're supposed to, it's hard to see how it could happen.

 

When things go sour in the middle if the night - a lookout fails to notice the change in aspect of a ship, CIC is tracking too many targets to notice the change in course of a ship, and a junior OOD just out of quals fails to feel confident enough in his abilities to dare to wake the CO (all conjecture on my part, but I've spent a few late nights on a Navy bridge more or less as an observer) events that people can't imagine happening happen.

Reuters: "The crew of the USS Fitzgerald was likely at fault in the warship's collision with a Philippine cargo ship in June and had not been paying attention to their surroundings, according to initial findings in an investigation, a U.S. defense official told Reuters on Friday."

"There was not a lot that went right leading up to the crash. There were a string of errors, ... said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity."

"The official said that in addition to crew members not paying attention to their surroundings, they did not take action until it was too late."

I fault the Navy ship mostly. Inattentiveness, multiple mis-judgements and bad luck are the root causes of almost all peacetime collisions. At this stage there is no good reason not to expect something similar here, and the maxim that exceptional claims require exceptional evidence applies.

 

Until more information comes out, I cannot see how the Fitzgerald's bridge team can evade a large dose of responsibility; the question is how much mitigation can be found.

The Navy is releiving the CO, XO and Master CPO of command: http://gcaptain.com/uss-fitzgerald-officers-to-be-relieved-of-command/. In all, 12 sailors are expected to face administrative action (i.e, end of career). However, when you read the full report you can see where there are some sailors who probably should receive commendation for their work in keeping the ship afloat.

 

I also read that the Navy will be transporting Fitz stateside for repairs. They just can't do it in the Yokosuka drydocks, which they need for routine maintenance.

The Navy is releiving the CO, XO and Master CPO of command: http://gcaptain.com/uss-fitzgerald-officers-to-be-relieved-of-command/. In all, 12 sailors are expected to face administrative action (i.e, end of career). However, when you read the full report you can see where there are some sailors who probably should receive commendation for their work in keeping the ship afloat.

 

I also read that the Navy will be transporting Fitz stateside for repairs. They just can't do it in the Yokosuka drydocks, which they need for routine maintenance.

 

Given the way the Navy does their repairs, this would have tied up the Yokosuka drydock for many months or so, if the example of the Roberts from the Persian Gulf is any example. After striking a mine, she was carried by heavy lift ship to Portland, Maine, where she was drydocked for 6 months at a cost of $89 million (plus the $1.3 million for the heavy lift transport). A commercial repair would be to have the ship enter drydock for a short period to cut away the damaged section, then float out with the hole closed off above trapping an air pocket, build a new section of hull, lower it into the drydock, then flood the dock and bring the ship over it, and when pumping the dock out, lower the ship directly onto the new section, and weld it up. It has been done many times at many shipyards around the world.

...A commercial repair would be to have the ship enter drydock for a short period to cut away the damaged section, then float out with the hole closed off above trapping an air pocket, build a new section of hull, lower it into the drydock, then flood the dock and bring the ship over it, and when pumping the dock out, lower the ship directly onto the new section, and weld it up. It has been done many times at many shipyards around the world.

 

Would such a repair be suitable for a warship?

 

I've wondered if the collision may have affected structure well away from the area of impact.

Would such a repair be suitable for a warship?

 

I've wondered if the collision may have affected structure well away from the area of impact.

 

Good point - while major repairs to the hull of a cargo vessel are certainly complex, it is primarily a motorized floating box, where structural strength and watertight integrity are the issues.

 

A warship, particularly a thin-skinned one like a destroyer, is the same, but more fragile, floating box - but with substantially more complex problems: asw gear, weapons and communications systems largely integrated within that box.

The Navy is releiving the CO, XO and Master CPO of command: http://gcaptain.com/uss-fitzgerald-officers-to-be-relieved-of-command/. In all, 12 sailors are expected to face administrative action (i.e, end of career). However, when you read the full report you can see where there are some sailors who probably should receive commendation for their work in keeping the ship afloat.

 

I also read that the Navy will be transporting Fitz stateside for repairs. They just can't do it in the Yokosuka drydocks, which they need for routine maintenance.

 

 

Yoko does NOT have the necessary infrastructure equipment and personnel to fix the Fitz. she barely can handle the Oilers and MCMs that pull in occasionally for routine maintenance.

 

It's always the CO's fault. even when it isn't the CO's fault. I hate to say it, but the command culture in Yoko has always been.. shall we say.. complacent and lax. a lot of small details that are boring and lame and a PITA get..less consideration than they should. we won't go into the debacle that was the Kitty Hawk's complete and utter failure 10 minutes in to an Inspection 15 years ago, but my guess is, things have not changed that much. when stepson was on MUSTIN 5 years ago, the same stories were still happening.

Would such a repair be suitable for a warship?

 

I've wondered if the collision may have affected structure well away from the area of impact.

 

jury is still out, but none of the old SWOs we know would be surprised if at the end of the day, she has to be scrapped. thats another reason for having it done in a major Drydock facility.

Would such a repair be suitable for a warship?

 

I've wondered if the collision may have affected structure well away from the area of impact.

 

Good point - while major repairs to the hull of a cargo vessel are certainly complex, it is primarily a motorized floating box, where structural strength and watertight integrity are the issues.

 

A warship, particularly a thin-skinned one like a destroyer, is the same, but more fragile, floating box - but with substantially more complex problems: asw gear, weapons and communications systems largely integrated within that box.

 

That's just the point. All that is needed in a drydock is to repair the hull structure and make it watertight. All else can be completed alongside a wet berth, saving money, but the "Gray Funnel Line" does not have to make a profit, so who cares how long the ship sits on the blocks.

 

Also, all of the complex military equipment that is included in the damaged section can be pre-fabricated into the new section, just like shipbuilding blocks are done for other ships, and then connected into the systems around them and wired in. Yes, a warship would require more "site work" than a cargo or a cruise ship, but quite a lot of the work could be done ahead of time.

 

Unfortunately, our shipyards in the US are not really accustomed to thinking in terms of ship repairs to ships that need to make a profit, so they don't think outside the box, and don't have experience with making decisions "on the fly" and producing quotes within minutes or hours instead of weeks. By relying almost exclusively on Navy shipbuilding and repair work, we have lost the experience necessary to make cost effective commercial ship repair or newbuilding.

jury is still out, but none of the old SWOs we know would be surprised if at the end of the day, she has to be scrapped. thats another reason for having it done in a major Drydock facility.

 

If they didn't scrap the Roberts, which was essentially broken in two, and had to be strapped together in a Bahrainian shipyard in order to even be lifted on a heavy lift ship for a "dry tow" back the US, then I doubt they'll scrap this one.

I heard on the news this morning, that several offricers were asleep at the time of the incident. Another who was supposed to be on t he bridge, was not and they have been removed from their duties. Not really good for their c arreers, I would guess. ::eek

If they didn't scrap the Roberts, which was essentially broken in two, and had to be strapped together in a Bahrainian shipyard in order to even be lifted on a heavy lift ship for a "dry tow" back the US, then I doubt they'll scrap this one.

 

If memory serves me correctly (which it doesn't always) they eventually put the Belknap back into service after her run in with the John F Can-opener (aka Kennedy).