Disability ship upgrades

Looks like Carnival will be upgrading the fleet.

http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2015/07/23/carnival-settles-us-claims-of-disability-discrimination

As I posted over on the HAL forum:

While I am in complete agreement with the necessity of tightening the rules for booking accessible cabins, and making some reasonable changes to improve accessibility, I am really surprised that this settlement was reached, or that the investigation actually looked into many of the areas that it did. I'm also a bit surprised that Carnival agreed to all of this. Before anyone flames me, I am basing this on the Specter v. NCL Supreme Court decision on the ADA, where the Court ruled that the ADA did not apply to "foreign ships' internal business or operations" without a clear mandate from Congress. Since Congress has not passed a bill revising the ADA to specifically include foreign ships, the Court says that only certain aspects of the ADA apply. This settlement makes it sound as if Justice has decided that all aspects will apply.

Without getting too far into the politics of it, the Court rightly ruled that a US law does not have jurisdiction over a foreign ship's operation, but now the Executive branch has decided to apparently overrule the Judicial. I know Carnival Corp is the 800 lb. gorilla in the industry, and should have the highest cost to meet this settlement of all the lines, but I wonder when complaints are brought against other lines based on this settlement, whether any will appeal to the Court. The application of the ADA is a gray area, since the US can regulate the ships when in US waters, but not outside, so technically a ship could provide ADA accessibility right up until the ship leaves US waters and then stop. This is not economical, but that is what the Court has said; unless Congress makes a clear statement that Congress wants all aspects of the ADA to apply, the Court feels this is too gray an area based on the current law.

While I agree that accessibility issues need addressing, this is another area where Americans assume their laws and protections apply everywhere in the world, just like the similar safety and law enforcement issues between US law and foreign flag ships.

Good post, as always thanks for adding insight.

For me, I find the cabins on many Carnival ships to be the main accessible issue. There are often poles in the middle of the room, or because they use the odd shaped rooms, beds are placed on an angle with not enough clearance between the wall and the bottom corner of the bed to clear a wheelchair. Toilets are placed in a corner, or on an angle with limited grab bars (mostly because there isn't a place to put one with how they've placed the toilet).

Many of the older ships have far more "modified accessible" than accessible cabins which don't have enough clearance for a wheelchair, scooter or walker.

And I personally dislike that they place the majority of their accessible cabins at the very front of the ship in the 4J category and use the odd shaped cabins - sometimes this works (like the Dream class oceanview spa cabins) but sometimes it's horrible (like 6206 or 7206 on the Conquest class ships).

I was so happy to find the 4Ks on the Spirit class and extremely happy that the Pride returned to Baltimore.

On many other cruise lines, I'm not as concerned about the cabins because they are all fully accessible (like Celebrity, Royal, and Disney). It's also easy to go onto their website and pull up a list of accessible cabins by checking a box saying, "I need an accessible cabin".

It's bothered me that Carnival didn't separate theirs out; it bothers me even more that often when you're looking for a cabin on a cruise that's far out time wise, that the first cabins that are offered are accessible ones (was looking at October 2016 or November 2016 on the Pride for 2 cabins - the two that were offered were 4202 and 4205, both accessible so it almost seems to encourage those who don't need an accessible cabin to book them because that's what Carnival puts out as their offer).

As well, there was one time I called Carnival after receiving a casino offer and asked about an accessible cabin for my mom. The person just replied, "There are none available." and didn't look to see if there was anyone booked who didn't need it (which based on how they offer their cabins, is a strong possibility).

Anyways, all of this to say - I'm very happy that Carnival is going to be making some changes in this area. I can actually have my PVP remove the note from my file that says not to call me due to Carnival's accessible cabin policy.

I suppose there will have to be some kind of crane system to get scooters onto tenders. I almost hate to say this, but I will: I've seen some passengers in scooters who top 400 pounds. They'll have to be helped onto tenders as well. It's going to be very interesting seeing how this is handled.

 

I'm editing this to ask how proof is shown that one is truly in need of an accessible cabin. For those who are disabled, do you have to show proof of your disability? We all know how people are. I can see some schmuck claiming a disability, snagging an ADA cabin, and using a cane to get on the ship. Then s/he will ditch the cane during the cruise.

This is one of the areas that I would like to see tightened up, but unfortunately, this is something that the law regulates, not the cruise line, and they really cannot ask what the nature of the disability is, per the ADA.

Designated tenders should be scheduled for transferring disabled passengers to ensure the safe transfer of disabled passengers and to avoid excessive wait times going ashore by all.

I suppose there will have to be some kind of crane system to get scooters onto tenders. I almost hate to say this, but I will: I've seen some passengers in scooters who top 400 pounds. They'll have to be helped onto tenders as well. It's going to be very interesting seeing how this is handled.

 

I'm editing this to ask how proof is shown that one is truly in need of an accessible cabin. For those who are disabled, do you have to show proof of your disability? We all know how people are. I can see some schmuck claiming a disability, snagging an ADA cabin, and using a cane to get on the ship. Then s/he will ditch the cane during the cruise.

You do not need to show "proof" of a disability. A cruiseline can request a personal affidavit to attest to the fact you are booking an accessible cabin for "need" but they cannot ask you what the "need" is. The bottom line is that anyone can book an accessible cabin if they really want to and no one can stop it from happening. It becomes a matter of integrity on the part of the passenger. Many accessible cabins are booked by people who "choose" to use a scooter and or wheelchair to assist them in their mobility issues but are not "confined" to them (and I'm not saying this is wrong by any means) and this is why some accessible cabins are deemed modified since the need is for more room.

Modified cabins do not require roll in showers, wheel chair space at the sides of toilets, modified closets where rods are accessible by someone confined to a wheel chair, roll up space at a wash basin, room at the side of a bed for transfer space. They are usually equipped with grab bars in the shower and at the toilet, a wider entry door, and a "parking" area for the scooter or wheelchair.

This decision to require ADA regulations outside of staterooms just boggles my mind. The ADA design standards book is over 250 pages.

Designated tenders should be scheduled for transferring disabled passengers to ensure the safe transfer of disabled passengers and to avoid excessive wait times going ashore by all.

It doesn't work that way...you cannot discriminate by providing separate but equal.

maybe the cruise line should offer some kind of training to fellow passengers. On one of my cruises a few years ago, i seen a few rude people that ignore people with disability or people who walk slow. Theirs no need to be pushing/shoving your way in an elevator, or trying to walk around/cut front of people in the buffet/tender line

You must provide a doctor's certification as to your disability. I for one am glad to see these changes. My brother is in a chair with limited mobility and they have to provide proof each time they book. We booked the Bermuda cruise out of Port Canaveral in May 2016 and invited them to go with us, but they said they are done with Carnival because of the limited amount of rooms and always having to be in the very front of the ship so were going to try other lines until Carnival did something about it. Maybe this will help us be able to "family cruise" again.

I just hate the assumption that people who don't appear to be handicapped aren't. I have a 34 year old friend who is slim and gorgeous and she gets grief all the time when she uses the handicap spot with her HC plates.

I am going to rock the boat, well ship in this case. I have gone through back surgeries and have lots of nerve damage that causes me to have a lot of trouble with my legs. On a 5 day cruise I can't walk very well on about the 3rd or 4th day. I stay in pain but try not to spoil it for my wife and whoever else goes with us. I keep in mind to schedule things around my disability. It's not CCL fault I'm disabled and I don't expect them to cater to me. If there is something I would love to do but know I can't do, oh' well I'll get over it. I'm not going to sue CCL because of it and don't think anyone else should either. I know I am disabled and have walking issues so I'm certainly not going to book something I know I can't do.

As I posted over on the HAL forum:

 

While I am in complete agreement with the necessity of tightening the rules for booking accessible cabins, and making some reasonable changes to improve accessibility, I am really surprised that this settlement was reached, or that the investigation actually looked into many of the areas that it did. I'm also a bit surprised that Carnival agreed to all of this. Before anyone flames me, I am basing this on the Specter v. NCL Supreme Court decision on the ADA, where the Court ruled that the ADA did not apply to "foreign ships' internal business or operations" without a clear mandate from Congress. Since Congress has not passed a bill revising the ADA to specifically include foreign ships, the Court says that only certain aspects of the ADA apply. This settlement makes it sound as if Justice has decided that all aspects will apply.

 

Without getting too far into the politics of it, the Court rightly ruled that a US law does not have jurisdiction over a foreign ship's operation, but now the Executive branch has decided to apparently overrule the Judicial. I know Carnival Corp is the 800 lb. gorilla in the industry, and should have the highest cost to meet this settlement of all the lines, but I wonder when complaints are brought against other lines based on this settlement, whether any will appeal to the Court. The application of the ADA is a gray area, since the US can regulate the ships when in US waters, but not outside, so technically a ship could provide ADA accessibility right up until the ship leaves US waters and then stop. This is not economical, but that is what the Court has said; unless Congress makes a clear statement that Congress wants all aspects of the ADA to apply, the Court feels this is too gray an area based on the current law.

 

While I agree that accessibility issues need addressing, this is another area where Americans assume their laws and protections apply everywhere in the world, just like the similar safety and law enforcement issues between US law and foreign flag ships.

Very interesting post.

First, Carnival might have agreed to settle simply to avoid protracted litigation. They may have determined it was cheaper to settle and do more, than to litigate and do less, and they'd rather use the money making improvements to the ships they can market to those who have mobility issues, than to pay lawyers.

Also, this is just from memory, and not a recent reading of the case, but I think the cruise lines are required by the ADA to provide a certain amount of accessible cabins for people to book with ease (or, at least with no more difficulty than the rest of us face) when they actively market in the US. However, once out to sea, as you mention, US law can not require them to make activities, or tender transfers, ADA compliant.

Either way, this agreement will have no binding effect on other cruise lines. If the DOJ does go after other lines, the other lines may look at this agreement as an example of what the DOJ would accept. And, the DOJ could say, "See, this is what Carnival did, so it's reasonable." But, if anything does go to court, the Court would look to the Supreme Court case you cited, but completely ignore this agreement as if it did not even exist.

What could happen, though, is that individuals may see this settlement, and that might provide motivation to file an ADA complaint.

You must provide a doctor's certification as to your disability. I for one am glad to see these changes. My brother is in a chair with limited mobility and they have to provide proof each time they book. We booked the Bermuda cruise out of Port Canaveral in May 2016 and invited them to go with us, but they said they are done with Carnival because of the limited amount of rooms and always having to be in the very front of the ship so were going to try other lines until Carnival did something about it. Maybe this will help us be able to "family cruise" again.

http://www.carnival.com/about-carnival/special-needs/wheelchair-users.aspx

You need to fill out a form saying you need an accessible cabin but you do not need a Drs. certificate...or I can't find any such requirement. Now if you brother has issues other than mobility Carnival may be requiring a Drs release to insure that the cruise line will not be held responsible for any medical emergency associated with your Brother's care.

I am very excited about the upcoming changes! I am deaf with cochlear implants. On my Hawaii cruise last December there was bad weather and the day we were supposed to be in Maui they made lots of announcements over the PA system that I was not able to understand. I had to keep asking people around me, "What are they saying?". As it turned out, we would be in Hilo that day instead of Maui and of course there were lots of announcements regarding the length of stay, shore excursions, going to Maui another day, etc. This may not seem like a lot to some, but to not understand what is happening is frustrating. We ended up with several itinerary changes during this cruise and so there were several days like this.

In the end, I wrote to Carnival suggesting that the announcements be broadcast on TV monitors around the ship to help the hearing impaired. What if there was a real emergency with panicky passengers? What would happen to the hearing impaired?

Anyhow - I will look forward to improvements for the hearing impaired and others with disabilities.

Very interesting post.

 

First' date=' Carnival might have agreed to settle simply to avoid protracted litigation. They may have determined it was cheaper to settle and do more, than to litigate and do less, and they'd rather use the money making improvements to the ships they can market to those who have mobility issues, than to pay lawyers.

 

Also, this is just from memory, and not a recent reading of the case, but I think the cruise lines are required by the ADA to provide a certain amount of accessible cabins for people to book with ease (or, at least with no more difficulty than the rest of us face) when they actively market in the US. However, once out to sea, as you mention, US law can not require them to make activities, or tender transfers, ADA compliant.

 

Either way, this agreement will have no binding effect on other cruise lines. If the DOJ does go after other lines, the other lines may look at this agreement as an example of what the DOJ would accept. And, the DOJ could say, "See, this is what Carnival did, so it's reasonable." But, if anything does go to court, the Court would look to the Supreme Court case you cited, but completely ignore this agreement as if it did not even exist.

 

What could happen, though, is that individuals may see this settlement, and that might provide motivation to file an ADA complaint.[/quote']

 

Carnival is the largest cruise company. It would be foolish for the other cruise companies not to follow the guidelines in this settlement. Why challenge it?

 

As part of the issue involving hearing loss disability, cruise line videos (information, sales, safety, etc) on the cabin TV that do not have closed captions now are a problem. In this techie world, it is reasonable and easy to add the captions so the deaf or the hard of hearing would be able to understand.

 

I can't hear so I have to board with those needing assistance. However, I would not have to board with that designated group if the cruise lines had digital signs in the waiting area. So those with hearing loss could read for example, "Now Boarding Groups 5 to 9" and any other updated information that hearing people get over the PA system.

One improvement has already been made on the West Coast. In Catalina, Carnival is now using the old, larger (270 pax and 400 pax) Catalina Ferries as tenders. These accommodate scooters and power chairs. It can take over an hour if you're first on, last off. Luckily these boats have bathrooms.

maybe the cruise line should offer some kind of training to fellow passengers. On one of my cruises a few years ago, i seen a few rude people that ignore people with disability or people who walk slow. Theirs no need to be pushing/shoving your way in an elevator, or trying to walk around/cut front of people in the buffet/tender line

I would agree with the no pushing/shoving part but we have to appreciate the fact that in a ship with thousands of passengers, many narrow hallways and relies on smooth flow of passenger traffic to function properly, it doesn't take much to clog up the whole system and cause all kind of lineups and delays in those public places. That said, it always irks me to see able body passengers fighting their ways into a crowded elevator to go up or down one or two floors when they can easily just walk.

I've been curious about how accessible cabins are assigned since my last cruise. My perfectly healthy friend & I had an accessible cabin. It was assigned to us from the guarantee pool, & we had no idea there was anything special about it until we walked in.

The thing is, during the cruise we noticed rooms with scooters & wheelchairs outside that were certainly not accessible rooms. I wondered if those folks had not asked for an accessible cabin or if they had been turned down while all the while there was one in the guarantee pool :confused:

My mother, should she ever cruise, is in a wheelchair & would absolutely need to have a completely accessible room like i had on the Valor or she couldn't go. So it's nice that these rooms will hopefully be available more easily to those who need them.

I've been curious about how accessible cabins are assigned since my last cruise. My perfectly healthy friend & I had an accessible cabin. It was assigned to us from the guarantee pool, & we had no idea there was anything special about it until we walked in.

 

 

 

The thing is, during the cruise we noticed rooms with scooters & wheelchairs outside that were certainly not accessible rooms. I wondered if those folks had not asked for an accessible cabin or if they had been turned down while all the while there was one in the guarantee pool :confused:

 

 

 

My mother, should she ever cruise, is in a wheelchair & would absolutely need to have a completely accessible room like i had on the Valor or she couldn't go. So it's nice that these rooms will hopefully be available more easily to those who need them.

They can displace people,from handicapped rooms (either ones that were picked or as you had) at their discretion.

That said, it always irks me to see able body passengers fighting their ways into a crowded elevator to go up or down one or two floors when they can easily just walk.

As someone pointed out earlier - you can't always tell that a person has disabilities in a glance. On a recent cruise a woman on the elevator made a whispered, snide remark about my DH screwing up the elevator for others by only riding up one floor when he looked perfectly healthy and could surely walk up the one flight of stairs.

He kept his cool and silently pulled up his pant-leg to reveal the horrible scar he has from knee to ankle from massive heart related surgery. As a result of the surgery he has never recovered his endurance - thus the elevator. He can't do the stairs.

And no, we/he would never fight our way onto a crowded elevator.

As someone pointed out earlier - you can't always tell that a person has disabilities in a glance. On a recent cruise a woman on the elevator made a whispered, snide remark about my DH screwing up the elevator for others by only riding up one floor when he looked perfectly healthy and could surely walk up the one flight of stairs.

 

He kept his cool and silently pulled up his pant-leg to reveal the horrible scar he has from knee to ankle from massive heart related surgery. As a result of the surgery he has never recovered his endurance - thus the elevator. He can't do the stairs.

 

And no, we/he would never fight our way onto a crowded elevator.

Similar story with my friend. She has a horribly bad heart at 34. Looks fine and can do short walks but anything else requires a wheelchair or scooter. You should see the looks and she gets when she stands to get out of the car and then grabs her chair from the back. People can be horrible.

I would agree with the no pushing/shoving part but we have to appreciate the fact that in a ship with thousands of passengers, many narrow hallways and relies on smooth flow of passenger traffic to function properly, it doesn't take much to clog up the whole system and cause all kind of lineups and delays in those public places. That said, it always irks me to see able body passengers fighting their ways into a crowded elevator to go up or down one or two floors when they can easily just walk.

As most of you know Larry & I both have scooters now for cruising. We can relate to the elevator story's There we sit waiting for a near empty ele. It will stop & before it can empty people are pushing to get on. After the show & also after Mustard. :D are the worst

We have said often oh my remember when we would take the steps because they were so much quicker Of course we were going to smoke & couldn't wait. We are now paying for this by sitting in a scooter because we can't breath & have no circulation in our legs. OH TO BE ABLE TO RUN UP A COUPLE OF

DECKS & still breath. :eek:

Char

They should also require scooters must be stored IN the cabin, not the hallway outside the cabin.

They should also require scooters must be stored IN the cabin, not the hallway outside the cabin.

Actually, those are the rules on Carnival. But sadly, like most every other rule, Carnival fails to enforce it.