Crisis in Barcelona

Apart from stating the obvious, I have been commenting on the incorrect and exaggerated misconceptions originally posted.

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What I will say is that the left think the BBC has a right wing bias whilst the right think it has a left wing bias so I rather suspect that, on balance, they have probably got it about right.

 

One thing you can be certain about is that the BBC do check their facts very carefully and so whilst we may get opinion, we tend not to get a distorted view of the facts, which means that when I am in France, I usually visit the BBC for my definitive take on the news.

Thanks Corfe...appreciate your insights & with BBC being perceived as biased by left & right that's an indication to me that they're attempting to provide objective information.

I regularly read BBC online & feel they're a credible source for information.

Thanks Corfe...appreciate your insights & with BBC being perceived as biased by left & right that's an indication to me that they're attempting to provide objective information.

 

I regularly read BBC online & feel they're a credible source for information.

I prefer ITV news but the BBC news is very good.

My only complaint with BBC was they were biased towards the remainers in Brexit and their TV debates had a much larger proportion of remainers in the audience and on the panel.

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Thanks Corfe...appreciate your insights & with BBC being perceived as biased by left & right that's an indication to me that they're attempting to provide objective information.

 

 

 

I regularly read BBC online & feel they're a credible source for information.

One point. When outside the UK, I always start at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news and use the World tab to get to the local overseas news.

Seems to give me more articles than if I go in via http://www.bbc.com

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This is an article which appeared in Monday's Wall Street Journal:

By Jeannette Neumann

Sept. 23, 2017 7:00 a.m. ET81 COMMENTS





MADRID—Spanish authorities’ efforts to stop Catalonia’s independence referendum byarresting separatist leaders and confiscating ballots appear to have diminished the prospect that millions of Catalans will formally vote on Oct. 1, but that doesn’t mean a crisis has been averted.

Leaders on both sides of the bitter divide expect hundreds of thousands of separatists to protest if they aren’t able to cast their vote. Pro-independence leaders might declare Catalonia an independent republic regardless of how any vote unfolds, they say, presenting Spain with its worst political impasse in decades and leaving the country even more torn about the future of the rebellious region.

Since Catalonia’s leaders announced the independence referendum earlier this month, the central government in Madrid has staged an all-out effort to stop the vote.



Catalonia officials standing in front of the Barcelona courthouse on Friday after some of their colleagues were released. PHOTO: MANU FERNANDEZ/ASSOCIATED PRESS

 



It successfully petitioned a Spanish court tosuspend the balloting while it weighs its legality, and seized control of most of Catalonia’s finances to prevent the spending of public funds on the referendum.

Earlier this week, Spanish police arrested 14 people allegedly involved in planning the referendum on charges of disobedience, malfeasance and misappropriation of public funds.

After those arrests brought nearly 40,000 people to the streets of central Barcelona, prosecutors asked a top court to investigate the demonstrators for alleged sedition.

“A contingency plan—that’s what’s left of the referendum,” Spain’s Deputy Prime Minister Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría told journalists on Friday.

Even if a large-scale, organized vote doesn’t take place, leaders on both sides say pro-independence forces could still cobble together a makeshift ballot. They also expect separatists to take to the streets in mass protests against the outlawing of the referendum.

A protracted period of mobilization against the government of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy could embolden secessionist leaders to declare Catalonia an independent republic, even if the vote itself is largely squelched.



Students gathered at the University of Barcelona on Friday for a pro-referendum demonstration. PHOTO: LLUIS GENE/AFP/GETTY IMAGES

 



In anticipation of such protests, the central government announced plans Friday to send extra police to Catalonia “to maintain order,” it said. A police union spokesman said 4,000 additional officers would be dispatched to Catalonia. If Catalan leaders do declare independence, Madrid could move to replace regional government officials, although that is viewed as a last resort.

Catalonia’s President Carles Puigdemont, a leader of the pro-independence movement, has likened the government and police actions to those of an authoritarian state. He pledges to hold the vote despite pressure from Madrid.

The deepening bitterness over the issue is reflected in the split among the region’s mayors, who sit on the front lines of the battle.

Mayors from around four-fifths of Catalonia’s nearly 950 municipalities have said they support the referendum and are willing to allow Catalan authorities to use municipal facilities as polling stations. In response, prosecutors launched an investigation against the mayors and began to call them in earlier this week to testify about their plans.



A police officer holds back an anti-separatist supporter arguing with pro-Independence supporters during a demonstration in Barcelona on Friday. PHOTO: DAVID RAMOS/GETTY IMAGES

 



Many, such as Marc Solsona, mayor of the small town of Mollerussa, remain defiant. “If I have any say in it, in Mollerussa, they will vote,” Mr. Solsona said. “In a modern democracy, can more than 700 mayors be barred from office for the sole reason of allowing people to vote?”

By contrast, Àngel Ros, the mayor of the city of Lleida, opposes the referendum. He has faced three large protests outside his town hall, with some protesters jeering “traitor.”

“Catalan society is divided in two and Lleida is as well,” Mr. Ros said. “Is it worth creating a state if it divides a country?”

RELATED

 

• Spanish Police Detain Catalan Officials Ahead of Vote (Sept. 20)
  
• Madrid Escalates Battle With Catalonia Over Secession Bid (Sept. 15)
  
• Catalans Rally for Secession as Polls Show Fervor Ebbs (Sept. 11)
  

The government’s aggressive response to the referendum could fan the flames of pro-independence sentiment in Catalonia. About 35% of Catalans supported independence in June, the most recent figures available from the autonomous region’s research agency. However, around half of Catalans at that time supported holding a referendum on secession, even if Madrid opposed it.

Nationally, one in 10 Spaniards support granting Catalonia and other regions the possibility of becoming independent, according to a July survey by the Center for Sociological Research, a Spanish government institute.

Hardening attitudes against Catalan independence among other Spaniards could complicate Mr. Rajoy’s task of finding a long-term solution to the fissure.

“The conflict is going to continue,” said José Antonio Troguet, mayor of the 2,500-inhabitant Catalan town of Pont de Suert. Government leaders in Madrid and Barcelona, he added, “should provide a solution to this grievance. If not, this conflict will never be resolved.”

Write to Jeannette Neumann at jeannette.neumann@wsj.com

Can I respectfully suggest that, instead of relying solely on US media sources as being definitive, you try accessing a few European sources.

In particular I would refer you to the English language version of El Pais, Spain's leading newspaper.

https://elpais.com/elpais/inenglish.html

Look at todays main article.

The title of the article might surprise you 'How Russian news networks are using Catalonia issue to destabilize Europe'.

Note in particular that it uses the word 'issue' where you and the wsj (once) would use the word 'crisis'.

Read also the second article entitled 'Spanish prosecutors formally accuse Barcelona protesters of sedition' Note in particular the Spanish legal definition of sedition (prevent the application of the laws, either by force or outside the legal channels.) which very nicely allows people to be charged for non-violent protest.

The only violence in the report related to the vandalising of Civil Guard police cars. If you read further, you will discover that this was limited to the protesters puncturing the tyres of the police cars, smashing a windscreen and covering the car in leaflets, which I hope you would agree is a lot less violent than most anti-police protests.

This is an article which appeared in Monday's Wall Street Journal:

 

 

By Jeannette Neumann

Sept. 23, 2017 7:00 a.m. ET81 COMMENTS



 

MADRID—Spanish authorities’ efforts to stop Catalonia’s independence referendum byarresting separatist leaders and confiscating ballots appear to have diminished the prospect that millions of Catalans will formally vote on Oct. 1, but that doesn’t mean a crisis has been averted.

Leaders on both sides of the bitter divide expect hundreds of thousands of separatists to protest if they aren’t able to cast their vote. Pro-independence leaders might declare Catalonia an independent republic regardless of how any vote unfolds, they say, presenting Spain with its worst political impasse in decades and leaving the country even more torn about the future of the rebellious region.

Since Catalonia’s leaders announced the independence referendum earlier this month, the central government in Madrid has staged an all-out effort to stop the vote.



Catalonia officials standing in front of the Barcelona courthouse on Friday after some of their colleagues were released. PHOTO: MANU FERNANDEZ/ASSOCIATED PRESS

 



It successfully petitioned a Spanish court tosuspend the balloting while it weighs its legality, and seized control of most of Catalonia’s finances to prevent the spending of public funds on the referendum.

Earlier this week, Spanish police arrested 14 people allegedly involved in planning the referendum on charges of disobedience, malfeasance and misappropriation of public funds.

After those arrests brought nearly 40,000 people to the streets of central Barcelona, prosecutors asked a top court to investigate the demonstrators for alleged sedition.

“A contingency plan—that’s what’s left of the referendum,” Spain’s Deputy Prime Minister Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría told journalists on Friday.

Even if a large-scale, organized vote doesn’t take place, leaders on both sides say pro-independence forces could still cobble together a makeshift ballot. They also expect separatists to take to the streets in mass protests against the outlawing of the referendum.

A protracted period of mobilization against the government of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy could embolden secessionist leaders to declare Catalonia an independent republic, even if the vote itself is largely squelched.



Students gathered at the University of Barcelona on Friday for a pro-referendum demonstration. PHOTO: LLUIS GENE/AFP/GETTY IMAGES

 



In anticipation of such protests, the central government announced plans Friday to send extra police to Catalonia “to maintain order,” it said. A police union spokesman said 4,000 additional officers would be dispatched to Catalonia. If Catalan leaders do declare independence, Madrid could move to replace regional government officials, although that is viewed as a last resort.

Catalonia’s President Carles Puigdemont, a leader of the pro-independence movement, has likened the government and police actions to those of an authoritarian state. He pledges to hold the vote despite pressure from Madrid.

The deepening bitterness over the issue is reflected in the split among the region’s mayors, who sit on the front lines of the battle.

Mayors from around four-fifths of Catalonia’s nearly 950 municipalities have said they support the referendum and are willing to allow Catalan authorities to use municipal facilities as polling stations. In response, prosecutors launched an investigation against the mayors and began to call them in earlier this week to testify about their plans.



A police officer holds back an anti-separatist supporter arguing with pro-Independence supporters during a demonstration in Barcelona on Friday. PHOTO: DAVID RAMOS/GETTY IMAGES

 



Many, such as Marc Solsona, mayor of the small town of Mollerussa, remain defiant. “If I have any say in it, in Mollerussa, they will vote,” Mr. Solsona said. “In a modern democracy, can more than 700 mayors be barred from office for the sole reason of allowing people to vote?”

By contrast, Àngel Ros, the mayor of the city of Lleida, opposes the referendum. He has faced three large protests outside his town hall, with some protesters jeering “traitor.”

“Catalan society is divided in two and Lleida is as well,” Mr. Ros said. “Is it worth creating a state if it divides a country?”

RELATED

 

 

• Spanish Police Detain Catalan Officials Ahead of Vote (Sept. 20)
  
• Madrid Escalates Battle With Catalonia Over Secession Bid (Sept. 15)
  
• Catalans Rally for Secession as Polls Show Fervor Ebbs (Sept. 11)
  

The government’s aggressive response to the referendum could fan the flames of pro-independence sentiment in Catalonia. About 35% of Catalans supported independence in June, the most recent figures available from the autonomous region’s research agency. However, around half of Catalans at that time supported holding a referendum on secession, even if Madrid opposed it.

Nationally, one in 10 Spaniards support granting Catalonia and other regions the possibility of becoming independent, according to a July survey by the Center for Sociological Research, a Spanish government institute.

Hardening attitudes against Catalan independence among other Spaniards could complicate Mr. Rajoy’s task of finding a long-term solution to the fissure.

“The conflict is going to continue,” said José Antonio Troguet, mayor of the 2,500-inhabitant Catalan town of Pont de Suert. Government leaders in Madrid and Barcelona, he added, “should provide a solution to this grievance. If not, this conflict will never be resolved.”

Write to Jeannette Neumann at jeannette.neumann@wsj.com

Can I respectfully suggest that, instead of relying solely on US media sources as being definitive, you try accessing a few European sources.

 

In particular I would refer you to the English language version of El Pais, Spain's leading newspaper.

https://elpais.com/elpais/inenglish.html

 

Look at todays main article.

The title of the article might surprise you 'How Russian news networks are using Catalonia issue to destabilize Europe'.

Note in particular that it uses the word 'issue' where you and the wsj (once) would use the word 'crisis'.

 

Read also the second article entitled 'Spanish prosecutors formally accuse Barcelona protesters of sedition' Note in particular the Spanish legal definition of sedition (prevent the application of the laws, either by force or outside the legal channels.) which very nicely allows people to be charged for non-violent protest.

 

The only violence in the report related to the vandalising of Civil Guard police cars. If you read further, you will discover that this was limited to the protesters puncturing the tyres of the police cars, smashing a windscreen and covering the car in leaflets, which I hope you would agree is a lot less violent than most anti-police protests.

That is why individuals should be well informed, look at a variety of news sources, and have some knowledge of Spanish history. Next several weeks will be "interesting" for the people of this region.

That is why individuals should be well informed, look at a variety of news sources, and have some knowledge of Spanish history. Next several weeks will be "interesting" for the people of this region.

So, as long as they are not in the protest areas tourists should be safe.

But, if the protesters become violent, is there any chance the Guarda will return fire with guns/rifles?

Enjoy your cruise.

So, as long as they are not in the protest areas tourists should be safe.

 

But, if the protesters become violent, is there any chance the Guarda will return fire with guns/rifles?

 

Enjoy your cruise.

Whilst I can, obviously, not guarantee it, Western Europe countries tend to not fire live ammo at civilians. It doesn't go down well with the general populous.

Whilst I can, obviously, not guarantee it, Western Europe countries tend to not fire live ammo at civilians. It doesn't go down well with the general populous.

Maybe just tear gas or use batons?

Anyway, I guess there is nothing really to worry about then. Barcelona is a very lovely city. :)

Tear gas is often the weapon of choice in dispersing crowds.

Many European countries use water cannon too (Not the UK), I'm not sure whether Spain is one of them though.

I prefer ITV news but the BBC news is very good.

My only complaint with BBC was they were biased towards the remainers in Brexit and their TV debates had a much larger proportion of remainers in the audience and on the panel.

 

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One point. When outside the UK, I always start at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news and use the World tab to get to the local overseas news.

Seems to give me more articles than if I go in via http://www.bbc.com

 

 

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Thanks...I use the BBC app to view the World tab or in this situation the Europe tab.

I have not watched TV in two year. The world keeps on turning whether I know about in glorious, breathless detail or not. NYTimes and The Economist keep me current.

If In ever would go back toBarcelona (which I NEVER will,I’d be more concerned about pick pockets than anything else.

Tear gas is often the weapon of choice in dispersing crowds.

 

Many European countries use water cannon too (Not the UK), I'm not sure whether Spain is one of them though.

Spain use water cannon and there were reports that the police they were drafting in from outside the area were being water cannon with them.

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Spain use water cannon and there were reports that the police they were drafting in from outside the area were being water cannon with them.

 

 

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Thanks for the clarification Corfe.

Presumably your name is derived from the area you live? If so, that's a lovely part of the world.

I will let you know how it looks from behind my Paella and glass of Ribera del Duero region wine on La Rambla Saturday. :cool:

 

Presumably your name is derived from the area you live? If so, that's a lovely part of the world.

Absolutely correct. [emoji106]

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I will let you know how it looks from behind my Paella and glass of Ribera del Duero region wine on La Rambla Saturday. :cool:

Have a good journey Keith & maybe you'll have some time to provide us with a cruise preview before we return to the Royal Princess in Barcelona after you. :)

I'm sailing on NCL Epic out of Barcelona on Sunday October 1. You can be sure I'm keeping up to date on the news regarding the vote and recent actions by the Spanish government. Not because I enjoy scare-mongering myself, but because I like to be informed and prepared. I have an early morning arrival and will take taxi straight to port and cross fingers that public transportation that early will be ok. I've registered my travel with the State Department, I have info bookmarked on mobile devices, and I plan on being a savvy traveler. That said, anything can happen anywhere...

I visited Barcelona last year for 12 days and fell in love with the city. I'll be staying a few days after the cruise ends as well.

Please do not damage any wine, I want to pick up some before our cruise departs on

Oct. 21.

Have a good journey Keith & maybe you'll have some time to provide us with a cruise preview before we return to the Royal Princess in Barcelona after you. :)

Grazie Frank. :cool:

In Barcelona right now. Getting ready for Royal Princess on Saturday. Nothing going on other than the odd random person peacefully protesting. It's all good in the main tourist areas. Amazing city!

In Barcelona right now. Getting ready for Royal Princess on Saturday. Nothing going on other than the odd random person peacefully protesting. It's all good in the main tourist areas. Amazing city!

Thanks for the update. DD and new SIL will be getting off on Saturday! Leaving Barcelona on Monday a.m. Hope they get to see what they planned on... and hope all protests are peaceful.

Grazie Frank. :cool:

If are in Barcelona you might like to try gràcies, or gracias, unless you suspect your waiter is Italian....................