Allure of the Seas Cabin Light Controls

This may sound like an odd question, but I'm wondering whether the stateroom lights have manual switches or whether they are controlled in some way by a motion detector. To put it another way, do the lights go on automatically when you walk into a cabin? Do they stay on when you leave the cabin?

Two related questions:

1. Can you leave the bathroom light on all night?

2. Do the toilets flush manually or only via an electric eye?

These issues are of concern as I'm a Shabbat observant traveler hoping to sail on Allue next winter.

This may sound like an odd question, but I'm wondering whether the stateroom lights have manual switches or whether they are controlled in some way by a motion detector. To put it another way, do the lights go on automatically when you walk into a cabin? Do they stay on when you leave the cabin?

 

Two related questions:

 

1. Can you leave the bathroom light on all night?

2. Do the toilets flush manually or only via an electric eye?

 

These issues are of concern as I'm a Shabbat observant traveler hoping to sail on Allue next winter.

Allure has a night light in the bathroom, but you could also leave the light on all night. The toilets are the vacuum toilets that you have to push the button for them to flush. None of the lights are motion sensor lights, so they will stay on when you leave the cabin. The cabin steward will turn off lights and turn on bedside lights instead at turndown unless you tell them otherwise.

Thanks so much for the quick reply. This resolves issues that concerned me. We're looking forward to the cruise.

There is no "magic eye" watching your butt...no worries! Flush the potty when you're done!

There is no "magic eye" watching your butt...no worries! Flush the potty when you're done!

Observant People of Judaism cannot do work of sorts during Shabbat. One may also have to pre-tear tissues for use during this time. I have friends who remove the light int their refrigerator to assure they adhere as best they can.

Observant People of Judaism cannot do work of sorts during Shabbat. One may also have to pre-tear tissues for use during this time. I have friends who remove the light int their refrigerator to assure they adhere as best they can.

I was just reading up about Shabbat, and it is very interesting!

The varying degrees of observance especially.

One site states that using a light switch is OK because it uses no effort, but also states that lights should be on timers preset before as well?

I know ships can provide Kosher meals, but does that include challah and how do they serve it?

Also the prayers over meals, and the third meal before Shabbat is over. Do they have the food served in their Stateroom?

I am guessing the OP can light battery operated challah candles in their Stateroom?

All very fascinating learning about another culture and religion!

ex techie

Observant People of Judaism cannot do work of sorts during Shabbat. One may also have to pre-tear tissues for use during this time. I have friends who remove the light int their refrigerator to assure they adhere as best they can.

So how are they going to deal w the toilet - leave the stuff in the toilet until Shabbat is over. Also, what do they do if the steward turns off the lights in the room or throws away the pre-teared toilet paper.

One last question. When they come back to the room, they have to insert the key into a slot or over a magnetic reader. This involves actuating electrical contacts that cause the door to open which is essentially the equivalent of flipping on a light switch. Do they plan to leave the door unlocked for the 24 hours of Shabbat.

I am sure that I could come up with a lot more issues where they would have a problem if I worked at it.

If they are truly observant ultra-orthodox Jews, I would be interested in how they plan to deal with these and other issues.

DON

So how are they going to deal w the toilet - leave the stuff in the toilet until Shabbat is over. Also, what do they do if the steward turns off the lights in the room or throws away the pre-teared toilet paper.

 

One last question. When they come back to the room, they have to insert the key into a slot or over a magnetic reader. This involves actuating electrical contacts that cause the door to open which is essentially the equivalent of flipping on a light switch. Do they plan to leave the door unlocked for the 24 hours of Shabbat.

 

I am sure that I could come up with a lot more issues where they would have a problem if I worked at it.

 

If they are truly observant ultra-orthodox Jews, I would be interested in how they plan to deal with these and other issues.

 

DON

WOW!

ex techie

I don't know Don. Perhaps schedule a Q&A with your local Rabbi?

Brigbound, The light in our refrigerator is disabled on Shabbat, and we don't tear toilet paper either. This is routine for us and has no bearing on cruise issues.

Ex techie, This is not the place for an extensive discussion of the laws of Shabbat. Suffice it to say that our group will have a genuine Shabbat experience at sea. We will have three Shabbat meals, complete with all the appropriate rituals. We'll have services three times a day every day we're cruising, and a Torah will travel with us. There will be daily study sessions, too.

We have to deal with some issues, and this was one of them.

I do want to point out that turning on a light is not permitted on Shabbat. We use lights to be sure but use timers to turn lights on or off or just leave the lights on throughout Shabbat.

Brigbound, The light in our refrigerator is disabled on Shabbat, and we don't tear toilet paper either. This is routine for us and has no bearing on cruise issues.

 

Ex techie, This is not the place for an extensive discussion of the laws of Shabbat. Suffice it to say that our group will have a genuine Shabbat experience at sea. We will have three Shabbat meals, complete with all the appropriate rituals. We'll have services three times a day every day we're cruising, and a Torah will travel with us. There will be daily study sessions, too.

 

We have to deal with some issues, and this was one of them.

 

I do want to point out that turning on a light is not permitted on Shabbat. We use lights to be sure but use timers to turn lights on or off or just leave the lights on throughout Shabbat.

orthocruzer,

Please know that my post was just out of curiosity, unlike the one below mine.

I meant no offense.

I wish you and your group a safe and happy cruise.

ex techie

No offense intended Ortho. I was trying to give pertinent examples to others who obviously are curious (I guess I'll use that) about how encompassing observing this time can be. There are many interesting rabbinic lectures that speak to the very issues you brought up.

I only asked to better understand the challenges that some face when cruising.

No ill intent, judgement or offense.

I know some ships will light a battery powered menorah during Hanukkah, and that the meals are brought aboard sealed after blessing as they cannot cater with a Kosher galley.

That some groups will hold prayer meetings and some lines will reserve a space for them.

But that is pretty much my knowledge and experience of Jewish Guests on a ship.

I wish I knew more.

ex techie

Just a couple of thoughts.

As for lights being switched on and off, I am sure that if the OP informs RCI in advance their Stateroom Host will be informed already, and a post it note by the light switch could help if they are forgetful.

Also a small light with a timer is not on the prohibited list AFAIK.

Toilet paper can also be be pre torn, and left with another post it asking for it to be left.

As for the door, I guess there are two options. Either a person occupies the Stateroom for the duration of Shabbat, or they ask for a CM to open the door for them?

Just some thoughts.

ex techie

Brigbound, The light in our refrigerator is disabled on Shabbat, and we don't tear toilet paper either. This is routine for us and has no bearing on cruise issues.

 

Ex techie, This is not the place for an extensive discussion of the laws of Shabbat. Suffice it to say that our group will have a genuine Shabbat experience at sea. We will have three Shabbat meals, complete with all the appropriate rituals. We'll have services three times a day every day we're cruising, and a Torah will travel with us. There will be daily study sessions, too.

 

We have to deal with some issues, and this was one of them.

 

I do want to point out that turning on a light is not permitted on Shabbat. We use lights to be sure but use timers to turn lights on or off or just leave the lights on throughout Shabbat.

I am Jewish although Reform and I think that I understand at least some of the issues. I fully understand that you can easily handle the rituals of Shabbat on the ship and it is also not difficult to get kosher food. However, we all know that the designation that a food is kosher is different for different koshering agencies and the ultra-orthodox do not recognize all koshering agencies as kosher enough for them. I assume that you have verified which koshering agency approved the food served on the ship.

Concerning the lights, the wall switches can not be run with a timer as suggested by Ex Techie. Unless you bring your own lamp and plus it into the wall socket and use a timer or else you bring battery operated lights that you leave on for the entire Shabbat, I still do not see how you will handle the light issue.

Concerning the toilet, my understanding is that you are not allowed to do anything that results in flipping a switch which causes an action. When you press the flush button on the toilet, it results in an electrical switch being turned on somewhere on the ship which causes a vacuum to be applied to the contents of the toilet. How is turning on an electrical vacuum pump different flipping on a light switch.

With regard to the door locks, inserting the card into the lock clearly causes an electrical action which opens the lock. How can this be in compliance with the rules for Shabbat. The only solution that I can see is for you to put tape on the door lock so it does not lock the room but this will leave the room unlocked for Shabbat.

Just as an aside, I know that there are agencies that run glatt kosher cruises. Wouldn't it have been easier to take one of those cruises. Just wondering.

DON

Thanks for all the responses, for bringing up issues we might not have thought of and for sharing ideas.

I'm happy to share some more ideas a) because it's fun to do so and b) because it might help someone who searches for similar information later on.

Orthodox Jews have the same passion for cruising as other folks. The group I'm cruising with has organized cruises that involve Shabbat for several years. The issues Donaldsc raises are well known and are not major concerns.

The reason I created this post is because Allure of the Seas is a new ship using new technologies and I was particularly concerned about finding lights and toilets controlled by motion detectors.

Donaldsc is absolutely right when he says that inserting the keycard into the lock on Shabbat is not permissible under Jewish law. This can be managed in several ways and we'll leave it at that.

The toilet issue is a bit different because of the vacuum technology. While I'm not a rabbi (and will ask for some clarification concerning vacuum toilet technology) I don't believe this is a problem either. If my "flushing" the toilet indeed directly activates a pump or an electrical circuit, that could be an issue. My hunch is that the pump gets activated INDIRECTLY. I don't know much about sewage systems. But I live in a summer community where we have our own treatment plant. That plant has pumps. I don't directly control those pumps. The pumps don't switch on every time I flush the toilet. I'd be willing to bet that the same principle applies on the ship.

Donaldsc, the same concept applies to refrigerators. We open and close the refrigerator door many times on Shabbat. Does the compressor go on automatically every time? It's random. It's indirect. It's not a problem.

We will obviously make the crew aware of our needs -- we're cruising with more than 200 observant people. If a steward throws away pre-torn toilet paper, we can always use tissues!

If staterooms have table lamps (many hotels have lamps on night tables), we could use timers to control those lamps. If not, we'll just make do with the light from the bathroom. We obviously don't plan to spend much time in the stateroom, except to sleep.

Donaldsc notes that there are different standards when it comes to kosher supervision. The prepared meals that we'll be using meet the highest standards. The supervising agency is relied upon almost universally. In addition, our group will have a "mashgiach," someone who will be in the kitchen to make sure that there are no mixups.

Donaldsc, taking a glatt kosher cruise has one big advantage: freshly prepared food. In addition, there is likely to be an entertainment program featuring performers or cantors who are well know to Orthodox travelers. And there might be an educational component as well. There is one big disadvantage: glatt kosher cruises cost much much more. People who have been on them have been known to complain about the quality of the food. And the issues I raised in my initial post are still there. The only major difference is that the tour operator does the research, not me. And they MIGHT book a ship that has traditional door locks as well as the electronic ones and old-fashioned flush toilets!

One of the most interesting issues we have to deal with is when the Sabbath begins and, since we'll be sailing on Shabbat, when it ends. (For the uninitiated, Shabbat starts just before sunset Friday and ends about 45 minutes after sunset Saturday.) I know where we'll be at the onset of the Sabbath. I'm not so sure where we'll be 25 hours later. This is easy to resolve.

At the moment, my only issue needing clarification is the vacuum toilet issue. I'll let you know what I learn.

Very interesting Ortho:

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/47362/why-is-it-permissible-to-flush-a-toilet-on-shabbat

orthocruzer,

 

Please know that my post was just out of curiosity, unlike the one below mine.

I meant no offense.

 

I wish you and your group a safe and happy cruise.

 

ex techie

I didn't see anything disrespectful from others. There are tons of people out there, including me, who haven't a clue what Shabbat is.

I, for one, find this thread truly interesting in a bunch of ways. It is interesting to learn about this part of being a Jew. Please don't be offended or attack me for not being 100% politically correct on verbiage. My doctors are Jewish and a bunch of other people in my life. I am not trying to offend anyone and the fact I even have to clarify that shows how much people are trying to be politically correct so as not to offend.

Anyway, please continue to educate us on Shabbat and cruising. One that many of us haven't a clue existed that some people have cruising. This is my "one thing I've learned today" thing, so now I can go home :D. I mean, even the fact that they have someone in the kitchen double checking the cooking is fascinating.

If staterooms have table lamps (many hotels have lamps on night tables)

Might have to bring a lamp and timer. Every ship I've been on has fixed fixtures at the bed - usually on each side of the bed mounted and wire to the wall. Things that tip over tend to be avoided on ships.

As for the vacuum toilets - I well may be wrong in my understanding but I think the waste lines are always pulling a vacuum and the toilet switch just opens the bowl to the vacuum line. Not sure if that is mechanical or electrical. Might depend on the ship and ship age.

Very enlightening topic though. :)

Concerning the lights, the wall switches can not be run with a timer as suggested by Ex Techie. Unless you bring your own lamp and plus it into the wall socket and use a timer

DON

Just to be clear, I did not suggest that the Stateroom lights could be controlled by a timer.

I said "Also a small light with a timer is not on the prohibited list AFAIK."

So basically what you also said, bring your own lamp and plug it into the wall socket and use a timer.

ex techie

As for if the push button is electronic, or manual, this post (from Chief in 2013) may answer a typical cruise ship scenario, and it sounds mechanical to me, but I guess the only real way of knowing is to contact RCI special needs department and get them to speak to the engineers aboard to confirm the type of system on a fairly new ship like Allure.

It's due to the nature of the flush mechanism. The pushbutton is actually a vacuum valve, and when you push it, it cycles a vacuum driven sequence valve, which opens the discharge valve (empties the bowl), then closes the discharge valve, and then opens and closes the water valve to refill the bowl. I know, way more info than you wanted, but that's why it's a button not a handle.

 

Shore toilets, even tankless ones, use the water pressure to operate the flushing valve, and there is only one sequence, the water flows into the bowl, and this then flows over the s-trap and down the pipe.

 

Ship toilets are vacuum because you do not need to make the sewage pipe bigger the more toilets that lead to the pipe, you want it basically the same size all the way down. Vacuum toilets will also flush UP, so many cabins have this so that a common main can run above one deck and below the one above.

ex techie

This is one of the best threads in a long time that I've read on CC. So very interesting and informative.

This is one of the best threads in a long time that I've read on CC. So very interesting and informative.

+1

ex techie

Everyday is a school day, and by learning about each others customs and lifestyles, we are better for it. More cohesion and less division. Less ignorance, and more acceptance and understanding.

ex techie

Everyday is a school day, and by learning about each others customs and lifestyles, we are better for it. More cohesion and less division. Less ignorance, and more acceptance and understanding.

 

ex techie

As ortho states, there are ways to deal with the cabin door locking mechanism, but I will respect the desire to keep that private.

Nearly all the ship's lamps are hard wired into the wall, and even if they weren't, they are 220v, so you would need a 220v timer and plug adapter.

As for toilets, I don't know all the limitations presented by Shabbat, but I'll talk about the toilets themselves which may help the OP and others when discussing this with their rabbi.

The vacuum is constantly present in the pipes of the system. There is a valve that separates the piping from the toilet until flushed. The vacuum pumps in the engine room cycle on and off as required to maintain a set level of vacuum, so there is no direct correlation between a particular toilet flush and whether the pump cycles, similarly to what ortho says about refrigerator compressors.

There is nothing electrical connected to the toilet. As techie found in my previous post, it is strictly mechanical. The pushbutton actually pinches a small tubing that has the vacuum in it, and when you push the button, it "unpinches" the tubing allowing the vacuum to act on a mechanical timing device. This applies vacuum on one side of a piston, pulling it in one direction, against a spring on the other side of the piston. When the pushbutton is released, the vacuum is removed from the timer, but the spring does not have enough strength to pull the piston back against the vacuum. There is a tiny hole that allows air into the side of the piston to slowly bleed off the vacuum, and at a certain point, the spring brings the piston back. The motion of this piston opens further vacuum tubing to open the water valve and the "discharge" valve, which separates the toilet from the vacuum in the piping system. When the timer piston moves back under the spring force, the vacuum is removed from these two valves, and again, small "bleeder" holes allow the air to fill the vacuum and close the valves.

I don't know if these mechanical functions in direct response to pushing the button on the toilet are contrary to Shabbat or not, but I hope this helps.