HAL not being honest with loyal customers

My DW and I are booked on the Koningsdam Feb 14/2018 to Mar 7/2018 for an 11 and then a 10 day cruise. We have 5 other friends booked on all or part of these cruises but I have been checking all the postings here and it seems that our ship has already been reconfigured from a 11 & 10 day cruises to 3 seven day cruises.

According to CJcruzer who has a list of charters on HAL the Koningsdam has a charterfrom Feb 4 to 11/2018

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showt...light=charters

also according cruise critic member Kazu the Koningsdam from Feb 11 to 18 is doing an RSVP Charter Eastern Caribbean.

Is HAl letting people book cruises knowing that they already have these ships booked for charters? Isn't that false advertising?

It certainly sounds like it. Have you asked your TA or HAL representative about the charter?

I have to admit I never thought about large groups or charters until I recently started seeing more and more threads on here about them. It's not "floating" well with me.

Good luck and please let us know what happens.

My DW and I are booked on the Koningsdam Feb 14/2018 to Mar 7/2018 for an 11 and then a 10 day cruise. We have 5 other friends booked on all or part of these cruises but I have been checking all the postings here and it seems that our ship has already been reconfigured from a 11 & 10 day cruises to 3 seven day cruises.

According to CJcruzer who has a list of charters on HAL the Koningsdam has a charterfrom Feb 4 to 11/2018

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showt...light=charters

also according cruise critic member Kazu the Koningsdam from Feb 11 to 18 is doing anRSVP Charter Eastern Caribbean.

Is HAl letting people book cruises knowing that they already have these ships booked for charters? Isn't that false advertising?

It might just be a partial charter, not the entire ship??

We are also booked for the Feb. 14, 11 day cruise.

We had initially booked Feb. 4. It took quite a while before HAL notified us that the Feb. 4 cruise was chartered by LRBC group.

Since it was a 10 day cruise that had 7 days chartered, we knew it would take time for them to make new itineraries.

They allowed us to switch over to Feb. 14 for the 11 days, but Boytje has now let us know that RSVP has chartered a 7 day

cruise starting Feb. 11.

So that leaves a gap for Feb. 11 to Feb. 18. I'm hoping that the delay informing us of the charter is that they have to set up

a whole new cruise for those 7 days.

If we are lucky it will still be a 7 day cruise followed by a 10 day cruise.

Best to just wait until HAL informs you of the cancellation/change and see what they offer in compensation.

Looking forward to a cruise on Koningsdam. We also tried to book Koningsdam for Feb. 2017, but it also got chartered.

Is HAl letting people book cruises knowing that they already have these ships booked for charters? Isn't that false advertising?

No to the second question, because just as an individual cruiser can cancel and leave the cruise line in the position of having to sell the cabin again, a planned charter that's still some time off might not yet be confirmed, or contracted, and might not take place. So HAL's consistent practice is not to take the relevant cruises off sale straight away. I don't know when they do get taken off sale, but it's conceivable that it happens at the point at which the charterer becomes contractually bound to take the ship or when performance guarantees kick in, or something like that.

It might just be a partial charter, not the entire ship??

HAL makes a lot of money on the full Charters.

Don't have your TA call and ask what is happening.

Wait for HAL to call your TA -- HAL usually offers different cruises in almost the same time frame and with usually some shipboard credit.

This has happened to us a couple of times.

Is HAl letting people book cruises knowing that they already have these ships booked for charters? Isn't that false advertising?

This is my principal complaint with HAL. I believe these are 'contingent' charter where the charter is contingent on the organizer selling enough cabins.

This happened to me a couple of years ago. As soon as I learned about the contingent charter, I cancelled and booked on another line. I later learned that most cruise lines do this. You do have the option of waiting to see if HAL will offer you some perks for changing your booking. I've heard one or two hundred in obc is standard.

Some may suggest joining the charter but you should research RSVP first.

I'm not defending the practice but this is fairly standard in the cruise industry. ALL cruise lines do charter cruises, NONE of the cruise lines will inform booked (or potential new passengers) of a charter/cancellation until the contractual and financial obligations of the charter have been met, which can be months after negotiations begin. Until that time the cruises will continue to show available for sale on the cruise line websites and through travel agencies.

Getting "bumped" from a cruise for a charter, redeployment or drydock announcement stinks, but that's part of the cruise industry like as not. I have had all three happen to me on multiple lines......

My DW and I are booked on the Koningsdam Feb 14/2018 to Mar 7/2018 for an 11 and then a 10 day cruise. We have 5 other friends booked on all or part of these cruises but I have been checking all the postings here and it seems that our ship has already been reconfigured from a 11 & 10 day cruises to 3 seven day cruises.

According to CJcruzer who has a list of charters on HAL the Koningsdam has a charterfrom Feb 4 to 11/2018

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showt...light=charters

also according cruise critic member Kazu the Koningsdam from Feb 11 to 18 is doing anRSVP Charter Eastern Caribbean.

Is HAl letting people book cruises knowing that they already have these ships booked for charters? Isn't that false advertising?

No it's not false advertising.. HAL will not notify anyone until the charter is paid for by the chartering organization..

Every company does the same thing..It would be imprudent to take the ship off individual booking service when it's not paid yet..

Charters & groups often fall apart & sometimes they re-book as a partial charter.. If & when your dates are paid for by the chartering/group organization, Hal will probably offer those individuals who are booked a small OBC & give you alternate dates/ships to book..:cool:

As mentioned all cruise lines/Airlines do the same thing..I know because I'm retired from the travel industry..

I've posted this analogy before, but the chartering practice of apparently all the lines bothers me so much, I'll float it again...

It the same as my putting down a deposit on a new car and going back to the dealer the next day, only to learn someone came along after my purchase and offered more money for the same car, so the dealer sold it to them.

Not to worry says the dealer, we have lots of other cars on the lot that we'll give you a good deal on!

Does that seem fair to you???

Wait for HAL to call your TA -- HAL usually offers different cruises in almost the same time frame and with usually some shipboard credit.

The problem is that not everyone has flexibility in scheduling. I generally plan my vacation time a year to 18 months in advance (sometimes longer). I cannot always shift that time -- in fact, it would be better to say that it is nearly always difficult to shift that time.

At a minimum, if cruise ships are going to do this, I think it should be done BEFORE the possibility of purchasing airline tickets comes up. If they cancel my cruise 14 months in advance, I'd be okay with that because even though it might be difficult to reschedule, at least I wouldn't have already made my flight plans.

Great Link, do you happen to know if there are similar threads for charters for other cruise lines? This would be a great master thread for all cruise lines.

My DW and I are booked on the Koningsdam Feb 14/2018 to Mar 7/2018 for an 11 and then a 10 day cruise. We have 5 other friends booked on all or part of these cruises but I have been checking all the postings here and it seems hat our ship has already been reconfigured from a 11 & 10 day cruises to 3 seven day cruises.

According to CJcruzer who has a list of charters on HAL the Koningsdam has a charterfrom Feb 4 to 11/2018

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showt...light=charters

also according cruise critic member Kazu the Koningsdam from Feb 11 to 18 is doing anRSVP Charter Eastern Caribbean.

Is HAl letting people book cruises knowing that they already have these ships booked for charters? Isn't that false advertising?

No it's not false advertising.. HAL will not notify anyone until the charter is paid for by the chartering organization..

 

Every company does the same thing..It would be imprudent to take the ship off individual booking service when it's not paid yet..

Charters & groups often fall apart & sometimes they re-book as a partial charter.. If & when your dates are paid for by the chartering/group organization, Hal will probably offer those individuals who are booked a small OBC & give you alternate dates/ships to book..:cool:

 

As mentioned all cruise lines/Airlines do the same thing..I know because I'm retired from the travel industry..

I have been flying for 60 years and I have never had an Airline call and say "Sorry, we have chartered your flight " or even heard of it done.

I have a feeling that similar to Airline "Passenger Bill of Rights" enacted by law, that Cruise lines will bring it on themselves, i.e. forced to pay for canceled airline flights as an example, the travel insurance premiums paid, reparations for being closed out of the MDR on partially chartered cruises, etc. But most of all, the aggravation you have suffered dealing with it.

History shows that many industries keep raising the threshold of pain and insult to a point as did happen with the airline industry, and then the hammer comes down

It could be a Class Action Suit with an industry with deep pockets that lawyers love as well.

It could be a Class Action Suit with an industry with deep pockets that lawyers love as well.

Read your contract. You agreed to arbitration to resolve issues such as this.

I......

History shows that many industries keep raising the threshold of pain and insult to a point as did happen with the airline industry, and then the hammer comes down .......

The tipping point. Well worth repeating. Thanks for your comments.

While this is not a very pleasant occurrence for someone who books a cruise only to find it becomes a full charter (and they bump you) or a partial charter which overruns and basically takes over all the cruise features, it is a fact of mainstream cruising. It is fully within the line's business model to do this. And, remember, a publicly-held corporation is responsible to it's shareholders to get maximum revenue for the shareholders, not to placate a set of specific people who buy the product.

Yes, it is upsetting to have your vacation plans derailed. I am also one who gets ONE vacation a year and it's 10 days at the most now. If a cruise line (I'll expand to lines, since it is not just HAL who does this) bounced me at a late date for a full charter or I find that I have to share the ship with 500 Evangelical Christians or a Knitters convention, I'd be off that cruise in a flash. I'd be booking a land vacation to take it's place. Sure, it's not a cruise, but It is a vacation (I do more land than sea vacations anyway).

This is an excellent reason to always purchase "cancel at anytime, any reason" insurance when you put down your deposit. You'll get your funds back and will be able to do an alternative (and maybe more exciting) vacation. If you "self-insure", well, you are kind of at the mercy (ha ha) of the cruise line to give you an alternative that you can live with, or suck it up and endure the partial charter or lose the money from a full charter. That's what you signed up for when you booked the cruise and signed that you agree to the T&Cs...

.......And, remember, a publicly-held corporation is responsible to it's shareholders to get maximum revenue for the shareholders, not to placate a set of specific people who buy the product.

.......

You realize the irony of your statement, right?

So why did HAL on this particular N-A cruise choose to placate only the large group instead of the regular passengers. There is also that old saying about not eating your seed corn. And when HAL sends enough messages they will eat their regular passengers in order to preferentially accommodate large groups, we can only hope this keeps the "shareholders" happy.

Who exactly holds the largest blocks of CCL stock who in fact exerts this sort of control over HAL management?

Morningstar lists major CCL shareholders - who we are now told are allegedly telling HAL to ditch regular passengers, in lieu of larger groups: http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-major.html?t=CCL

I have been flying for 60 years and I have never had an Airline call and say "Sorry, we have chartered your flight " or even heard of it done.

I have a feeling that similar to Airline "Passenger Bill of Rights" enacted by law, that Cruise lines will bring it on themselves, i.e. forced to pay for canceled airline flights as an example, the travel insurance premiums paid, reparations for being closed out of the MDR on partially chartered cruises, etc. But most of all, the aggravation you have suffered dealing with it.

History shows that many industries keep raising the threshold of pain and insult to a point as did happen with the airline industry, and then the hammer comes down

It could be a Class Action Suit with an industry with deep pockets that lawyers love as well.

You are very lucky, but you probably never knew the flights were chartered! I'm retired from the European Airline industry..

I worked in the Reservation Departments of two Airlines for

32 years & every Airline, not only ours, chartered regularly scheduled flights.. They may not have told you that your flight was chartered, but they did cancel flights once they were paid by the chartering organization..

Our Reservation Agents also had to deal with Psgrs on other cancelled flights of carriers we did not work for..It was sometimes difficult to find space for previously booked Psgrs, both on our carrier & other carriers, in our busy season.. :cool:

You realize the irony of your statement, right?

 

So why did HAL on this particular N-A cruise choose to placate only the large group instead of the regular passengers. There is also that old saying about not eating your seed corn. And when HAL sends enough messages they will eat their regular passengers in order to preferentially accommodate large groups, we can only hope this keeps the "shareholders" happy.

 

Who exactly holds the largest blocks of CCL stock who in fact exerts this sort of control over HAL management?

No irony. The beancounters decided this large charter was in the best interest of it's bottom line and shareholders.

Just like airlines, they make changes that help the bottom line, but passengers do not like (baggage charges, discontinuation or reduction of flights between airports, no food, charging for food...). Some people show their displeasure by changing airlines - and sometimes find the same thing happening there. Flights are going out full.

I do not know who holds the largest blocks of CCL stock. I'm not interested in diving down into reports to find that. I do know that sometimes pension plans or funds are invested in big blocks of various companies, not necessarily a person like Gates or Buffett.

When it comes to charters/cancellations/redeployments and compensation a lot depends on the timing of the announcement. If a cruise line makes the announcement prior to their final pay date then usually they offer a small amount of onboard credit for the inconvenience. If it's once the penalty period has begun (which is rarely more than 90 days out and more typically around 75 days) then the compensation generally seems to be broader and most cruise lines will make some sort of provision to cover airline change fees and even sometimes airfare increases within a certain range. In many cases compensation is handled on an individual basis.

In the case of the OP we are discussing sailings that are 11ish months out. Airfare would only just have become available for the departure date and is most likely not yet available for the return flight. Many airlines like Southwest for example do not even have flights on sale for November 2017, let alone late February 2018. If one purchases non-refundable airfare at 11 months out, with as unpredictable as life is, it would only be prudent to purchase some sort of insurance to cover any airline change fees or reimburse for "voluntary" cancellation.

One of the projected charters during this time period is for RSVP and they have not yet begun to advertise or sell the cruise which means that the contract and finances for the charter between them and HAL is not yet finalized and HAL will still offer the original cruises for sale until this happens.

I understand those who say they have little flexibility with moving planned vacation dates. For those types of travelers I would always suggest they have a "plan B" in mind as a just in case.

Due to the limited number of ships in a cruise line fleets, changing market conditions, and other unpredictable events cruises lines can and do make changes to deployments and enter into charter agreements. Airlines make schedule changes all the time, some to accommodate charters, but it is far less obvious to us as consumers because of the larger scale of their operations and their partnerships with other airlines to reaccomodate passengers for the original city pairs and travel dates much easier. Hotels and resorts do this too. It's business pure and simple.

You realize the irony of your statement, right?

 

So why did HAL on this particular N-A cruise choose to placate only the large group instead of the regular passengers. There is also that old saying about not eating your seed corn. And when HAL sends enough messages they will eat their regular passengers in order to preferentially accommodate large groups, we can only hope this keeps the "shareholders" happy.

 

Who exactly holds the largest blocks of CCL stock who in fact exerts this sort of control over HAL management?

Morningstar lists major CCL shareholders - who we are now told are allegedly telling HAL to ditch regular passengers, in lieu of larger groups: http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-major.html?t=CCL

Accommodation is a more correct word than placation.

When groups are formed to take advantage of entertainment exclusive to that group, then the group organizers will ensure that the ship schedules activities such as dining to maximize participation by members of the group. Otherwise, there would be no reason to join the group. In this case, the group entertainment was coordinated with the late seating dining.

The members of the group paid a significant premium to participate in the group activities. IOW, they have paid for the 'accommodation'. Passengers outside the group did not. You may not like it, but this is the way the world works.

BTW, where did you hear that HAL is being told by major shareholders to ditch regular passengers? Are other cruise lines being told the same thing?

No irony. The beancounters decided this large charter was in the best interest of it's bottom line and shareholders.

Just like airlines, they make changes that help the bottom line, but passengers do not like (baggage charges, discontinuation or reduction of flights between airports, no food, charging for food...). Some people show their displeasure by changing airlines - and sometimes find the same thing happening there. Flights are going out full.

I do not know who holds the largest blocks of CCL stock. I'm not interested in diving down into reports to find that. I do know that sometimes pension plans or funds are invested in big blocks of various companies, not necessarily a person like Gates or Buffett.

When it comes to charters/cancellations/redeployments and compensation a lot depends on the timing of the announcement. If a cruise line makes the announcement prior to their final pay date then usually they offer a small amount of onboard credit for the inconvenience. If it's once the penalty period has begun (which is rarely more than 90 days out and more typically around 75 days) then the compensation generally seems to be broader and most cruise lines will make some sort of provision to cover airline change fees and even sometimes airfare increases within a certain range. In many cases compensation is handled on an individual basis.

 

In the case of the OP we are discussing sailings that are 11ish months out. Airfare would only just have become available for the departure date and is most likely not yet available for the return flight. Many airlines like Southwest for example do not even have flights on sale for November 2017, let alone late February 2018. If one purchases non-refundable airfare at 11 months out, with as unpredictable as life is, it would only be prudent to purchase some sort of insurance to cover any airline change fees or reimburse for "voluntary" cancellation.

 

One of the projected charters during this time period is for RSVP and they have not yet begun to advertise or sell the cruise which means that the contract and finances for the charter between them and HAL is not yet finalized and HAL will still offer the original cruises for sale until this happens.

 

I understand those who say they have little flexibility with moving planned vacation dates. For those types of travelers I would always suggest they have a "plan B" in mind as a just in case.

 

Due to the limited number of ships in a cruise line fleets, changing market conditions, and other unpredictable events cruises lines can and do make changes to deployments and enter into charter agreements. Airlines make schedule changes all the time, some to accommodate charters, but it is far less obvious to us as consumers because of the larger scale of their operations and their partnerships with other airlines to reaccomodate passengers for the original city pairs and travel dates much easier. Hotels and resorts do this too. It's business pure and simple.

You've both hit the nail on the head!

As a little shareholder, I'm delighted that HAL & the other Cruise Lines under the Carnival Plc umbrella are booking Charters & groups to supplement their direct Psgr bookings.. Also agree that they should not cancel their regular service & bookings until they get the payment for the groups & charters..

I understand those who work & have set vacations, but I too worked & had to be flexible when I made vacation plans.. :cool:

Reminder, the issue here was not cancelling a cruise for a charter, with notice several months out.

It is changing arrangements with no opportunity or mitigating compensation in the middle of a cruise for a "large" group" who got special favors at the expense of the regular passengers already booked and on-board.

Apparently not even an official note of "regret" for the disturbance, such as the one Westerdam passengers got last year for the exact same situation and perhaps the exact same group. (gospel singers) Caveat emptor.

Bottomline: we all need to now pay special attention to any upfront notices of large groups who are also using a ship and time you are considering for your own vacation.

Thanks to the CC posters who at least try to keep this a level playing field for regular and unwitting passengers who would chose to avoid this sort of second class treatment imposed after the fact by HAL management. The rose-colored glasses have been removed from my own eyes after learning about this incident. And the number of other CC posters now who declare this is the wave of the future.

Accommodation is a more correct word than placation.

 

.....

The members of the group paid a significant premium to participate in the group activities. IOW, they have paid for the 'accommodation'. Passengers outside the group did not. You may not like it, but this is the way the world works.

 

.....

Wow! Brutal. There you have it folks. And no notice to the regular passengers who were given no choice upfront to be down-graded against their reasonable pre-cruise expectation.

Caveat emptor. There are new sheriffs in town running HAL.

Reminder, the issue here was not cancelling a cruise for a charter, with notice several months out.

 

It is changing arrangements with no opportunity or mitigating compensation in the middle of a cruise for a "large" group" who got special favors at the expense of the regular passengers already booked and on-board.

 

Apparently not even an official note of "regret" for the disturbance, such as the one Westerdam passengers got last year for the exact same situation and perhaps the exact same group. (gospel singers) Caveat emptor.

 

Bottomline: we all need to now pay special attention to any upfront notices of large groups who are also using a ship and time you are considering for your own vacation.

 

Thanks to the CC posters who at least try to keep this a level playing field for regular and unwitting passengers who would chose to avoid this sort of second class treatment imposed after the fact by HAL management. The rose-colored glasses have been removed from my own eyes after learning about this incident. And the number of other CC posters now who declare this is the wave of the future.

Sadly ALL the cruise lines engage in this practice, and to my knowledge NONE of them inform passengers in advance of sailing when a large group will be onboard, and very few provide any notification to non-group guests even once onboard. This is true whether the cruise line is Carnival, Crystal or anything in-between. The cruise lines KNOW that non-group guests may choose to book other sailings hence the secrecy. I'm not a fan of the practice but it is industry wide and with the growth in incentive/affinity/theme cruise group business will continue to affect more and more of us "regular" passengers.

The impact of these large group can be quite significant. I have been on both sides of the equation and not sure there is a solution that works for all parties involved.