Is there a blurring of the line between Seabourn and HAL?

I don't really want to start a fight, but there are a couple of disturbing data points that I've run across recently.

We were having a discussion with Richard Maier, who we remembered as a junior waiter from our first Seabourn cruise in 2009 - now a "manager of public spaces". He said he was onboard for the launch of the new craft cocktail program after the start of the new year. Turns out it isn't just on Seabourn

A luxury cruise is no place for mediocre martinis, Mai Tais and margaritas. To boost its bar program, Holland America has partnered with 2015 James Beard Who's Who Inductee and Master Mixologist Dale DeGroff to reinvent their cocktail menu. DeGroff's original recipes and finessed takes on the classics will debut aboard ms Eurodam this month and will expand fleet-wide to all 13 Holland America passenger ships by spring 2016.

 

http://www.justluxe.com/travel/luxury-vacations/feature-1962334.php

Then, last month, we also saw the Encore promo video, detailing how fortunate it was that Adam D. Tihany was the designer for the interiors for the new ship. Well, it turns out that isn’t the only ship he’s been designing for:

Adam D. Tihany is regarded as one of the world’s pre-eminent hospitality designers, and he’ll make his mark with Holland America Line when ms Koningsdam debuts in April 2016. He is a leader in creating luxurious and innovative interiors in the world of hospitality and his work will touch all aspects of the guest experience.

 

http://www.hollandamericablog.com/2015/12/18/qa-renowned-designer-adam-d-tihany-reveals-koningsdams-enticing-interiors/

I have to believe this is an inevitable outcome of the move from Miami to Seattle and being placed under HAL. These are two data points that are out in the open -- how many aren't?

I would call this synergy and leveraging. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the initiatives involve high quality professionals.

We don't know if this "mixologist" will be developing the same cocktails on SB as on HAL. Also, a major difference is that the cocktails wouldn't be inclusive on HAL.

BTW, which ship are you on? Do you have a new cocktail menu to share with us?

This would be a sensible decision to use an expert designer for other brands in your stable.

I see nothing wrong or unusual with this.

If nothing else it means I should be able to have a proper drink made with fresh squeezed citrus. No more sweet and sour.

I know who the mixologist is now - we have several mutual friends and I'm very excited that he is doing the program.

Brian also did the cocktail program for Thomas Keller at Per Se and he is a frequent luxury traveler himself so I am confident he understands the expections of "our type".

He is onboard Sojourn as of today and will be doing a beach cocktail party in Thailand for the guests onboard. I'm looking forward to hearing the reports from those onboard who experience it!

Just because they may be using the same designer or mixing similar drinks doesn't mean the cruise lines are equal. It's interesting to me that conclusions drawn are that Seabourn is getting worse instead of HA getting better. Unless, of course, I'm misunderstanding the intention behind the phrase "blurring of the lines." If so, I apologize.

I know who the mixologist is now - we have several mutual friends and I'm very excited that he is doing the program.

 

Brian also did the cocktail program for Thomas Keller at Per Se and he is a frequent luxury traveler himself so I am confident he understands the expections of "our type".

 

He is onboard Sojourn as of today and will be doing a beach cocktail party in Thailand for the guests onboard. I'm looking forward to hearing the reports from those onboard who experience it!

Sounds like the new cocktails are being rolled out on Sojourn right now, anyone knows when they will be rolled out on Odyssey & Quest?

I know who the mixologist is now - we have several mutual friends and I'm very excited that he is doing the program.

 

Brian also did the cocktail program for Thomas Keller at Per Se and he is a frequent luxury traveler himself so I am confident he understands the expections of "our type".

 

He is onboard Sojourn as of today and will be doing a beach cocktail party in Thailand for the guests onboard. I'm looking forward to hearing the reports from those onboard who experience it!

The press release says Dale DeGroff. Who is your friend "Brian"?

The wife and I just booked a cruise. Seabourn was available but we went another direction. After our last cruise on Seabourn and witnessing the service level deterioration first hand....we truly said 'never again'.

It all started with a day of attempting to get someone to remove the caked on fecal matter from our suite toilet....we had just arrived to this surprise. They are now just a luxury cruise poser. I am sure someone was told to cut costs to increase profits....they are a shadow of their former selves.

That is disgusting. I wouldn't expect that on the Staten Island Ferry, let alone a "luxury" cruise ship.

HAL influence? More like HAL management. It's sooooo obvious.

In direct answer to the title of this thread:

No.

I have been on both seabourne and HAL multiple times. I've Been on both within the past year. HAL was fine. We had fun. Service was good.

But Seabourne is a different level. Smaller ships, fewer passengers. More personal service. More creative menus. A very different experience.

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

The wife and I just booked a cruise. Seabourn was available but we went another direction. After our last cruise on Seabourn and witnessing the service level deterioration first hand....we truly said 'never again'.

 

It all started with a day of attempting to get someone to remove the caked on fecal matter from our suite toilet....we had just arrived to this surprise. They are now just a luxury cruise poser. I am sure someone was told to cut costs to increase profits....they are a shadow of their former selves.

Your experience with your bathroom would bother me too. That being said, we have had nothing but exceptional service on our Seabourn cruises, including our last on the Quest in June/July of this year. Our stewardesses have been fabulous and the service we have received everywhere on board has been excellent. We have been on 4 Seabourn cruises (many more on other lines) and we have another booked next spring. I have to believe your experience was an unfortunate anomaly.

Of course it was an anomaly - unfortunate and upsetting though it might be - does anyone think it was done on purpose?

And did it really take a whole day to get someone to remove it (stating 'a day of attempting to get someone to remove etc.' suggests stewardess or hotel manager, or housekeeping manager were all unavailable)?

HAL is a mass market, bulge bracket supplier of corn syrup in plastic single servers while Seabourn in maple syrup in a jug. HAL competes with Royal Caribbean, Princess and Celebrity and Seabourn competes with Silversea and Crystal. That said, you can spend as much on HAL with surcharge wines, upgrade restos and a big cabin. Oh, and there is Club HAL where you can deposit your children. Apples and oranges.

Seabourn's management should always ensure that the brands remain different and discrete. So no Tour Managers saying that the tour yesterday was enjoyed by sister company Princess' passengers and that the singers and dancers just joined from HAL where they did the same show. And keep the upselling to a minimum; it's vulgar and not all inclusive and egalitarian Seabourn.

That's why the concern about management launching a ship, Encore, without a passenger laundry despite all the pre-launch demands by onboard staff for a laundry and what Seabourn's competitors offer. (Remember that howler Seabourn customer service excuse someone on CC reproduced saying that passengers won't need one and that Seabourn prefers to dedicate more space for other amenities on Encore?)

And what about the Retreat, an airless, viewless set of huts in a circle costing $350/day/couple for up to 30 on a 650 passenger ship, on the top deck most of which is off limits to the other 620 guests? See that on other premium lines? Is this Club HAL for adult show-offs and/or just a revenue grab effort that also weakens the brand on a ship that is already short on outdoor deck seating and recreation space versus its existing ships of the Odyssey class?

Hopefully, in the future we will see less confusion about branding the Seabourn brand. That's the responsibility of Seabourn's management, irrespective of what they also do for HAL on the side.

Happy and healthy sailing!

Your experience with your bathroom would bother me too. That being said, we have had nothing but exceptional service on our Seabourn cruises, including our last on the Quest in June/July of this year. Our stewardesses have been fabulous and the service we have received everywhere on board has been excellent. We have been on 4 Seabourn cruises (many more on other lines) and we have another booked next spring. I have to believe your experience was an unfortunate anomaly.

Of course it was an anomaly. The original Seabourn cruises we took were absolutely perfect. The last one started with this and didn't get any better. Explaining how to make simple drinks to a bartender, having other bartenders tell us no to certain requests, long waits for cold food....food going cold while waiting for forgotten requested items....all adds up to obvious deterioration of service. Our first Seabourn cruise was so spectactualer we did it again 3 weeks later. Our last one will keep us away until we read that issues have been addressed. I would look on Facebook Seabourn group for more info.

About the crappy toilet....we had to request a bathroom cleaning three times on our first day before it was done. We did get to listen to the staff gagging while it was being cleaned so I surmised they saw it the first time and just didn't want to clean it. Who would? But if it is your job to clean a suite....then get to it.

I travel a lot for work. One of my favorites is a limo company in New York State somewheres. They have a crappy old Chevy that is black. They put a limo label on the door. Doesn't make it one.

HAL and Seabourn are totally different. However, they needed to consolidate some items including headquarters/land based operations and some other areas.

Think of it like Marriott/Ritz Carlton. There are various functions that are consolidated on land.

It's all about synergies.

They needed to do this because before they did Seabourn was losing money so by consolidating some of the functions they saved on a variety of costs from real estate, to personnel to system and their maintenance.

Certainly if you look at Carnival as a whole they can run the cruise lines separately with each one having their distinctive brand but they got lots of synergies which took cruise lines that were on the brink of going out of business (Cunard) and turned them around.

Keith

Synergies, great B school term! They sysnergized themselves into a mediocre line branded as an ultra lux experience. The cost cuts are obvious.....apples to apples they went from great to a Royal Caribbean type line with fewer passengers.

Synergies, great B school term! They sysnergized themselves into a mediocre line branded as an ultra lux experience. The cost cuts are obvious.....apples to apples they went from great to a Royal Caribbean type line with fewer passengers.

I see this is only your third post on cruise critic. It would be helpful to me to know the number of experiences you have had with Seabourne and any other cruise lines.

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

NO We cruise with both regularly and have for about 20 years . Both lines have changed. HAL much more than Seabourn. But there is a world of difference between the two. HAL is definitely mass market where once it might have been a cut above. Seabourn is still a luxury experience, just a tad bit less formal which we like,

Just started a few years ago.....so 3 Seabourn......4 Windstar, 1 RYC, 1 SilverSea....Avalon early next month. We LIKE cruising. The one thing we noticed on SilverSea....above the beautiful boat....were the 100% of the meals overshadowed by people hollering at the Management about some failures of service. This seems to be the new Seabourn.

If I am at formal night, decked out in my Armani Tux, looking fine..... I should not have to return my food because it went cold waiting 20 minutes for some horseradish. Should I just suck it up and eat what I didn't order? On Carnaval, probably....but I don't go on Carnaval.

Seabourn did give us a bottle of mid range wine for the crappy toilet incident....I would have rather not had to deal with. The third cruise on Seabourn was a totally different experience than 1 and 2. I vote with my wallet.

Just started a few years ago.....so 3 Seabourn......4 Windstar, 1 RYC, 1 SilverSea....Avalon early next month. We LIKE cruising. The one thing we noticed on SilverSea....above the beautiful boat....were the 100% of the meals overshadowed by people hollering at the Management about some failures of service. This seems to be the new Seabourn.

 

If I am at formal night, decked out in my Armani Tux, looking fine..... I should not have to return my food because it went cold waiting 20 minutes for some horseradish. Should I just suck it up and eat what I didn't order? On Carnaval, probably....but I don't go on Carnaval.

 

Seabourn did give us a bottle of mid range wine for the crappy toilet incident....I would have rather not had to deal with. The third cruise on Seabourn was a totally different experience than 1 and 2. I vote with my wallet.

So -- as someone who hasn't tried Seabourn but has been recommended to it -- where is your wallet 'vote' going now? It doesn't sound like Silversea. Is WindStar a line that fits your luxury needs?

Well, truthfully, we like Windstar. My wife had surgery last New Years on her arm. A few days later the doc cleared her to fly and we were on a 7 day Windstar out of SXM. Granted we were on the same boat a few months prior out of Venice but the service the staff provided couldn't have been more attentive.

Almost every time she sat down a staff member was there with a pillow for her arm, she had an officer following her around for breakfast and lunch with a plate at the buffet. I offered, but they insisted. The little things.

Leave the tux at home (I like the formal night being ex-mil) and more relaxed. Slightly lower expectations on WindStar but never a complaint. Food not quite a good but great and also what you expect. Not as luxurious a boat, but not wondering what will go wrong today is a great way to enjoy a week or two on a ship.

It seems to me the complaints are now expected, promises made and then repeat is the business model. Synergies! Don't get me wrong, most will enjoy Seabourn. The service industry in general has been training the public to expect less for quite awhile.

We are trying an Avalon European waterways cruise early Oct....the reviews are amazing. We wanted to do the Seabourn 10 day Canada but just couldn't after last time. We want to like them, we are low maintenance cruisers. Although it might not sound like it on here. :)

Thank you Ronster, that is very helpful. We are considering doing Star Pride [oddly, ex-Seabourn!] for Iceland and they are much cheaper than Ponant or Scenic so the question was how they compare -- what I'm sensing is not quite the same level of luxury but perhaps more value at the end of the day.

Now as to your cruise on Avalon: you will probably have a good time, but this is an odd choice because Avalon is very much middle of the road among river cruise lines. Based on your preferences here, you would prefer the more luxury river lines: Crystal (new but so far so good), Tauck, Uniworld (but look at the decor before you book, some are very turned off), Scenic -- and in the same vein as Windstar: AMAwaterways (which is our favorite on the same 'enough luxury and more value' proposition).

Ronster, we also enjoy Windstar, love the smaller ships - and there is always Seabourn and SS for when we feel like a change. Jazzbeau, thanks for the tips, we are currently looking at rivercruising and wondering where to start - there are so many. Will follow up on your advice.