Why no gas turbine-powered Carnival ships?

Welcome to Cruise Critic! If you'd like to participate on our forums by joining in the conversation, please Register Now! Be sure to visit our FAMOUS Roll Call forums, where you can meet other cruisers sailing with you and share a tour or shore excursion and SAVE MONEY!

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
All times are GMT -4.
The time now is 09:38 PM.
#1
Rio Rancho (Albuquerque), NM
112 Posts
Joined Aug 2008
I was wondering, is there any reason why Carnival does not operate any gas turbine-powered ships? They are more environmentally friendly than the more common diesel-electric propulsion. RCCL's Radiance Class (basically their equivalent to Carnvial's Spirit Class) are gas turbine-powered.
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
<EMBED name=glitters pluginspage=http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer align=middle src=http://www.mycodesplace.com/glitter-maker/show.swf?message=CARNIVAL%20PRIDE&font=http://www.mycodesplace.com/glitter-maker/fonts/plainn_lib11.swf&glitter=http://www.mycodesplace.com/glitter-maker/glitters/glitter18.swf&clickURL=http://www.mycodesplace.com/glitter-maker/&type=0&clickLABEL=Myspace%20Glitter%20Maker&bevel =1&shadow=1&glow=1&blur=0&fade=0&blink=0&gb=6.6&ga =0.6&gi=0&gc=16711680&bb=0&bc=16711680&sb=14.4&sa= 0.7&si=0&sc=16711680&blb=7&ls=0&fontsize=35&num=18 width=478 height=88 type=application/x-shockwave-flash bgcolor="#ffffff" wmode="transparent">
Myspace Glitter Maker

Carnival Pride - 5/25/08

Spirit Class 4 EVER!!
#2
56,618 Posts
Joined Jul 2007
I can't answer that with any level of certainty but I'd expect that one reason is that the diesel motors do far more than drive the ship, in fact, they don't... They produce electricity that drives motors that drive the propulsion system.

Cruise ships consume ENORMOUS amount of electricity as they provide us with amazing venues for our entertainment, ice for our DODs and comfortably cool cabins.

I know that the Navy has used GE LM2500s in destroyers and some fast attack ships. In those applications the LM2500s drive the propellers through a reduction gear without the benefit of an intervening electric motor.

By the way, that LM2500 is a variant of the high bypass fan used on the 747 and a variety of other aircraft...

Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
Mach
I cruise, therefore I am...
#3
56,618 Posts
Joined Jul 2007
Wow... this really is an interesting issue. The pros and cons are pretty complex and both solutions have large pluses and minuses.

Initial cost of the traditional diesel solution is apparently quite a bit lower than the gas turbine solution. Diesel engines are VASTLY heavier than their gas turbine counterparts but that's a two edged sword. Ships need ballast to stay upright and those huge 12 cylinder engines provide an amazing amount of ballast. This is an important consideration as ships get larger and, most importantly, taller.

Power up is quite a bit slower for the gas turbine v. the diesel... 30 minutes for the gas turbine and 5 minutes for the diesel. I'd expect that some additional planning could overcome this issue but one never knows...

You're certainly right about the eco-friendliness of the gas turbine engine but a great deal of that advantage is soon to be lost with the advent of diesel engines utilizing ultra low sulfur fuels...

Great topic! I've learned a lot!!

Thanks!!

Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
Mach
I cruise, therefore I am...
#4
Atlanta
36 Posts
Joined Apr 2009
I know US destroyers also have a turbine/generator to generate the electricity on the ship as well. So maybe the answer is more that a more highly specialized maintenance crew would be required to service and operate gas turbines.
#5
56,618 Posts
Joined Jul 2007
Originally posted by MontTheDonk
I know US destroyers also have a turbine/generator to generate the electricity on the ship as well. So maybe the answer is more that a more highly specialized maintenance crew would be required to service and operate gas turbines.

Those certainly are issues in addition to being able to provide the space and components to be able to swap out a gas turbine engine underway...

I've been reading an interesting comparison here:

http://www.mandiesel.com/files/news/...20turbines.pdf
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
Mach
I cruise, therefore I am...
#6
Mission, TX
3,027 Posts
Joined Dec 2003
Originally posted by Host Mach
Those certainly are issues in addition to being able to provide the space and components to be able to swap out a gas turbine engine underway...

I've been reading an interesting comparison here:

http://www.mandiesel.com/files/news/...20turbines.pdf
For those who are looking foir the executive summary: Fuel cost for an ocean going gas turbine plant is almost twice that of diesel plant (using year 2000 oil prices). I imagine current propulsion system decisions, made at the executive level, are pretty easy to make given the current (and unpredictable) price of fuel.
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
New Years Dream 2017 Carnival Dream, Carnival Legend Alaska 7/16
LIBERTY OTS to PAYA BAY and other Fun Places! 6/16
Caribbean Princess-Christmas 2015 to Cozumel. Navigator Thanksgiving 2014 (So nice we did it Twice!),
Oasis OTS Western C 6/14(best cruise EVER!), Navigator OTS Western C Thanksgiving 2013,
Carnival Magic West 8/12,
Celebrity Summit to Bermuda - May, 2010,
Conquest III(The Search for Crackerjack)4/09C, ECSTASY B2B 11/08,
NCL Spirit-Central America 11/07, C Conquest II West C 1/07 - C Conquest 10/06 - West C, Voyager OTS 11/05 - Repo, NCL Star - Mex 3/05, Mariner OTS II - West C (The Wrath of Ivan) 9/04, Mariner OTS East C 1/04, Inspiration West C 4/03, C Pride East C 10/02,
Century West C 1/02, Empress Bermuda 9/01, Victory Canada - 9/00, NCL Crown West C -4/97, C Jubilee Mex - 2/94
#7
Memphis, Tn area
25,294 Posts
Joined Dec 2002
Also, it is my understanding that the ships don't run on "diesel" ( like the kind we put in our cars)....but a bunker oil .... which I would imagine is cheaper than the more refined "standard car diesel".
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
musicalcruiser@hotmail.com

COMPLETES THE FLEET

If it is Carnival and it floats....we have sailed it!

Hubby ... DIAMOND (every ship except the Carnivale)
Me ... DIAMOND (every ship starting with the Tropicale)
24 year old son ... DIAMOND (every ship starting with the Tropicale) ONLY Double Milestone under the age of 21 in the world.....woo hoo!!
Showing the world what a kid with Autism can do!!!
28 year old son... finally DIAMOND (college got in the way). About to "cruise more than all of us under the water" as a. Naval Officer.

Holiday Ship On A Stick with a MARBLE base...

#8
Barbados
26,596 Posts
Joined May 2007
I received an interesting email some weeks ago
featuring a large engine designed for ships.

Most people have no idea just how large and heavy these things are
but these few photos may serve to give an idea.

Engines this size or type may not even apply to cruise ships...I don't know..

.....................................


This is what the crankshaft looks like!

Notice the little ladder steps down each 'throw'-space..



Cylinder lineup!






Maximum power: 108,920 hp at 102 rpm
Maximum torque: 5,608,312 lb/ft at 102rpm




Your finished product, Sir -please sign here..


______________________________________
This is the blurb wot came with the email:


The Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C turbocharged two-stroke diesel engine
is the most powerful and most efficient prime-mover in the world today.
The Aioi Works of Japan 's Diesel United, Ltd built the first engines
and is where some of these pictures were taken.


It is available in 6- through 14-cylinder versions, all are inline engines.
These engines were designed primarily for very large container ships.
Ship owners like a single engine/single propeller design
and the new generation of larger container ships needed a bigger engine to propel them.

The cylinder bore is just under 38" and the stroke is just over 98".
Each cylinder displaces 111,143 cubic inches (1820 liters) and produces 7780 horsepower.
Total displacement comes out to 1,556,002 cubic inches (25,480 liters) for the fourteen cylinder version.


Some facts on the 14 cylinder version:

Total engine weight:

2300 tons (The crankshaft alone weighs 300 tons.)

Length: 89 feet

Height: 44 feet

Maximum power: 108,920 hp at 102 rpm

Maximum torque: 5,608,312 lb/ft at 102rpm

Fuel consumption at maximum power is 0.278 lbs per hp per hour (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption).
Fuel consumption at maximum economy is 0.260 lbs/hp/hour.
At maximum economy the engine exceeds 50% thermal efficiency.
That is, more than 50% of the energy in the fuel in converted to motion.


For comparison, most automotive and small aircraft engines have BSFC figures
in the 0.40-0.60 lbs/hp/hr range and 25-30% thermal efficiency range.


Even at its most efficient power setting
the big 14 consumes 1,660 gallons of heavy fuel oil per hour.

.
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
______________________

#9
AZ
3,669 Posts
Joined Jun 2002
Originally posted by aplmac

How's this for ballast Mach??
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
"What we've got here is... failure to communicate."
#10
56,618 Posts
Joined Jul 2007
Originally posted by joepeka
How's this for ballast Mach??

AWESOME ballast but not on a ship!!

A Conquest class has six Wartisla 12 W 46C 12 cylinder diesel engines that turn out 12,600 kW each. Talking about horse power makes little sense as they only drive generators, not propellers...
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
Mach
I cruise, therefore I am...
#11
Lynn Haven, Fl
2,736 Posts
Joined Mar 2007
Those photos are of a long-stroke, ultra-slow rpm direct drive diesel as would be used in a VLCC (Very Large Crude Carrier). The much smaller ones I have seen in some of the Canadian flagged Great Lakes carriers have strokes of over 7 feet.

The Wartsilas used in cruise ships are more like a railroad locomotive prime mover. This is a very efficient type of engine.

The gas turbine is a fuel sucking device unless it is run wide open 24/7. This thing uses almost the same amount of fuel (and it usually is bunker C, the same junk most marine diesels burn) if it is idling or running at 105% of power.

If the gas turbine was ideal for shipboard service, the VLCC fleet would be adopting it as these ships grind along for weeks at 10-12 knots and are rarely in port for more than 24 hours. This fleet is almost exclusively diesel powered except for the 30 and 40 year old relics that keep sailing for marginal operators.

Doc
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature



I cruise for Warm Chocolate Melting Cake!
#12
Mission, TX
3,027 Posts
Joined Dec 2003
Originally posted by LHP
Also, it is my understanding that the ships don't run on "diesel" ( like the kind we put in our cars)....but a bunker oil .... which I would imagine is cheaper than the more refined "standard car diesel".
Yes that's correct. Bunker number6 heavy fuel oil looks almost like tar at room temperature and its still tied to the price of oil. Also the fuel refining requirements of a gas turbines are slightly higher than that of a medium speed diesel.
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
New Years Dream 2017 Carnival Dream, Carnival Legend Alaska 7/16
LIBERTY OTS to PAYA BAY and other Fun Places! 6/16
Caribbean Princess-Christmas 2015 to Cozumel. Navigator Thanksgiving 2014 (So nice we did it Twice!),
Oasis OTS Western C 6/14(best cruise EVER!), Navigator OTS Western C Thanksgiving 2013,
Carnival Magic West 8/12,
Celebrity Summit to Bermuda - May, 2010,
Conquest III(The Search for Crackerjack)4/09C, ECSTASY B2B 11/08,
NCL Spirit-Central America 11/07, C Conquest II West C 1/07 - C Conquest 10/06 - West C, Voyager OTS 11/05 - Repo, NCL Star - Mex 3/05, Mariner OTS II - West C (The Wrath of Ivan) 9/04, Mariner OTS East C 1/04, Inspiration West C 4/03, C Pride East C 10/02,
Century West C 1/02, Empress Bermuda 9/01, Victory Canada - 9/00, NCL Crown West C -4/97, C Jubilee Mex - 2/94
#13
Mission, TX
3,027 Posts
Joined Dec 2003
The Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C turbocharged two-stroke diesel engine
is the most powerful and most efficient prime-mover in the world today.
The Aioi Works of Japan 's Diesel United, Ltd built the first engines
and is where some of these pictures were taken.

The cylinder bore is just under 38" and the stroke is just over 98".
Each cylinder displaces 111,143 cubic inches (1820 liters) and produces 7780 horsepower.
[


Even at its most efficient power setting
the big 14 consumes 1,660 gallons of heavy fuel oil per hour.

.
[/quote]

Helpped change the rings and a liner on one of these suckers my first week as a midshipman on the m/v Seawolf - way back in '87.
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
New Years Dream 2017 Carnival Dream, Carnival Legend Alaska 7/16
LIBERTY OTS to PAYA BAY and other Fun Places! 6/16
Caribbean Princess-Christmas 2015 to Cozumel. Navigator Thanksgiving 2014 (So nice we did it Twice!),
Oasis OTS Western C 6/14(best cruise EVER!), Navigator OTS Western C Thanksgiving 2013,
Carnival Magic West 8/12,
Celebrity Summit to Bermuda - May, 2010,
Conquest III(The Search for Crackerjack)4/09C, ECSTASY B2B 11/08,
NCL Spirit-Central America 11/07, C Conquest II West C 1/07 - C Conquest 10/06 - West C, Voyager OTS 11/05 - Repo, NCL Star - Mex 3/05, Mariner OTS II - West C (The Wrath of Ivan) 9/04, Mariner OTS East C 1/04, Inspiration West C 4/03, C Pride East C 10/02,
Century West C 1/02, Empress Bermuda 9/01, Victory Canada - 9/00, NCL Crown West C -4/97, C Jubilee Mex - 2/94
#14
Barbados
26,596 Posts
Joined May 2007
MG -the things you learn on the CC Message boards!!

So...why then did RCCL opt to 'try-out' (?) the Gas Turbine thing
on the four Radiance Class vessels...never to repeat it again?
Was it a design experiment?

Was it a good idea at the time, or what?
Fuel was cheap back then?
What?



.
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
______________________

#15
South Carolina
78 Posts
Joined May 2008
As an ex-Coastie, I've worked on ships with both Diesel/Electric and Gas Turbines. Turbines tend to be not very economical at higher ship speeds. One class of ship I worked on had CODOG plants, two diesels for low speed (basically under about 17 knots) and gas turbines for high speed with the associated gearing to change between the two sources. The ship class I spent more time on was Diesel Electric. The advantage there was that if you are manuevering a lot (e.g. going ahead/astern ) repeatedly, diesel/electric drive is more responsive. Rather than waiting for your gearbox to slow down and stop then reverse, on an electric drive you are reversing the electric current flow which can be almost instantaneous. Watch Titanic and see how long it took to reverse those engines (verticle quadruple expansion). Those weren't turbines but still worked thru a gear train. Given that the Carnival ships generally do not use tugs much, at least as I have seen, the combination of the Azipods and thrusters give the bridge superb control that's almost instantaneous.

Interestingly enough, electric drives equipped some of the US battleships that were present at Pearl Harbor in 1941. They were of course powered by steam driven generators instead of diesels as there weren't diesels big enough to drive a battleship. World War II era submarines were also diesel electric. So the Diesel/Electric drives on the Carnival ships are in some ways a step back to the past. They are using high efficiency diesels and diesel's tend to run best at higher power ranges which a generator allows without varying the engine speed a lot.

The Navy uses gas turbines more for their acceleration I believe that economy. After all, the taxpayers pay the fuel bills for the Navy. Read somewhere the Navy is looking at going back to electric propulsion for some applications as it's a technically more efficient powerplant. Match the generator size to the most economical power setting on the generator and your all set. On the cruise ship's the trick I'm sure is balancing the Housekeeping loads (A/C, icemakers, cooking appliances and all the other creature comforts) and the propulsion loads. I would guess they drop generators off line late in the evening when everybody goes to bed then start them up again early in the morning to cook breakfast.

JMHO, your mileage may vary......
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature


BlackHullSailor

Carnival Legend Nov 2008 Western
Carnival Miracle Nov 2009 Eastern
Norwegian Sun Nov 2010 Western
Zuiderdam Nov 2011 Southern
Carnival Dream Nov 2012 Western
Regal Princess May 2015 Baltic
#16
Connecticut
19,755 Posts
Joined Apr 2006
Originally posted by joepeka
How's this for ballast Mach??
Imagine trying to do an oil change on that baby
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
Carnival Celebration (1 sailing) 07/96 (Western Carib.)
Carnival Imagination (2 sailings) 07/98 (Western Carib.) 04/09 (Bahamas)
Carnival Destiny (2 sailings) 08/99 (West. Carib.) 08/03 (Southern Carib.)
Carnival Triumph (1 sailing)07/00 (Eastern Carib.)
Carnival Pride (4 sailings) 07/01 (Western Carib.) 07/05 (Mex. Riviera) 04/12 (Eastern Carib.)12/16 NYE cruise Eastern Carib
RCCL Majesty of the Seas (1 sailing)04/02 (Bahamas)
Carnival Spirit (2 sailings) 07/04 (Alaska) 07/08 (Alaska)
Carnival Valor (1 sailing) 08/05 (Eastern Carib.)
Carnival Ecstasy (1 sailing) 04/06 (Cozumel, Progresso) Platinum Cruise
Carnival Liberty (4 sailings) 07/06 (Med cruise) 02/07 (Panama Canal) 07/08 (Exotic Eastern Carib.)
02/07 (Panama Canal) 02/11 (Exotic Eastern Carib.)
Carnival Inspiration (1 sailing) 8/07 (Western Carib.)
MSC Orchestra (1 sailing) 2/09 (Eastern Carib.)
Carnival Splendor (3 sailings) 08/09 (Mexican Riviera) 08/13 (Eastern out of NYC) Milestone Cruise 08/14 (Eastern out of NYC)

Carnival Dream (1 sailing) 8/10 (Western Carib.)
Carnival Magic (2 sailings) 02/12 (Western Carib.) 02/15 (western Carib.)
Carnival Victory (1 sailing) 08/12 (Southern Carib.)
Carnival Legend (1 sailing) 02/13 (Western Carib.)
Carnival Breeze (3 sailings) 04/13 (8 day Eastern Carib.) 12/14 6 day Western NYE cruise 04/15 6 day western Carib. Diamond Cruise
RCCL Oasis of the Seas (1 sailing) 03/14 (Western Carib.)
Carnival Sunshine (2 sailings) 08/15 (8 day Southern Caribbean) 02/16 (8 day exotic eastern Caribbean)
Carnival Vista (1 sailing) 07/16 (8 day western Med cruise)

Upcoming Cruises:

Carnival Vista 04/17 (8 day Eastern Carib.)
Carnival Pride 07/17 4th floor Vista suite... (7 day eastern Caribbean)
Carnival Vista 08/17 (8 day southern Caribbean )
Carnival Breeze 11/18 (13 day Journey cruise Eastern Carib)
Carnival Horizon 7/18 (eastern out of NYC)
#17
Mission, TX
3,027 Posts
Joined Dec 2003
Originally posted by aplmac
MG -the things you learn on the CC Message boards!!

So...why then did RCCL opt to 'try-out' (?) the Gas Turbine thing
on the four Radiance Class vessels...never to repeat it again?
Was it a design experiment?

Was it a good idea at the time, or what?
Fuel was cheap back then?
What?


.
http://www.memagazine.org/backissues...ry/luxury.html

"Green" was more en vouge. Was supposed to deliver less vibration too. Didn't seem to deliver on the vibration front, and RCCL learned the hard way that folks might like to say "go green" but they are seldom willing to pay for it. They're also not likely to buy into the "cutting edge" thing when the can't see it.

Fuel went way up, the diesel guys got better, and most of the turbines also got parred with AZI-PODS. Seems like real world results have proven both technogies to be better on the drawing board than in application. While the gas turbine is certainly not new technology (its essentially a jet engine) most of the cogen stuff was more protoypical in nature.
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
New Years Dream 2017 Carnival Dream, Carnival Legend Alaska 7/16
LIBERTY OTS to PAYA BAY and other Fun Places! 6/16
Caribbean Princess-Christmas 2015 to Cozumel. Navigator Thanksgiving 2014 (So nice we did it Twice!),
Oasis OTS Western C 6/14(best cruise EVER!), Navigator OTS Western C Thanksgiving 2013,
Carnival Magic West 8/12,
Celebrity Summit to Bermuda - May, 2010,
Conquest III(The Search for Crackerjack)4/09C, ECSTASY B2B 11/08,
NCL Spirit-Central America 11/07, C Conquest II West C 1/07 - C Conquest 10/06 - West C, Voyager OTS 11/05 - Repo, NCL Star - Mex 3/05, Mariner OTS II - West C (The Wrath of Ivan) 9/04, Mariner OTS East C 1/04, Inspiration West C 4/03, C Pride East C 10/02,
Century West C 1/02, Empress Bermuda 9/01, Victory Canada - 9/00, NCL Crown West C -4/97, C Jubilee Mex - 2/94
#18
Memphis, Tn area
25,294 Posts
Joined Dec 2002
Originally posted by nealstuber
Yes that's correct. Bunker number6 heavy fuel oil looks almost like tar at room temperature and its still tied to the price of oil. Also the fuel refining requirements of a gas turbines are slightly higher than that of a medium speed diesel.
Yea.... I got one right!!! LOL

The things you learn from hanging around Captai Scala!!!
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
musicalcruiser@hotmail.com

COMPLETES THE FLEET

If it is Carnival and it floats....we have sailed it!

Hubby ... DIAMOND (every ship except the Carnivale)
Me ... DIAMOND (every ship starting with the Tropicale)
24 year old son ... DIAMOND (every ship starting with the Tropicale) ONLY Double Milestone under the age of 21 in the world.....woo hoo!!
Showing the world what a kid with Autism can do!!!
28 year old son... finally DIAMOND (college got in the way). About to "cruise more than all of us under the water" as a. Naval Officer.

Holiday Ship On A Stick with a MARBLE base...

#19
Western Praires of Canada
1,229 Posts
Joined Oct 2007
The radiance class ships from RCCl such as the Jewel of the seas burns 35 gallons of fuel per MINUTE (yes minute)and is more exspensive fuel then the low grade stuff used by Carnival.I would say Carnival is smart for staying with the diesels from a business point.Maybe thats why Carnival is much cheaper to cruise then RCCL.I have been on both lines so i can compare.
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
RCCL Jewel of the Seas Feb. 2008
CCL Valor Feb. 2009
CCL Liberty Jan.23rd 2010
CCL Glory Feb.6th 2011

#20
Home of the "Tarheels"
22,907 Posts
Joined Oct 2004
Originally posted by CarnivalPride
I was wondering, is there any reason why Carnival does not operate any gas turbine-powered ships? They are more environmentally friendly than the more common diesel-electric propulsion. RCCL's Radiance Class (basically their equivalent to Carnvial's Spirit Class) are gas turbine-powered.
Just a thought but, after the Radiance Class I don't think they ever used it on another ship......
Hmmmmmm.......
Expand Signature
Collapse Signature
"Enjoy life now - It has an expiration date.....


"Cruise Critic" official group cruise group leader...September 18th 2010...Carnival Fantasy out of Charleston, SC. The cruise I met my sweetie on...

CCL: Fantasy (3)-Sensation-Miracle-Liberty-Inspiration-Destiny (2)-Glory-Dream-Valor
RCCL: Grandeaur (2)-Enchantment
NCL: Leeward-Dawn-Getaway
HAL: Veendam (3)-Ryndam (2)-Maasdam
Celebrity: Zenith (2)-Horizon-Eclipse
Princess: Golden
Regal: Regal Empress (2)

Upcoming cruises...


NCL Jade Dec. 26, 2016 for New Years...