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Holland West Coast (including Noordam) plagued with Norovirus


ChicagoDude
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Holland America ships are clean, IMO their standards are good.

We were on Fantasy last year with a one year old and a three year old and noticed exceptional cleanliness, including full time restroom attendants. My daughter still wiped down surfaces as best she could, just like she wipes Target shopping carts and restaurant tables when in her home town.

Hopefully your twins are walking when you cruise but whether they are crawlers or walkers use Clorox wipes to clean surfaces. Wipe down hotel rooms, ship cabins, restaurant tables, planes. Wash their hands and your hands often with soap and water.

Enjoy your vacation, if the babies are healthy you don't need to live in a bubble.

 

Next time you sail on HAL, take the side cover off your bathtub. You will discover a 15 year growth of black mold hidden there.

I tried for years to get permission to clean those areas, but HAL management was too cheap to do it.

Then speak to an engineer about the air handling system, and try to get him to admit how often they change the filters. The correct answer is "never". Once again, HAL is too cheap to do the right thing.

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The CDC site on Noro states that is results in 19-21 million cases a year. That equates to 6% of the US population, sound familiar to your number above? So, if the general population is so affected, why don't we hear about widespread outbreaks all over the US? Because it relies on a fixed population in a closed environment, like a cruise ship ...

 

So, in 4 cruises, with lets say 9000 total passengers, have you discussed noro virus, or any illness on a ship with 5% of them (450 people)?

 

You evidence some good points in general but a total misunderstanding of statistical analysis:

 

1) if CDC reports 19-21 million cases a year, that DOES NOT equate to 6% of the population AT ANY GIVEN TIME, unless the Norovirus typically lasts a year per case (which of course it doesn't) ; assuming for the moment that each case lasts an average of 10 days which is very unlikely, the total number of people suffering from Norovirus AT ANY GIVEN TIME would be 10/365 X 19-21 million, or 500,000 to 600,000, not 19-21 million, get it?

 

2) If 6% of the population is infected with Noro at any given time I would only need to talk to 15-17 people to have a statistical likelihood of talking to people who has it currently if I spoke to 450 people 27 people on average should have had it personally within the past year; now I have not made a scientific study but on my 20+ total cruises I have met people with upset stomachs that they ascribed to sea sickness but nary a one ship Noro victim; I know they are out there and I suspect the culprit is that more and more people's immune systems are compromised rather than anything particularly wrong about the ship.

3) for the reasons stated above I distrust the 6% Noro estimate at any given moment which would in fact suggest an average of more than 500 million cases of Noro per year. That clearly is not even remotely happening. Even 500,000 - 600,00 a year seems high but not impossible.

 

Statistics are great, but a bit of practical reality can also be helpful.

How many Americans who contract Norovirus at home actually report it to the CDC?

 

How many times do you hear a friend say that he has the "stomach flu" and is taking a few days off work? Did he contact the CDC?

 

How many people think they have influenza or a bad cold for a week or ten days, but really have Norovirus? Do they contact the CDC or a hospital for verification?

 

The CDC can only guess how many Americans get Norovirus every year. But without reliable numbers, it is only a guess.

 

Norwalk Virus has been with us for millennia, but was only "discovered" in Norwalk Ohio a few decades ago.

It is so similar to many other viruses that we didn't even know it existed. It is impossible for anyone to know how many cases there are every year.

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The key phrase is "after their symptoms have resolved" rather than when they are diagnosed. But, hey, I'm not a doctor and I'm sure the ship doctors know what they are doing. It just seemed a little odd given my experience on the Riviera when the code red was issued. Maybe rules are different prior to a code red being officially called.

 

But I have to say, I'm starting to give more credit to Oceania for how they handled the outbreak in that while you were confined to your cabin for that 4 day period, they took your key card away. That way if you snuck out and wanted to go up to the Lido deck or the MDR to get something to eat, other than what they would deliver to your cabin, you couldn't because they were checking to make sure you had a key card AND you sanitized your hands before entering.

 

I know it was the pits if someone caught it, but it gave the passengers not infected some piece of mind during a very stressful time when all the public areas on the ship had pretty much been shut down other than maybe the main theater until all cases had been cleared, which turned out to be the last day of the 14 day cruise.

 

Ken don't give Oceania too much credit.

 

I suspect they were ordered by CDC to take very strong measures.

 

We were on the first cruise when Noro raised it's ugly head. No numbers were ever given and we found out more on the CDC website than we did from the captain.

 

Quarantine was only 24 hours on that cruise and preventative measures were not good. Only thing closed was the laundry. Everything else remained open, all condiments out to be touched, etc. Cooking classes still happened and people eat what they prepare there.

 

The outbreak did not get controlled but increased to the level that Bermuda refused us entrance.

 

I think by the time you cruised it was the 4th outbreak? I know from reading the reports that O was reprimanded for the reporting and management of our Noro cruise. I suspect that they were told to do certain things but that's just my suspicion.

 

By the way, our next door neighbours were quarantined for 24 hours and there was nothing on their door nor were their keys takn away ;). She told me after the quarantine period was over and could go back to her cooking classes.

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Oceania turned me off when, for muster drill, we were seated in the dining room, with all the cutlery, glassware and plates set for dinner. While waiting for everyone to file in and take a seat - many at our table (possibly at other tables) were toying with the utensils, rubbing their fingers around the rim of goblets, fiddling with and using the napkins.

 

It was a real turn off - actually i went and booked late seating for specialty restaurant for sailaway night.

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Where are the best places to contract Norwalk Virus?

 

Locations where large numbers of people are more or less confined in small spaces for long periods, without much fresh air or sunshine.

 

Examples: Prisons, hospitals, schools, nursing homes, cruise ships, ...... and Alaska.

People who live in Alaska spend about 9 months of the year inside, waiting for the snow to melt, staying dry and warm, and avoiding mosquitoes, black flies, and cruise passengers.

 

Norovirus outbreaks on land in Alaska are legendary. Would it be illogical to assume that some of those outbreaks spread to cruise ships visiting Alaska?

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We had a similar experience on HAL. This past June we sailed on the K and our muster station was the specialty restaurant Sel de Mer. We were also instructed to sit at tables that were fully set with glasses, plates and cutlery. I didn't wait around to see whether the tables were reset for the evening's service, but I suspect that it wasn't.

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CDC rules require cruise ships to UN-set restaurant tables that are unused for more than 6 hours in order to prevent cross-contamination during indoor muster drills.

 

HAL takes short cuts by setting up the tables just before the muster drill to avoid breaking the rules. But this exposes passengers to unnecessary risks of contaminating the table settings. Doing it properly and safely would require more staff. HAL will not increase staffing for any reason - including your health.

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we have a relative out of state who works with large company that contracts maintenance services that do various larger maintenance when ships are in port......his company serves 3 different ports in US and works with multiple cruise lines......he has provided and supervised these services for close to 17 years......he has mentioned to us several times that cruise lines and individual ships do not change their ac/heat air filters regularly, do not steam carpet until badly stained and as noted in prior post they do not address routine mold issues that are hidden out of view........while all that contributes to a ripe environment of potential sickness we do have to remember that people "transmit" the illness and expose others to whatever is being transmitted whether it is gastro or respiratory related. MY POINT: we have to be proactive as we can and go knowing there are various risks. Take precaution with public space and take related medications that you might need. We have been on less than 10 cruises with 3 different cruise lines and one of us has typically come back with a cold but I know that can originate from ship or airplane or anywhere. Go prepared and enjoy your trip!!

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Travel 101. Sick passengers need to isolate themselves, most recover in a day or two. They are infectious before symptoms appear which is why the illness spreads.

 

A number of people have stated that you can spread the virus even before symptoms appear.

 

This is what the CDC's "Norovirus Illness: Key Facts":

 

• You are contagious from the moment you begin feeling sick and for the first few days after you recover.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/downloads/keyfacts.pdf

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Next time you sail on HAL, take the side cover off your bathtub. You will discover a 15 year growth of black mold hidden there.

I tried for years to get permission to clean those areas, but HAL management was too cheap to do it.

Then speak to an engineer about the air handling system, and try to get him to admit how often they change the filters. The correct answer is "never". Once again, HAL is too cheap to do the right thing.

 

On a recent cruise, we saw all the vent covers in our hallway removed and the stewards were vacuuming. Not a full deep clean, perhaps, but that had to get SOME dust out of there. And this was routine, no Noro on that cruise.

 

I give HAL credit for being proactive. Twice we've been on cruises where there have been a number of people with "GI symptoms." Both times, the Captain made the announcement that measures were being taken to reduce transmission and he updated numbers every day. (No matter what the circumstance, HAL Captains use the phrase "abundance of caution.") Any communal objects like salt and pepper were taken away. Servers were at the drinks station in the Lido. Nothing was self serve. In both cases, it didn't seem like a big outbreak. Not a lot of "do not disturb" signs in evidence, the ship seemed to have as many people around as usual. Certainly nothing like the massive outbreak a friend experienced on a mega ship a few years ago, where the staff did far less to contain it. She said the ship was a ghost town, as people were staying in their cabins, suffering.

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......................

Then speak to an engineer about the air handling system, and try to get him to admit how often they change the filters. The correct answer is "never". Once again, HAL is too cheap to do the right thing.

 

Interesting points! On AMDM, during May, the Asst Facility Manager took two wipers from the engine room and for the duration of a month, they replaced all air conditioning filters in all guest cabins.

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Interesting points! On AMDM, during May, the Asst Facility Manager took two wipers from the engine room and for the duration of a month, they replaced all air conditioning filters in all guest cabins.

 

I remember them coming into our cabin to replace, He bonked his head on the access panel in the dressing room and then apologized to us. I said "you didn't hit my head- are you OK?" He was fine and we all got a good laugh.

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CDC rules require cruise ships to UN-set restaurant tables that are unused for more than 6 hours in order to prevent cross-contamination during indoor muster drills.

 

HAL takes short cuts by setting up the tables just before the muster drill to avoid breaking the rules. But this exposes passengers to unnecessary risks of contaminating the table settings. Doing it properly and safely would require more staff. HAL will not increase staffing for any reason - including your health.

 

We were on K'dam in April and our muster station was in MDR. Although the tables were set for early dinner, the settings were covered with a table cloth.

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Too many people like to use personal anecdotal stories to explain how the world works. It is not that simple.

 

A surprisingly high percentage of people contract Norovirus and never know it. Their symptoms are so mild that they think they have a cold or a hangover. But they are still contagious and spreading the virus to everyone else.

Many Asians with type A or B blood can be carriers of the virus without ever experiencing any symptoms at all. They are also spreading the virus to those who are not immune.

 

This is I believe the most salient comment that's been made on this subject. Extrapolating my anecdotal experience and then making assertions about what I "should" have experienced is of course wrong. I'm not a butterfly - I've been traveling around the world since 1984, in places that were hardly known for their sanitation practices - my first overseas trip to Mainland China. I've had bouts of gastro over the years and would guess that this might result in some immunity.

 

In my view the way this has been handled by Holland has been the issue. Like any hotel that experiences high occupancy continually, keeping high standards is a continual process. Given the CDC reporting of incidents it would seem to be the case that HAL is having a much more difficult time with this challenge. A management issue.

 

And implementation of roadblocks in the reporting process makes the evaluation of the real situation difficult.

 

In our limited experience with cruising I've noticed that these businesses make it very difficult to contact and discuss complaints with management. I've routinely been told by low-level employees "my supervisor is unavailable" and in one case on this cruise "the medical officer doesn't talk with the passengers". Even the communication process with HAL via email or other electronic method has been artificially limited. This is clearly by design.

 

If I have a problem with an airline flight, I've always been confident that I can report it to the right person and get an appropriate answer. Once one of the big legacy airlines had their chief pilot call me and discuss an issue I had raised. The airlines are routinely given the stick in the media but they move much larger numbers of customers than the cruise lines and I've found them very responsive. The reason for this is simple - if you can't trust your airline with something simple, how can you trust them with a maintenance, security, or safety issue?

 

"We'll book your cruise and take your money, but if something goes wrong, you're on your own." Is this the management philosophy of ALL the mainstream cruise companies?

 

The whole event has caused us to look more closely at any continued use of HAL and/or the other Carnival owned companies. We enjoy the cruising experience. And we're only going to give our money to people we can trust.

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This is I believe the most salient comment that's been made on this subject. Extrapolating my anecdotal experience and then making assertions about what I "should" have experienced is of course wrong. I'm not a butterfly - I've been traveling around the world since 1984, in places that were hardly known for their sanitation practices - my first overseas trip to Mainland China. I've had bouts of gastro over the years and would guess that this might result in some immunity.

 

In my view the way this has been handled by Holland has been the issue. Like any hotel that experiences high occupancy continually, keeping high standards is a continual process. Given the CDC reporting of incidents it would seem to be the case that HAL is having a much more difficult time with this challenge. A management issue.

 

And implementation of roadblocks in the reporting process makes the evaluation of the real situation difficult.

 

In our limited experience with cruising I've noticed that these businesses make it very difficult to contact and discuss complaints with management. I've routinely been told by low-level employees "my supervisor is unavailable" and in one case on this cruise "the medical officer doesn't talk with the passengers". Even the communication process with HAL via email or other electronic method has been artificially limited. This is clearly by design.

 

If I have a problem with an airline flight, I've always been confident that I can report it to the right person and get an appropriate answer. Once one of the big legacy airlines had their chief pilot call me and discuss an issue I had raised. The airlines are routinely given the stick in the media but they move much larger numbers of customers than the cruise lines and I've found them very responsive. The reason for this is simple - if you can't trust your airline with something simple, how can you trust them with a maintenance, security, or safety issue?

 

"We'll book your cruise and take your money, but if something goes wrong, you're on your own." Is this the management philosophy of ALL the mainstream cruise companies?

 

The whole event has caused us to look more closely at any continued use of HAL and/or the other Carnival owned companies. We enjoy the cruising experience. And we're only going to give our money to people we can trust.

 

Then don't sail Oceania. I sent a detailed, documented report to them with our issues. I basically got a PFO letter with "looking forward to seeing you on O again". Seriously?

 

I have always found HAL to be receptive to emails, etc. It might take a while for them to reply (as did O) but at least they have replied trying to address the problem / make up for it or fix it. But, that's just my experience.

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Does Alaska have a higher percentage of Moro outbreaks than other areas as someone said? I would think the cruise passengers would be more likely to infect alaska than Alaska infecting passengers. The summer months have more outdoor activities and therefore people aren't cooped up inside as much as the winter. This is making me question our cruise scheduled for next July. I figured this would be a safer time to travel than the winter. I don't know if I want to take a chance when I could lose thousands if dollars being quarantined to my room foe my only vacation next year. I have trip insurance, but that doesn't cover you if you get sick on your cruise and are quarantined, right?

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Could you provide a source for this statement? If an average of 60 people board every cruise already infected (1 to 5% of all cruisers) how is it that so few ships (relatively) have outbreaks?

what is the percentage of crew who are carrying the virus at any time? Are some people carriers who transmit the virus while remaining unaffected?

Even on 4 Carnival Cruises :eek: I've never met a single person who had experienced Norovirus on board; guess I need to expand my acquaintances.

 

The source is my colleagues at CDC. but they are not about to announce this to the public. Every cruise line would sue them.

When 60 people who have just contracted, or are in the middle of the virus, or who have recently recovered from it are wandering around the ship, trying to spread it to you, the staff are feverishly spraying, fogging, wiping just behind everyone, hoping to keep it under control.

That is why there are relatively few outbreaks on ships.

 

Crew are a special case.

Any crewmember who has the slightest symptoms of Norwalk Virus MUST report it and will be quarantined with no work (but paid) until the symptoms have cleared.

Any crewmember who has symptoms and does not report them is terminated immediately, must pay for his air ticket home, and will lose his visa to work on ships ever again. Food handling crew who experience Norwalk symptoms are quarantined longer than crew who do not handle food.

 

Many people are carriers who spread the virus but remain relatively unaffected.

 

Although CDC tells us that those who have had Norovirus are very contagious for about 48 - 72 hours after symptoms stop, many people do remain somewhat contagious for up to 4 weeks ! There is no way to measure or control this.

 

Anecdotal stories about people who you meet on a cruise are essentially worthless. If I meet you on a ship, and I am suffering from Norwalk, it is very likely that I will not be discussing this highly personal matter with you.

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....................................

 

Crew are a special case.

Any crewmember who has the slightest symptoms of Norwalk Virus MUST report it and will be quarantined with no work (but paid) until the symptoms have cleared.

Any crewmember who has symptoms and does not report them is terminated immediately, must pay for his air ticket home, and will lose his visa to work on ships ever again. Food handling crew who experience Norwalk symptoms are quarantined longer than crew who do not handle food.

 

...................................

 

No doubt about that! I've sat in in those disciplinary hearings with the captain and senior management

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Would coming off a cruise ship with an outbreak of Norovirus prevent you from embarking on another cruise ship of a different line on the same day.

 

 

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Does Alaska have a higher percentage of Moro outbreaks than other areas as someone said? I would think the cruise passengers would be more likely to infect alaska than Alaska infecting passengers. The summer months have more outdoor activities and therefore people aren't cooped up inside as much as the winter. This is making me question our cruise scheduled for next July. I figured this would be a safer time to travel than the winter. I don't know if I want to take a chance when I could lose thousands if dollars being quarantined to my room foe my only vacation next year. I have trip insurance, but that doesn't cover you if you get sick on your cruise and are quarantined, right?

 

 

 

I live in Alaska; don't worry. We actually had no news stories of noro outbreaks this past winter/spring, when I was reading of outbreaks in other regions of the country. The Med has had several ships with noro outbreaks this summer, too. Alaskans are typically very outdoorsy and like to get outside as much as possible in the winter for skiing and the summer for camping/fishing/hiking, so for someone to say Alaska is like a haven for noro is preposterous. Enjoy your cruise!

 

 

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Would coming off a cruise ship with an outbreak of Norovirus prevent you from embarking on another cruise ship of a different line on the same day.

 

 

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Probably will be fine if you aren't sick

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Would coming off a cruise ship with an outbreak of Norovirus prevent you from embarking on another cruise ship of a different line on the same day.

 

 

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How would the other cruise line even know you just came off another cruise line's ship?

 

Roz

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I live in Alaska; don't worry. We actually had no news stories of noro outbreaks this past winter/spring, when I was reading of outbreaks in other regions of the country. The Med has had several ships with noro outbreaks this summer, too. Alaskans are typically very outdoorsy and like to get outside as much as possible in the winter for skiing and the summer for camping/fishing/hiking, so for someone to say Alaska is like a haven for noro is preposterous. Enjoy your cruise!

 

 

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Can you provide a link detailing those ships with Niro outbreaks in the Med this summer?

 

 

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Can you provide a link detailing those ships with Niro outbreaks in the Med this summer?

 

 

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I was on the first noro outbreak cruise on the Celebrity Constellation in June. 2/3 of the way through the cruise, most buffet crew disappeared and were replaced by officers and staff from various office departments. They were fogging our hallway when I returned one day. And of course there were daily updates from the captain as well as a deep cleaning after disembarking. Per a B2B Pax, it continued 6 days into the next cruise. The HAL Westerdam had noro as well per Pax reports on here. Ships in Europe don't have to have noro outbreaks made public because they're sailing to/from a foreign port, so that's why these aren't on the CDC site. Our outbreak was so bad that Naples held us up for 2 hours before finally allowing Pax off the ship, and tour operators were told we were "the sick ship".

 

 

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