Jump to content

Very Bad HAL Maintenance.....or is it just me?


Hlitner
 Share

Recommended Posts

Let me start off by saying that I also do not take Hank's observations lightly, and while I cannot comment on HAL's maintenance policies or budgets directly, or to some of the observations, let me shed some possible mitigating factors into some of the problems.

 

Having worked on another cruise ship from about the same time period as the Rotterdam's building, our ship was built with plastic potable water piping, that used an electric resistance coil in the fittings to melt the fittings and pipe together, in sort of a plastic welding method, rather than threading or other means of joining pipe. At the time, this was cutting edge technology, and was vaunted as the end all and be all of shipboard water piping. However, ships of this building period (late 1990's) were among the first to receive this product, and there was no real long term data on how it performed in a shipboard environment. Leaks were present almost from the start, and repairs made as needed. Within about 10 years, the amounts of leaks and repairs were seriously impacting revenue due to cabins taken out of inventory for repair and compensations given to guests. It was decided to remove as much of the piping as possible, and upgrade to a newer plastic welded piping product. The ship would take one entire deck of cabins out of inventory, and the piping was removed and renewed over a week's cruise. Then the next deck was taken out of inventory, and so on. The cost of having the contractors onboard for months, and the loss of revenue from the cabins on that deck, and any compensation for moving booked passengers was considered less costly than taking the ship out of service completely for the 3-4 weeks it would have taken to do the job in a shipyard. Even then, there were areas that could not be accessed and replaced, predominately in the overhead of the main galley, without dismantling the entire galley to get to it.

 

"Forensics" on the removed pipe showed that there were two very distinct patterns of welding of the fittings, and research showed that there were two contractors involved in the initial installation, so we suspect that one firm was not doing the welding correctly. All this is to say, that "maintenance" may not be the problem with water pipes, and that the Rotterdam may be getting to the point where the miles of water piping around the ship (we estimated on our ship, a bit bigger than Rotterdam, that we renewed over 15 kilometers of piping) will need to be renewed wholesale, and that this may have been a growing problem that has now reached epic proportions, or it may have been a sort of "sudden" failure of the piping system. Either way, you don't go into a wholesale renewal of piping throughout the ship unless the cost/benefit ratio warrants it. Would you tear out all the piping in your house just because it is x amount of years old?

 

As for the windows, this is a particularly painful point for me. These windows, all tempered safety glass are special ordered, and then they must be installed by certified glazers to validate the warranty. The problem comes with the requirement that contractors on ships have massive insurance bonds, due to the historical danger of working on ships, and most glazing companies do not have this, so they must subcontract to a marine repair firm, who then adds their mark-up to the job. These windows are also pretty tricky to deal with for crew, as I've had an errant paint chipper shatter a number of bridge windows just from getting too close to the glass.

 

As I say, none of the above necessarily excuses not addressing problems in a timely fashion, but it does show that sometimes it is not a "maintenance" issue but rather a manufacturing defect or life span issue.

 

And while leaking plumbing and cracked and leaking windows are legitimate concerns for passengers, as this is the front of the house, know that the class societies that inspect the vessels annually check the maintenance records for the major systems and safety equipment onboard, and while the hotel may be aging gracelessly, the ship continues to be maintained. Hank alluded to this, and I know he knows the difference. I agree that a service industry should do its utmost to provide top service, and that minor inconveniences and poor appearances should be remedied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me start off by saying that I also do not take Hank's observations lightly, and while I cannot comment on HAL's maintenance policies or budgets directly, or to some of the observations, let me shed some possible mitigating factors into some of the problems.

 

Having worked on another cruise ship from about the same time period as the Rotterdam's building, our ship was built with plastic potable water piping, that used an electric resistance coil in the fittings to melt the fittings and pipe together, in sort of a plastic welding method, rather than threading or other means of joining pipe. At the time, this was cutting edge technology, and was vaunted as the end all and be all of shipboard water piping. However, ships of this building period (late 1990's) were among the first to receive this product, and there was no real long term data on how it performed in a shipboard environment. Leaks were present almost from the start, and repairs made as needed. Within about 10 years, the amounts of leaks and repairs were seriously impacting revenue due to cabins taken out of inventory for repair and compensations given to guests. It was decided to remove as much of the piping as possible, and upgrade to a newer plastic welded piping product. The ship would take one entire deck of cabins out of inventory, and the piping was removed and renewed over a week's cruise. Then the next deck was taken out of inventory, and so on. The cost of having the contractors onboard for months, and the loss of revenue from the cabins on that deck, and any compensation for moving booked passengers was considered less costly than taking the ship out of service completely for the 3-4 weeks it would have taken to do the job in a shipyard. Even then, there were areas that could not be accessed and replaced, predominately in the overhead of the main galley, without dismantling the entire galley to get to it.

 

"Forensics" on the removed pipe showed that there were two very distinct patterns of welding of the fittings, and research showed that there were two contractors involved in the initial installation, so we suspect that one firm was not doing the welding correctly. All this is to say, that "maintenance" may not be the problem with water pipes, and that the Rotterdam may be getting to the point where the miles of water piping around the ship (we estimated on our ship, a bit bigger than Rotterdam, that we renewed over 15 kilometers of piping) will need to be renewed wholesale, and that this may have been a growing problem that has now reached epic proportions, or it may have been a sort of "sudden" failure of the piping system. Either way, you don't go into a wholesale renewal of piping throughout the ship unless the cost/benefit ratio warrants it. Would you tear out all the piping in your house just because it is x amount of years old?

 

As for the windows, this is a particularly painful point for me. These windows, all tempered safety glass are special ordered, and then they must be installed by certified glazers to validate the warranty. The problem comes with the requirement that contractors on ships have massive insurance bonds, due to the historical danger of working on ships, and most glazing companies do not have this, so they must subcontract to a marine repair firm, who then adds their mark-up to the job. These windows are also pretty tricky to deal with for crew, as I've had an errant paint chipper shatter a number of bridge windows just from getting too close to the glass.

 

As I say, none of the above necessarily excuses not addressing problems in a timely fashion, but it does show that sometimes it is not a "maintenance" issue but rather a manufacturing defect or life span issue.

 

And while leaking plumbing and cracked and leaking windows are legitimate concerns for passengers, as this is the front of the house, know that the class societies that inspect the vessels annually check the maintenance records for the major systems and safety equipment onboard, and while the hotel may be aging gracelessly, the ship continues to be maintained. Hank alluded to this, and I know he knows the difference. I agree that a service industry should do its utmost to provide top service, and that minor inconveniences and poor appearances should be remedied.

 

 

That is all just fine and dandy but if you are a guest with mold allergies and spend a full week in bed because of the excessive mold you might have a different view of the problem. As a business person I can tell you unequivocally that the customer does not care about the nuts and bolts, they paid for a product and they expect to receive that product. The guests on the VOV paid dearly for that product and did not receive the product they paid for. This ship should never have been used in its current condition. The leaks were the elephant in the room but there were a host of other maintenance problems including ventilation and electrical.

 

Yes, CCL has a budget but so do I

Edited by Mary229
comment
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ships are like your house as they get older they need more TLC. I think one of the problems is that they do not take it out of service long enough to really get down & fix all the problems. The ship is not making money if it's sitting in dry dock. Take the time & do it right the first time which will pay off in the long run. I have also been on ships with flooded cabins, A/C not working, smell of sewage. Any or all these problems if they happen to you make for bad memories.

Allan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am afraid that you guys are being far too gracious. Now if HAL had advertised the ship as a leaky, moldy scow then the potential customer can make a decision. But to only find out after you are sailing away on a 38 day voyage is not optimal. It cost me a lot of time to make the money to pay them so they should take the time to insure that my experience is as advertised. Poor CCL not wanting to keep the ship in dry dock long enough to repair - boo hoo, I feel for them (tiny violins here). As I stated much earlier: if this is the state of the cruise industry then I will find another way to travel. No one would accept this from a hotel chain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am afraid that you guys are being far too gracious. Now if HAL had advertised the ship as a leaky, moldy scow then the potential customer can make a decision. But to only find out after you are sailing away on a 38 day voyage is not optimal. It cost me a lot of time to make the money to pay them so they should take the time to insure that my experience is as advertised. Poor CCL not wanting to keep the ship in dry dock long enough to repair - boo hoo, I feel for them (tiny violins here). As I stated much earlier: if this is the state of the cruise industry then I will find another way to travel. No one would accept this from a hotel chain.

 

Very well said.

These are not new problems. Because Mr, Hiltner is well respected some loyalists don't call him a liar but they feign surprise at what "just happened".

I would die a million deaths of embarrassment if I recommended this ship (or its aging sisters) to anyone.

 

This is not the state of the cruise industry. Vote with your feet and try other lines. We sail even more often than we used to and greatly enjoy our experiences.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for taking the time to educate us on the probable root cause of the problems. Very interesting Of course the bottom line is no one cares what the cause is if their cabin leaks - they just want it fixed. Really they want it to have never happened at all.

Let me start off by saying that I also do not take Hank's observations lightly, and while I cannot comment on HAL's maintenance policies or budgets directly, or to some of the observations, let me shed some possible mitigating factors into some of the problems.

 

Having worked on another cruise ship from about the same time period as the Rotterdam's building, our ship was built with plastic potable water piping, that used an electric resistance coil in the fittings to melt the fittings and pipe together, in sort of a plastic welding method, rather than threading or other means of joining pipe. At the time, this was cutting edge technology, and was vaunted as the end all and be all of shipboard water piping. However, ships of this building period (late 1990's) were among the first to receive this product, and there was no real long term data on how it performed in a shipboard environment. Leaks were present almost from the start, and repairs made as needed. Within about 10 years, the amounts of leaks and repairs were seriously impacting revenue due to cabins taken out of inventory for repair and compensations given to guests. It was decided to remove as much of the piping as possible, and upgrade to a newer plastic welded piping product. The ship would take one entire deck of cabins out of inventory, and the piping was removed and renewed over a week's cruise. Then the next deck was taken out of inventory, and so on. The cost of having the contractors onboard for months, and the loss of revenue from the cabins on that deck, and any compensation for moving booked passengers was considered less costly than taking the ship out of service completely for the 3-4 weeks it would have taken to do the job in a shipyard. Even then, there were areas that could not be accessed and replaced, predominately in the overhead of the main galley, without dismantling the entire galley to get to it.

 

"Forensics" on the removed pipe showed that there were two very distinct patterns of welding of the fittings, and research showed that there were two contractors involved in the initial installation, so we suspect that one firm was not doing the welding correctly. All this is to say, that "maintenance" may not be the problem with water pipes, and that the Rotterdam may be getting to the point where the miles of water piping around the ship (we estimated on our ship, a bit bigger than Rotterdam, that we renewed over 15 kilometers of piping) will need to be renewed wholesale, and that this may have been a growing problem that has now reached epic proportions, or it may have been a sort of "sudden" failure of the piping system. Either way, you don't go into a wholesale renewal of piping throughout the ship unless the cost/benefit ratio warrants it. Would you tear out all the piping in your house just because it is x amount of years old?

 

As for the windows, this is a particularly painful point for me. These windows, all tempered safety glass are special ordered, and then they must be installed by certified glazers to validate the warranty. The problem comes with the requirement that contractors on ships have massive insurance bonds, due to the historical danger of working on ships, and most glazing companies do not have this, so they must subcontract to a marine repair firm, who then adds their mark-up to the job. These windows are also pretty tricky to deal with for crew, as I've had an errant paint chipper shatter a number of bridge windows just from getting too close to the glass.

 

As I say, none of the above necessarily excuses not addressing problems in a timely fashion, but it does show that sometimes it is not a "maintenance" issue but rather a manufacturing defect or life span issue.

 

And while leaking plumbing and cracked and leaking windows are legitimate concerns for passengers, as this is the front of the house, know that the class societies that inspect the vessels annually check the maintenance records for the major systems and safety equipment onboard, and while the hotel may be aging gracelessly, the ship continues to be maintained. Hank alluded to this, and I know he knows the difference. I agree that a service industry should do its utmost to provide top service, and that minor inconveniences and poor appearances should be remedied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I too am just back from the Voyage of the Vikings, and I can confirm the description of all the leaks around the ship. The big leak in the Lido by the pasta station almost blocked the aisle. It was disconcerting that it kept recurring every time it rained. The Crow's Nest reeked of mildew. Half the windows had towels laid at the bottom to soak up leaks. The Beverage Manager said that this would be dealt with in the drydock. Particularly surprising was the water bubbling up through the planking on both sides of the Lido aft deck -- but better that it came up rather than down into the cabins underneath.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CHPURSERS's comments were right on.

 

Besides not wanting he possibility of plumbing issues or no air, i am extremely allergic to mould. The last place that I can sleep is in a room with mould. I would rather sleep on an open deck.

 

What this does is rule out HAL's older ships. We like HAL, it fits our demographic, but HAL always looses is it comes down to an older HAL ship and another cruise line.

 

I call it cheating the customer.

Edited by iancal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose I have just been fortunate in not experiencing major maintenance problems on HAL - and having those minor ones experienced promptly and competently addressed.

 

Newer ships - with perhaps better maintenance programs (say, on Royal Caribbean or NCL) might be preferable -- except for the factors those brands represent which cannot, to my satisfaction, be addressed

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the report, Hank. I have seen drip catching buckets on HAL so often that I thought the practice was industry wide. It always surprises me that a ship built to float on water can not keep rain water from leaking in. Personally, I find the buckets kind of amusing, it's like seeing a car bumper held on by duct tape. You have to shake your head when you see the same leak and the same bucket day after day after day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the report, Hank. I have seen drip catching buckets on HAL so often that I thought the practice was industry wide. It always surprises me that a ship built to float on water can not keep rain water from leaking in. Personally, I find the buckets kind of amusing, it's like seeing a car bumper held on by duct tape. You have to shake your head when you see the same leak and the same bucket day after day after day.

 

 

That and what about that rain water washing in bird droppings or any other microbial contamination from the roof. They harp on the customers to wash their hands but have no concern about dirty water dripping in an eating facility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reality check.....

 

You all want ships to "be new", but you DONT want to pay the fare's associated with new ships. Sure, other lines have new ships... But the only way they can fund these new builds is to either A) Make them so big they get economies of scale, or B) Charge a much higher price per cabin...

 

You all rave about HAL's "small ships", and reasonable prices compared to the premium lines... THIS is the downside to this!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reality check.....

 

You all want ships to "be new", but you DONT want to pay the fare's associated with new ships. Sure, other lines have new ships... But the only way they can fund these new builds is to either A) Make them so big they get economies of scale, or B) Charge a much higher price per cabin...

 

You all rave about HAL's "small ships", and reasonable prices compared to the premium lines... THIS is the downside to this!

 

The VOV is not a budget cruise by anyone's standard. No one signs up for unhealthy conditions regardless

Edited by Mary229
comment
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm finding this very upsetting as I'm booked on next year's Voyage of the Vikings on the Rotterdam. At one time it was my favorite ship, good memories sailing her on our first 2 European cruises.

 

The VOV is something I've dreamed about since first hearing about it and finally we can go. I can only hope the dry dock this fall helps!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have absolutely no issues in finding Princess, Celebrity, RCI , etc cruises that are price competitive with HAL.

 

We are not willing to pay a low price for a moldy rust bucket of ship. Nor or we willing to pay top dollar for it.

 

We are willing to pay for value. We simply do not want to be cheated into paying a competitive price for a poorly maintained ship. The ship does not have to be new....it has to be in good condition and well maintained. That means proper mtce. Not skipping on things to reduce maintenance cost to increase profit.

 

We never think twice about the physical condition of a Princess or Celebrity ship. This just is not the case when HAL is on our short list. And we certainly do not find that HAL, on balance, costs less than the other two. Often the opposite is true.

 

Who wants to start a cruise by wondering what the condition of the cabin or the ship is going to be? Are we going to get a cabin in good condition or should we order a fan prior to boarding? Should it not be a given that we expect what we paid for? Or are we not to rely on the glossy brochure, the internet images, or the 'excellence' claims. That is why we avoid HAL's older ships. Not because they are old, but for another, more obvious reason when one reads throught the reviews and the threads.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The VOV is not a budget cruise by anyone's standard.

 

I agree. It is a major bucket list cruise and priced accordingly. I hope you all write to HAL and at least receive a partial refund/ proportional future cruise credit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know what to make of all these comments; at least one mentioned that the Noordam was not in top condition and we will be on that in February. We've sailed on some quite old ships on other lines without issue. Have we been lucky or is HAL just refusing to do common maintenance?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I decided to do another post in this thread (which I started) to give Chengkp a big thank you for explaining some of the manufacturing issues. That being said, his comment about being front of the house issues should fall on deaf ears for those of us who cruise. Cruisers expect a quality front of the house product and should accept nothing less! HAL used to have a "Signature of Excellence" theme...and perhaps even they could no longer use that saying with a straight face. Had to smile at one post that mentioned the water leaking "up" from the aft deck. We did see this phenomenon but decided to limit our OP to only a few problems so as to not totally bore the reader.

 

Yesterday I did complete the normal HAL post cruise Comment Form and did emphasize the excellence of the crew as well as the abysmal condition of the vessel. We have no expectation that our comments will result in HAL cleaning up their act when it comes to maintaining their vessels. Unlike some HAL fans, we are "equal opportunity cruisers" and are not "loyal" to any corporation. . But HAL had best beware. The line is trying to attract new cruisers, but when somebody who has cruised on well maintained vessels steps aboard a HAL leaking bucket.....they will likely not return. And those folks will likely tell their friends who will tell their friends...etc. We saw quite a few cruisers (on the Rotterdam) taking pictures of the leaks, towels, buckets, etc. In the cruise/travel industry it can take a Herculean effort to overcome negative stereotypes. It almost seems like HAL is trying hard to ruin their excellent reputation.

 

Hank

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Having worked on another cruise ship from about the same time period as the Rotterdam's building, our ship was built with plastic potable water piping, that used an electric resistance coil in the fittings to melt the fittings and pipe together, in sort of a plastic welding method, rather than threading or other means of joining pipe. At the time, this was cutting edge technology, and was vaunted as the end all and be all of shipboard water piping. However, ships of this building period (late 1990's) were among the first to receive this product, and there was no real long term data on how it performed in a shipboard environment. Leaks were present almost from the start, and repairs made as needed. Within about 10 years, the amounts of leaks and repairs were seriously impacting revenue due to cabins taken out of inventory for repair and compensations given to guests. It was decided to remove as much of the piping as possible, and upgrade to a newer plastic welded piping product. The ship would take one entire deck of cabins out of inventory, and the piping was removed and renewed over a week's cruise. Then the next deck was taken out of inventory, and so on. The cost of having the contractors onboard for months, and the loss of revenue from the cabins on that deck, and any compensation for moving booked passengers was considered less costly than taking the ship out of service completely for the 3-4 weeks it would have taken to do the job in a shipyard. Even then, there were areas that could not be accessed and replaced, predominately in the overhead of the main galley, without dismantling the entire galley to get to it.

 

"Forensics" on the removed pipe showed that there were two very distinct patterns of welding of the fittings, and research showed that there were two contractors involved in the initial installation, so we suspect that one firm was not doing the welding correctly. All this is to say, that "maintenance" may not be the problem with water pipes, and that the Rotterdam may be getting to the point where the miles of water piping around the ship (we estimated on our ship, a bit bigger than Rotterdam, that we renewed over 15 kilometers of piping) will need to be renewed wholesale, and that this may have been a growing problem that has now reached epic proportions, or it may have been a sort of "sudden" failure of the piping system. Either way, you don't go into a wholesale renewal of piping throughout the ship unless the cost/benefit ratio warrants it. Would you tear out all the piping in your house just because it is x amount of years old?

 

Appreciate your professional knowlewdge and your willingness to share it.

 

I was wondering if any cruise ships use PEX piping with the mechanical expansion joints.

 

How much of the domestic water piping done in plastic? I know I have seen ceilings open on HAL ship nad the piping was defintely stainless steel (4").

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know what to make of all these comments; at least one mentioned that the Noordam was not in top condition and we will be on that in February. We've sailed on some quite old ships on other lines without issue. Have we been lucky or is HAL just refusing to do common maintenance?

 

I don't know what to say. Last year I was on the Zaandam for a month and it was in beautiful condition and it is as old as the Rotterdam. I won't be sailing HAL again unless the itinerary is exceptional and I read current reviews very carefully. I did read the reviews for Rotterdam but must have been blinded to bad reviews as I read nothing in line with my experience. I did write a review and it should be public soon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We sailed the Rotterdam in May this year for 14 day Norway/North Cape cruise.

The deck of our verandah had rust 'droppings' each morning from the overhang. The paintwork around the veranda was in a pretty dire condition. If we looked over the balcony edge and downwards, then the amount of rust/corrosion visible gave some concern.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take the time to read over the forums concerning other cruise lines. They all have or had issues at one time or another with maintenance. Two days ago a Princess ship had propulsion problems and was dead in the water. Last week a Princess ship had a water line burst putting two inches of water in to some passengers cabins. Even Disney Magic, also from Fincantieri only nine ships and one year younger later than the Rotterdam, has had problems with water leaking from ceilings. And those Disney passengers pay more per cruise than on HAL.

 

Scheduling dry dock time is more for maintenance of portions of the ship that are not accessible. Interior changes could be accomplished tied to a pier at less cost but are routinely done while in dry dock. I am more concerned about the integrity of the hull and exterior propulsion components than some interior components that cause inconvenience. Perhaps budget cutting has reached bottom. Not that I would want problems like some of those described when I sail, but I let my money do my talking. If some really feel that way about HAL, please for your sake don't sail on HAL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rotterdam is scheduled for dry dock at the end of October. On the VoV the captain said that he had heard that the Crow's Nest and the Dining Room would have major work, but didn't know what else. Hopefully the leaks, and many of the carpets. Hopefully the first cruisers in November will report what all has been done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

  • Forum Jump
    • Categories
      • Welcome to Cruise Critic
      • New Cruisers
      • Cruise Lines “A – O”
      • Cruise Lines “P – Z”
      • River Cruising
      • ROLL CALLS
      • Digital Photography & Cruise Technology
      • Special Interest Cruising
      • Cruise Discussion Topics
      • UK Cruising
      • Australia & New Zealand Cruisers
      • Canadian Cruisers
      • North American Homeports
      • Ports of Call
      • Cruise Conversations
×
×
  • Create New...