Holland West Coast (including Noordam) plagued with Norovirus

We had a similar experience on HAL. This past June we sailed on the K and our muster station was the specialty restaurant Sel de Mer. We were also instructed to sit at tables that were fully set with glasses, plates and cutlery. I didn't wait around to see whether the tables were reset for the evening's service, but I suspect that it wasn't.

we have a relative out of state who works with large company that contracts maintenance services that do various larger maintenance when ships are in port......his company serves 3 different ports in US and works with multiple cruise lines......he has provided and supervised these services for close to 17 years......he has mentioned to us several times that cruise lines and individual ships do not change their ac/heat air filters regularly, do not steam carpet until badly stained and as noted in prior post they do not address routine mold issues that are hidden out of view........while all that contributes to a ripe environment of potential sickness we do have to remember that people "transmit" the illness and expose others to whatever is being transmitted whether it is gastro or respiratory related. MY POINT: we have to be proactive as we can and go knowing there are various risks. Take precaution with public space and take related medications that you might need. We have been on less than 10 cruises with 3 different cruise lines and one of us has typically come back with a cold but I know that can originate from ship or airplane or anywhere. Go prepared and enjoy your trip!!

Travel 101. Sick passengers need to isolate themselves, most recover in a day or two. They are infectious before symptoms appear which is why the illness spreads.

A number of people have stated that you can spread the virus even before symptoms appear.

This is what the CDC's "Norovirus Illness: Key Facts":

• You are contagious from the moment you begin feeling sick and for the first few days after you recover.

https://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/downloads/keyfacts.pdf

Next time you sail on HAL, take the side cover off your bathtub. You will discover a 15 year growth of black mold hidden there.

I tried for years to get permission to clean those areas, but HAL management was too cheap to do it.

Then speak to an engineer about the air handling system, and try to get him to admit how often they change the filters. The correct answer is "never". Once again, HAL is too cheap to do the right thing.

On a recent cruise, we saw all the vent covers in our hallway removed and the stewards were vacuuming. Not a full deep clean, perhaps, but that had to get SOME dust out of there. And this was routine, no Noro on that cruise.

I give HAL credit for being proactive. Twice we've been on cruises where there have been a number of people with "GI symptoms." Both times, the Captain made the announcement that measures were being taken to reduce transmission and he updated numbers every day. (No matter what the circumstance, HAL Captains use the phrase "abundance of caution.") Any communal objects like salt and pepper were taken away. Servers were at the drinks station in the Lido. Nothing was self serve. In both cases, it didn't seem like a big outbreak. Not a lot of "do not disturb" signs in evidence, the ship seemed to have as many people around as usual. Certainly nothing like the massive outbreak a friend experienced on a mega ship a few years ago, where the staff did far less to contain it. She said the ship was a ghost town, as people were staying in their cabins, suffering.

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Then speak to an engineer about the air handling system, and try to get him to admit how often they change the filters. The correct answer is "never". Once again, HAL is too cheap to do the right thing.

Interesting points! On AMDM, during May, the Asst Facility Manager took two wipers from the engine room and for the duration of a month, they replaced all air conditioning filters in all guest cabins.

Interesting points! On AMDM, during May, the Asst Facility Manager took two wipers from the engine room and for the duration of a month, they replaced all air conditioning filters in all guest cabins.

I remember them coming into our cabin to replace, He bonked his head on the access panel in the dressing room and then apologized to us. I said "you didn't hit my head- are you OK?" He was fine and we all got a good laugh.

CDC rules require cruise ships to UN-set restaurant tables that are unused for more than 6 hours in order to prevent cross-contamination during indoor muster drills.

 

HAL takes short cuts by setting up the tables just before the muster drill to avoid breaking the rules. But this exposes passengers to unnecessary risks of contaminating the table settings. Doing it properly and safely would require more staff. HAL will not increase staffing for any reason - including your health.

We were on K'dam in April and our muster station was in MDR. Although the tables were set for early dinner, the settings were covered with a table cloth.

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Too many people like to use personal anecdotal stories to explain how the world works. It is not that simple.

 

A surprisingly high percentage of people contract Norovirus and never know it. Their symptoms are so mild that they think they have a cold or a hangover. But they are still contagious and spreading the virus to everyone else.

Many Asians with type A or B blood can be carriers of the virus without ever experiencing any symptoms at all. They are also spreading the virus to those who are not immune.

This is I believe the most salient comment that's been made on this subject. Extrapolating my anecdotal experience and then making assertions about what I "should" have experienced is of course wrong. I'm not a butterfly - I've been traveling around the world since 1984, in places that were hardly known for their sanitation practices - my first overseas trip to Mainland China. I've had bouts of gastro over the years and would guess that this might result in some immunity.

In my view the way this has been handled by Holland has been the issue. Like any hotel that experiences high occupancy continually, keeping high standards is a continual process. Given the CDC reporting of incidents it would seem to be the case that HAL is having a much more difficult time with this challenge. A management issue.

And implementation of roadblocks in the reporting process makes the evaluation of the real situation difficult.

In our limited experience with cruising I've noticed that these businesses make it very difficult to contact and discuss complaints with management. I've routinely been told by low-level employees "my supervisor is unavailable" and in one case on this cruise "the medical officer doesn't talk with the passengers". Even the communication process with HAL via email or other electronic method has been artificially limited. This is clearly by design.

If I have a problem with an airline flight, I've always been confident that I can report it to the right person and get an appropriate answer. Once one of the big legacy airlines had their chief pilot call me and discuss an issue I had raised. The airlines are routinely given the stick in the media but they move much larger numbers of customers than the cruise lines and I've found them very responsive. The reason for this is simple - if you can't trust your airline with something simple, how can you trust them with a maintenance, security, or safety issue?

"We'll book your cruise and take your money, but if something goes wrong, you're on your own." Is this the management philosophy of ALL the mainstream cruise companies?

The whole event has caused us to look more closely at any continued use of HAL and/or the other Carnival owned companies. We enjoy the cruising experience. And we're only going to give our money to people we can trust.

This is I believe the most salient comment that's been made on this subject. Extrapolating my anecdotal experience and then making assertions about what I "should" have experienced is of course wrong. I'm not a butterfly - I've been traveling around the world since 1984, in places that were hardly known for their sanitation practices - my first overseas trip to Mainland China. I've had bouts of gastro over the years and would guess that this might result in some immunity.

 

In my view the way this has been handled by Holland has been the issue. Like any hotel that experiences high occupancy continually, keeping high standards is a continual process. Given the CDC reporting of incidents it would seem to be the case that HAL is having a much more difficult time with this challenge. A management issue.

 

And implementation of roadblocks in the reporting process makes the evaluation of the real situation difficult.

 

In our limited experience with cruising I've noticed that these businesses make it very difficult to contact and discuss complaints with management. I've routinely been told by low-level employees "my supervisor is unavailable" and in one case on this cruise "the medical officer doesn't talk with the passengers". Even the communication process with HAL via email or other electronic method has been artificially limited. This is clearly by design.

 

If I have a problem with an airline flight, I've always been confident that I can report it to the right person and get an appropriate answer. Once one of the big legacy airlines had their chief pilot call me and discuss an issue I had raised. The airlines are routinely given the stick in the media but they move much larger numbers of customers than the cruise lines and I've found them very responsive. The reason for this is simple - if you can't trust your airline with something simple, how can you trust them with a maintenance, security, or safety issue?

 

"We'll book your cruise and take your money, but if something goes wrong, you're on your own." Is this the management philosophy of ALL the mainstream cruise companies?

 

The whole event has caused us to look more closely at any continued use of HAL and/or the other Carnival owned companies. We enjoy the cruising experience. And we're only going to give our money to people we can trust.

Then don't sail Oceania. I sent a detailed, documented report to them with our issues. I basically got a PFO letter with "looking forward to seeing you on O again". Seriously?

I have always found HAL to be receptive to emails, etc. It might take a while for them to reply (as did O) but at least they have replied trying to address the problem / make up for it or fix it. But, that's just my experience.

Does Alaska have a higher percentage of Moro outbreaks than other areas as someone said? I would think the cruise passengers would be more likely to infect alaska than Alaska infecting passengers. The summer months have more outdoor activities and therefore people aren't cooped up inside as much as the winter. This is making me question our cruise scheduled for next July. I figured this would be a safer time to travel than the winter. I don't know if I want to take a chance when I could lose thousands if dollars being quarantined to my room foe my only vacation next year. I have trip insurance, but that doesn't cover you if you get sick on your cruise and are quarantined, right?

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Crew are a special case.

Any crewmember who has the slightest symptoms of Norwalk Virus MUST report it and will be quarantined with no work (but paid) until the symptoms have cleared.

Any crewmember who has symptoms and does not report them is terminated immediately, must pay for his air ticket home, and will lose his visa to work on ships ever again. Food handling crew who experience Norwalk symptoms are quarantined longer than crew who do not handle food.

 

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No doubt about that! I've sat in in those disciplinary hearings with the captain and senior management

Would coming off a cruise ship with an outbreak of Norovirus prevent you from embarking on another cruise ship of a different line on the same day.

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Does Alaska have a higher percentage of Moro outbreaks than other areas as someone said? I would think the cruise passengers would be more likely to infect alaska than Alaska infecting passengers. The summer months have more outdoor activities and therefore people aren't cooped up inside as much as the winter. This is making me question our cruise scheduled for next July. I figured this would be a safer time to travel than the winter. I don't know if I want to take a chance when I could lose thousands if dollars being quarantined to my room foe my only vacation next year. I have trip insurance, but that doesn't cover you if you get sick on your cruise and are quarantined, right?

I live in Alaska; don't worry. We actually had no news stories of noro outbreaks this past winter/spring, when I was reading of outbreaks in other regions of the country. The Med has had several ships with noro outbreaks this summer, too. Alaskans are typically very outdoorsy and like to get outside as much as possible in the winter for skiing and the summer for camping/fishing/hiking, so for someone to say Alaska is like a haven for noro is preposterous. Enjoy your cruise!

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Would coming off a cruise ship with an outbreak of Norovirus prevent you from embarking on another cruise ship of a different line on the same day.

 

 

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Probably will be fine if you aren't sick

Would coming off a cruise ship with an outbreak of Norovirus prevent you from embarking on another cruise ship of a different line on the same day.

 

 

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How would the other cruise line even know you just came off another cruise line's ship?

Roz

I live in Alaska; don't worry. We actually had no news stories of noro outbreaks this past winter/spring, when I was reading of outbreaks in other regions of the country. The Med has had several ships with noro outbreaks this summer, too. Alaskans are typically very outdoorsy and like to get outside as much as possible in the winter for skiing and the summer for camping/fishing/hiking, so for someone to say Alaska is like a haven for noro is preposterous. Enjoy your cruise!

 

 

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Can you provide a link detailing those ships with Niro outbreaks in the Med this summer?

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Can you provide a link detailing those ships with Niro outbreaks in the Med this summer?

 

 

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I was on the first noro outbreak cruise on the Celebrity Constellation in June. 2/3 of the way through the cruise, most buffet crew disappeared and were replaced by officers and staff from various office departments. They were fogging our hallway when I returned one day. And of course there were daily updates from the captain as well as a deep cleaning after disembarking. Per a B2B Pax, it continued 6 days into the next cruise. The HAL Westerdam had noro as well per Pax reports on here. Ships in Europe don't have to have noro outbreaks made public because they're sailing to/from a foreign port, so that's why these aren't on the CDC site. Our outbreak was so bad that Naples held us up for 2 hours before finally allowing Pax off the ship, and tour operators were told we were "the sick ship".

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How would the other cruise line even know you just came off another cruise line's ship?

 

 

 

Roz

I thought you may have to sign a declaration at the port that you have not been unwell or have any exposure to in the last 48 hours. We will be getting off the Nieuw Amsterdam from Alaska on the 23 Sept and then boarding the Princess Star later that day in Vancouver for Hawaii.

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Then don't sail Oceania. I sent a detailed, documented report to them with our issues. I basically got a PFO letter with "looking forward to seeing you on O again". Seriously?

 

I have always found HAL to be receptive to emails, etc. It might take a while for them to reply (as did O) but at least they have replied trying to address the problem / make up for it or fix it. But, that's just my experience.

For us after our March 2016 "noro" cruise on the Riviera, Oceania, after sending us the initial "PFO letter" in response to our documented concerns, had a change of heart and sent us a certificate for 25% off our next Caribbean cruise on the Riviera if we booked it by the end of 2016.

I'm thinking since the ship actually went into full "code red" lock down mode for 12 of the 14 days, they figured they'd better do something to make the passengers of our ill-fated cruise happy where 10% of the passengers came down with noro and were quarantined in their cabins for up to 4 days.

A more interesting question would be how often are the air filters replaced vs. the recommended interval for replacement.

If they are replace on sched great. If they are not replaced until well past their best before date in order to reduce mtce cost that would be an entirely different issue.

We are currently on the Noordam northbound from Vancouver, ending at Sitka (Anchorage) tomorrow, August 5.

This will be the third cruise in a row that the Noordam has had a huge Norovirus outbreak. The medical officer on this cruise refuses to confirm how many cases are on this current cruise.

Prior to the start of our cruise in Vancouver, we were sent an email by Holland telling us that our check-in would be delayed while they “super disinfected” the ship. This obviously didn’t work very well.

When we were checking in at Vancouver, the check-in clerk (a part-time, non-Holland employee) mentioned that the boarding was delayed due to “a couple cases of illness on the previous cruise”. I asked her who told her to say this, and she said they were briefed that day by someone from Holland.

The previous cruise has 142 reported cases! With the real number likely to be higher.

I came down with the illness overnight after leaving Skagway. I went down to medical to report my illness, and Holland wanted $95 for me to see the doctor. As there is no medication to treat Norovirus, I demurred from seeing the doctor. They told me that the only reports they take are after seeing the doctor. This is borderline fraud.

The CDC will at some point have a report about the number of cases on this cruise. But there’s clearly something systemic currently wrong on this ship. We’re previous cruisers on HAL in Europe, and we were surprised at the much different demographic on this cruise. The Lido Deck is generally jammed with cruisers while the dining rooms have been relatively empty. And there are lots of kids - and with the way children are let to run wild these days, it perhaps is part of the problem.

I’ve also found the last CDC inspection of this ship in April 2017, with a low score and NO remediation plan submitted by Holland.

I’ll have more to say after the cruise ends.

Are you kidding me??? I noticed the kids virtually ALWAYS use the hand santizers and get served while the adults, in my observations particularly senior men skipped the sanitizers. "Grandma" who we were travelling with noted the same thing. :confused:

Point two, "different demographic" as in families compared to couples?? The people that HAL is marketing too? They have a lot of info floating out there about how family friendly and how fabulous the ships are for kids. Get the brochure and you see a family and how awesome Club HAL is. Family excursions.

The Norovirus is an issue that does need to be dealt with for the safety of ALL travellers.

Look at the CDC report. Noordam had 2 weeks, Volendam had 2 weeks, and Nieuw Amsterdam had one week. All 3 sail from Vancouver which makes me think it started in Vancouver. No reportable outbreaks on the Seattle ships.

We have been on cruises that had GI issues. It only takes a few people that don't wash or self quarantine properly to spread it all over the ship. We felt so bad for the crew- they all worked around the clock cleaning. We also had an outside crew come onboard and disenfect the entire ship. All in transit passengers were given a day tour with lunch to make up for having to stay ashore until 2 pm. There was a definite disenfectant smell when we re-boarded. We had regular announcements with updates and reminders about washing and avoid getting hands near our mouth, face.nose.

The ship does not infect people-people do it.

we have a relative out of state who works with large company that contracts maintenance services that do various larger maintenance when ships are in port......his company serves 3 different ports in US and works with multiple cruise lines......he has provided and supervised these services for close to 17 years......he has mentioned to us several times that cruise lines and individual ships do not change their ac/heat air filters regularly, do not steam carpet until badly stained and as noted in prior post they do not address routine mold issues that are hidden out of view........while all that contributes to a ripe environment of potential sickness we do have to remember that people "transmit" the illness and expose others to whatever is being transmitted whether it is gastro or respiratory related. MY POINT: we have to be proactive as we can and go knowing there are various risks. Take precaution with public space and take related medications that you might need. We have been on less than 10 cruises with 3 different cruise lines and one of us has typically come back with a cold but I know that can originate from ship or airplane or anywhere. Go prepared and enjoy your trip!!

We were on the Amsterdam for a 56 day segment of the world cruise. On the third week of the cruise a a number of cruisers came down with a respiratory infection. This infection stayed onboard the ship for the entire cruise. More and more people got sick including my husband and I. I think more than half the ship was sick. During a Q&A the chief engineer admitted he felt that he needed to change the 1200 ac/heating air filters and needed to get approval from Seattle. There was no increase in cleaning noted. I ended up so sick,I didn't enjoy the cruise. It took 3 courses of antibiotics, 2 courses of prednisone and three visits to doctors once I got home. HAL is doing cost cutting like shutting of heat and air in public places after midnight and postponing things like changing air filters.

We were on the Amsterdam for a 56 day segment of the world cruise. On the third week of the cruise a a number of cruisers came down with a respiratory infection. This infection stayed onboard the ship for the entire cruise. More and more people got sick including my husband and I. I think more than half the ship was sick. During a Q&A the chief engineer admitted he felt that he needed to change the 1200 ac/heating air filters and needed to get approval from Seattle. There was no increase in cleaning noted. I ended up so sick,I didn't enjoy the cruise. It took 3 courses of antibiotics, 2 courses of prednisone and three visits to doctors once I got home. HAL is doing cost cutting like shutting of heat and air in public places after midnight and postponing things like changing air filters.

I won't comment on whether or not HAL is changing the air filters or not, as I'm not on their ships, but I can't believe that this is a serious "cost cutting" measure, as I know that at retail prices (and HAL doesn't pay retail for these kinds of things), you can buy the filter media for all 1200 cabins for less than $1000. Not sure why this would require corporate approval. As to the familiar claim that the A/C is shut off at night, there is no cost savings to continually have to reheat or recool a large space like the ship for short periods like a few hours each night. It actually takes more energy to reheat or recool than to maintain a constant temperature. The only true savings would be to raise/lower the setpoint a couple degrees permanently, so the system works less.