Passports, get them ordered now

Well, you wouldn't see that thread because it would be at least a year before someone isn't able to fly. You still haven't explained why you think it's a good idea to require passports on a closed loop cruise.

Actually I have explained it but have no problem doing so again. Passports are more difficult to counterfeit than birth certificates and/or drivers' licenses. Also (and I didn't mention this previously), if someone used false identification to get onto a closed loop cruise in order to pick something up in Mexico, the Caribbean or ???, they could quite easily bring it back into the U.S. (assuming such items were plastic-based and not easily detectable by x-ray). I think that you know where I'm going with this.

Kindly advise how you know that it would take a year to implement a new passport requirement for closed loop cruises? IMO, with the current strained relationship with Mexico, this restriction could be put on in a moment's notice. I could be wrong which is why I'm asking the question.

While I'm enjoying this debate, my mind is starting to think of ways people may think of to bring explosives into the U.S. Not something that I want to think about. :o

Actually I have explained it but have no problem doing so again. Passports are more difficult to counterfeit than birth certificates and/or drivers' licenses. Also (and I didn't mention this previously), if someone used false identification to get onto a closed loop cruise in order to pick something up in Mexico, the Caribbean or ???, they could quite easily bring it back into the U.S. (assuming such items were plastic-based and not easily detectable by x-ray). I think that you know where I'm going with this.

I don't think anyone is denying DL's are easier to counterfeit. But what benefit do you have by requiring passports on closed loop cruises? You think someone is going to fake a DL and BC to take a 7 day cruise to the Caribbean?

Kindly advise how you know that it would take a year to implement a new passport requirement for closed loop cruises? IMO, with the current strained relationship with Mexico, this restriction could be put on in a moment's notice. I could be wrong which is why I'm asking the question.

I mentioned a year, because in January 2018 is when residents of states that don't comply with the Real ID would need passports to fly.

While I'm enjoying this debate, my mind is starting to think of ways people may think of to bring explosives into the U.S. Not something that I want to think about. :o

Seems a lot easier to get explosives IN the US. Why bring them in from other countries?

Please don't tell me you're actually suggesting people should be required to carry ID papers with them at all times.

Oh my goodness no! The opposite! But the news story was chilling that a US citizen was asked for ID in the circumstances described.

I am a Canadian. I always have a passport. If I were an American without a passport I would get one. Things that seemed unbelievable a week ago are happening daily. Our hearts go out to our American friends

How would requiring a passport prevent that issue though?

I don't think anyone is denying DL's are easier to counterfeit. But what benefit do you have by requiring passports on closed loop cruises? You think someone is going to fake a DL and BC to take a 7 day cruise to the Caribbean?

 

Granted I have a passport, but hypothetically, let's say I didn't, and I had a cruise leaving in two weeks. Our government in it's infinite wisdom and operating with haste (which we know neither of those two happens much less at the same time) says "Everyone must have a passport for all cruises starting in 2 weeks." A) I think the cruise lines would fight that requirement in court because they know plenty of cruisers don't have a PP. B) I would be fighting myself (I don't know if it would go to court from me). I don't think it could happen "at a moments notice".

 

I mentioned a year, because in January 2018 is when residents of states that don't comply with the Real ID would need passports to fly.

 

 

Seems a lot easier to get explosives IN the US. Why bring them in from other countries?

Okay - I agree with some of what you say but not necessarily everything. I agree that there would need to be some notice before the government stopped closed loop cruises.

Yes - I do believe that people would use counterfeit DL's and birth certificates to go on a closed loop cruise if it enabled them to bring the makings for a bomb or some other illegal item into the U.S. Hate to answer a question with a question but aren't there explosives available outside of the U.S. that are not available in the U.S.?

The question about how much safer passports are keeps running through my mind. I know little about what goes on in terms of getting a passport (even though I've had several over the years). I do recall that they were made in Thailand - not the U.S. (at least that was a case a few years ago). I believe that they are more traceable when going through passport control (actually, I have no idea how anyone could verify a "certified" birth certificate on short notice). They do track which countries you have been in so they would see if you have made trips to the Middle East, etc.

In terms of cruise lines getting upset if closed loop cruises were suddenly stopped, it actually would only affect a few cruise lines (large ones but only a few). Many cruise lines do not even offer closed loop cruises. In fact, I learned about them on CC.

Perhaps there is a half-way measure that could be put into place until passports could be issued? Maybe a copy of your income taxes from last year (you could black out the financial data but show the name and address on the form), a copy of a utility bill that matches the name/address on your DL? Additionally, you could save a copy of your Passport Application (which may not have been filed but at least it shows some kind of intent).

I'm glad that the subject of 2018 has been brought up since I do live in a state that will require passports to board an airplane..... another thing to remember to do before your vacation:confused:

Please don't tell me you're actually suggesting people should be required to carry ID papers with them at all times.

 

 

Well, you wouldn't see that thread because it would be at least a year before someone isn't able to fly.....

Maybe not. The recent ban on people entering from certain countries went into effect immediately, causing confusion and chaos all over the world. What promise that the same speed of action wouldn't happen with passports?

Interesting side note about that ban on Muslims from certain countries - Trump has no business dealings in any of those seven countries. However, for some countries that have produced actual known terrorists, such as the country that 15 of the 9/11 hijackers were from, no ban was included. Is it coincidence that Trump has business interests with those not included in the ban but has no business interests with those that are?

I did not start this thread and don't believe that everyone in the U.S. has to have a passport. However, For those people that are planning a cruise outside of the U.S., I wouldn't wait until the government forced me to get one as the wait times would be horrendous. I feel that cruisers need to be proactive so that we don't see a thread on CC 6 months now posting about how they missed their cruise because their passport did not arrive on time.

 

Sparks1093: Yes - Washington state does issue Enhanced Drivers' Licenses -- just never heard them referred to by their initials. When I referred to background checks, when you apply for NEXUS/Global Entry, the background check goes back a long way. I know of people that have been declined due to misdemeanor in the 50's. People with DUI's are definitely declined. Although Canada is very welcoming to foreign visitors, if these visitors want "quick entry" into the country, they want to make sure that their backgrounds are clean. Out of curiosity - are you able to go in the NEXUS line with your Enhanced Drivers License when entering Canada?

There is only one lane going into Canada near where I live but no, if they did have a Nexus lane I do not think that I would not be eligible to use it. That's the thing, issuing a passport doesn't involve a background check, it just verifies a person's citizenship (although some checks are done because some people cannot have a passport and that information has to be available somewhere). It doesn't mean the person doesn't have a record or is on any type of no travel list. It just means that they have provided proof that the holder is a citizen of the US. TSA Pre-check, Global Entry, and Nexus are all programs where the traveler is able to provide their personal information and a background check is run on them to ensure that they are a "trusted traveler" which reduces their wait time when entering.

Maybe not. The recent ban on people entering from certain countries went into effect immediately, causing confusion and chaos all over the world. What promise that the same speed of action wouldn't happen with passports?

 

Interesting side note about that ban on Muslims from certain countries - Trump has no business dealings in any of those seven countries. However, for some countries that have produced actual known terrorists, such as the country that 15 of the 9/11 hijackers were from, no ban was included. Is it coincidence that Trump has business interests with those not included in the ban but has no business interests with those that are?

There is a big difference between how our government can treat potential visitors to the country and how it must treat US citizens. I believe the last time changes were made it took something like 2 or 3 years for DHS to promulgate the final regulations and for them to take effect.

Okay - I agree with some of what you say but not necessarily everything. I agree that there would need to be some notice before the government stopped closed loop cruises.

 

Yes - I do believe that people would use counterfeit DL's and birth certificates to go on a closed loop cruise if it enabled them to bring the makings for a bomb or some other illegal item into the U.S. Hate to answer a question with a question but aren't there explosives available outside of the U.S. that are not available in the U.S.?

 

The question about how much safer passports are keeps running through my mind. I know little about what goes on in terms of getting a passport (even though I've had several over the years). I do recall that they were made in Thailand - not the U.S. (at least that was a case a few years ago). I believe that they are more traceable when going through passport control (actually, I have no idea how anyone could verify a "certified" birth certificate on short notice). They do track which countries you have been in so they would see if you have made trips to the Middle East, etc.

 

In terms of cruise lines getting upset if closed loop cruises were suddenly stopped, it actually would only affect a few cruise lines (large ones but only a few). Many cruise lines do not even offer closed loop cruises. In fact, I learned about them on CC.

 

Perhaps there is a half-way measure that could be put into place until passports could be issued? Maybe a copy of your income taxes from last year (you could black out the financial data but show the name and address on the form), a copy of a utility bill that matches the name/address on your DL? Additionally, you could save a copy of your Passport Application (which may not have been filed but at least it shows some kind of intent).

 

I'm glad that the subject of 2018 has been brought up since I do live in a state that will require passports to board an airplane..... another thing to remember to do before your vacation:confused:

If someone presented a phony drivers license to board a closed loop cruise what do you suppose would happen when the number on the license was checked against the DMV records? They would show no record of that license being issued. CBP would then have some serious questions for that traveler upon the cruise's return. The Drivers license/birth certificate option is only available to US citizens and I am seriously confused why you think anyone would go to the kind of expense and trouble it would be to have phony documents made up in order to leave the US just to turn around and come back a few days later. If someone wants to bring something illegal back from a closed loop cruise they can do that by using authentic documents and them having a passport would not keep them from bringing something back.

There is a big difference between how our government can treat potential visitors to the country and how it must treat US citizens. I believe the last time changes were made it took something like 2 or 3 years for DHS to promulgate the final regulations and for them to take effect.

You seem to be forgetting that the current administration cares little about how things were done in the past, and cares only about getting their agenda in place as quickly as possible with little to no discussion or vetting. How things were done until now may not have much influence on how things get done from this day forward. :rolleyes:

My passport expires in September, but I plan on getting my photo taken at Costco tomorrow and applying online tomorrow. DH and I have our KTN's, which speeded our return home from Niagara Falls Canada after a trip to see the winter lights made from 1/19 to 1/21.

One never knows what might occur in the near future. A concern I have is that countries we hope to visit may impose obstacles to our entry as is proposed for foreigners coming to the U.S.e.g that cell contacts and internet explorations will need to be disclosed as a condition for admittance.

You seem to be forgetting that the current administration cares little about how things were done in the past, and cares only about getting their agenda in place as quickly as possible with little to no discussion or vetting. How things were done until now may not have much influence on how things get done from this day forward. :rolleyes:

This is true but as I've said, if I did not already have a passport I would not be letting current events panic me into getting one until I needed it. Having said that, the President is concerned with external threats (at the moment at least), not internal ones.

If someone presented a phony drivers license to board a closed loop cruise what do you suppose would happen when the number on the license was checked against the DMV records? They would show no record of that license being issued. CBP would then have some serious questions for that traveler upon the cruise's return. The Drivers license/birth certificate option is only available to US citizens and I am seriously confused why you think anyone would go to the kind of expense and trouble it would be to have phony documents made up in order to leave the US just to turn around and come back a few days later. If someone wants to bring something illegal back from a closed loop cruise they can do that by using authentic documents and them having a passport would not keep them from bringing something back.

I probably should have disclosed that my background is in Human Resources where proof of citizenship has been required for as long as I can remember. We were taught about people using social security numbers of deceased American citizens, etc. We also learned to look at the "type style" of your SS card, drivers' license, etc. If they were the same, they were likely forged. It generally takes years for people with forged documents to be caught. My mother-in-law was deceased for 10 years before the State of California stopped sending Handicapped Plaques to us (which we did not use). And, at least in California, it is not expensive to have forged documents prepared.

If someone presented a phony drivers license to board a closed loop cruise what do you suppose would happen when the number on the license was checked against the DMV records? They would show no record of that license being issued. CBP would then have some serious questions for that traveler upon the cruise's return. The Drivers license/birth certificate option is only available to US citizens and I am seriously confused why you think anyone would go to the kind of expense and trouble it would be to have phony documents made up in order to leave the US just to turn around and come back a few days later. If someone wants to bring something illegal back from a closed loop cruise they can do that by using authentic documents and them having a passport would not keep them from bringing something back.

I probably should have disclosed that my background is in Human Resources where proof of citizenship has been required for as long as I can remember. We were taught about people using social security numbers of deceased American citizens, etc. We also learned to look at the "type font" on your SS card, drivers' license, etc. If they were the same, they were likely forged (you would be surprised at how many I caught). It generally takes years for people with forged documents to be caught. My mother-in-law was deceased for 10 years before the State of California stopped sending Handicapped Plaques to us (which we did not use). And, at least in California, it is not expensive to have forged documents prepared.

So, to answer your question about what would happen when someone with a "forged" drivers' license presented it when they wanted to board the ship, if they are assuming the identity of someone that is deceased, nothing would happen. They would be free to board the ship.

Keep in mind that illegal aliens can not apply for "legal documents". And, since most cruise lines do not have "closed loop" itineraries, those that do can be a target.

As I'm typing this, there is something on the news (listening in my bedroom to news in the living room) about a person (or people?) being detained when trying to disembark a ship in Ft. Lauderdale. I'll post when I learn more.

I probably should have disclosed that my background is in Human Resources where proof of citizenship has been required for as long as I can remember. We were taught about people using social security numbers of deceased American citizens, etc. We also learned to look at the "type style" of your SS card, drivers' license, etc. If they were the same, they were likely forged. It generally takes years for people with forged documents to be caught. My mother-in-law was deceased for 10 years before the State of California stopped sending Handicapped Plaques to us (which we did not use). And, at least in California, it is not expensive to have forged documents prepared.

I respect your experience and it sounds broad, but did you have access to the same databases DHS has access to in order to verify the documents? I'm guessing that you didn't. And if you as an HR professional have been trained to spot phonies wouldn't you think that the people responsible for guarding our borders have received even more extensive training? (Not to mention a wider experience with a wider variety of documentation.) I seriously doubt that those "inexpensive" forged documents would stand up to the scrutiny of a trained professional, particularly when that professional has all the necessary databases at his or her disposal with which to verify the documents.

I probably should have disclosed that my background is in Human Resources where proof of citizenship has been required for as long as I can remember. We were taught about people using social security numbers of deceased American citizens, etc. We also learned to look at the "type font" on your SS card, drivers' license, etc. If they were the same, they were likely forged (you would be surprised at how many I caught). It generally takes years for people with forged documents to be caught. My mother-in-law was deceased for 10 years before the State of California stopped sending Handicapped Plaques to us (which we did not use). And, at least in California, it is not expensive to have forged documents prepared.

 

So, to answer your question about what would happen when someone with a "forged" drivers' license presented it when they wanted to board the ship, if they are assuming the identity of someone that is deceased, nothing would happen. They would be free to board the ship.

 

Keep in mind that illegal aliens can not apply for "legal documents". And, since most cruise lines do not have "closed loop" itineraries, those that do can be a target.

 

As I'm typing this, there is something on the news (listening in my bedroom to news in the living room) about a person (or people?) being detained when trying to disembark a ship in Ft. Lauderdale. I'll post when I learn more.

If a cruise line does not have closed loop itineraries then passengers won't be presenting driver's licenses to board, they will need passports in order to board (or possibly EDLs or passport cards depending on itinerary, but something more than just a drivers license), so it's highly doubtful they would be a "target". (And if someone is flagged while the cruise is ongoing then it is precisely at disembarkation where they will be detained.)

This is true but as I've said, if I did not already have a passport I would not be letting current events panic me into getting one until I needed it. Having said that, the President is concerned with external threats (at the moment at least), not internal ones.

Which is rather ignorant of Trump. Most of the terrorist acts that have occurred in this country has been by American citizens. This fact is easily verified. Plus, the obscenely high number of deaths from guns is a form of terrorism. Yet, he is doing nothing about "homegrown" terrorism of all kinds, including mass shootings. Gun control, even gun education, has never been on his radar.

He is completely blind to reality. He is focused on swatting the fly while the snake is about to bite.

I respect your experience and it sounds broad, but did you have access to the same databases DHS has access to in order to verify the documents? I'm guessing that you didn't. And if you as an HR professional have been trained to spot phonies wouldn't you think that the people responsible for guarding our borders have received even more extensive training? (Not to mention a wider experience with a wider variety of documentation.) I seriously doubt that those "inexpensive" forged documents would stand up to the scrutiny of a trained professional, particularly when that professional has all the necessary databases at his or her disposal with which to verify the documents.

First, sorry for the double post (or post and a half;-) Wish I could say that the government databases were up to date. From my experience, they are not. I would report a possible forged Social Security card (for instance) and they couldn't verify if the person was dead or alive. Also, at least in California, forged documents are amazingly well done. It is almost impossible to tell them from the real thing. And, as said earlier, if anyone (including Border Patrol) checks the database, if the name, address, etc. match, a former U.S. citizen will likely get through (at least for a year or two after the person passed away).

For years I've wondered why their databases are so behind. We have the technology to know who every single citizen or green card holder is and if they are dead or alive. Things are so messed up that when my DH brought his mother to the U.S. from England (he had to prove that he could support her for the rest of her life and that she would never be on welfare), first, the government lost his passport. Then, it took so long to get everything figured out that she became an "Illegal Alien" for about six months (note: she was 85 years old at the time). So, whatever people think that the government knows about us is usually incorrect (if they knew more, there would likely be less illegals in the country).

Police in our state are not allowed to question whether or not a person is here legally (even when they are being arrested for a serious crime). They can sit in jail - at our expense for years. IMO, the system is broken and is in desperate need of fixing.

But short of going to certain federal locations, a passport wouldn't be required for a year. So why get one "as soon as you can"? Or would you like everyone to carry passports wherever they go and they must present the "papers" whenever asked for them? :rolleyes:

You don't know that, for all any of us know an executive order will be signed tomorrow requiring passports for all cruisers. With the current administration it is almost impossible to tell what is coming next.

There is only one lane going into Canada near where I live but no, if they did have a Nexus lane I do not think that I would not be eligible to use it. That's the thing, issuing a passport doesn't involve a background check, it just verifies a person's citizenship (although some checks are done because some people cannot have a passport and that information has to be available somewhere). It doesn't mean the person doesn't have a record or is on any type of no travel list. It just means that they have provided proof that the holder is a citizen of the US. TSA Pre-check, Global Entry, and Nexus are all programs where the traveler is able to provide their personal information and a background check is run on them to ensure that they are a "trusted traveler" which reduces their wait time when entering.

]I just assumed that background checks were done on everyone that gets a Passport here in the states but your saying they don't? Wow I thought that was the norm when getting a passport after 9/11, learn something new everyday. They ask a lot of things on the form is why I assumed it was done when we applied. And Canada does it when people of that country apply for a Passport/Nexus card?

We have never been to canada but will probably go when we go on a cruise to alaska.Can you use the EDL and passport when entering canada and how do you know if your license is an actual EDL, Does it say it on it someplace or you just check the site that gives what states already have them?

I don't think that any us of know the extent that the U.S. Government goes through before issuing a passport. I personally only know that background checks for NEXUS and Global Entry is quite comprehensive.

In terms of entering Canada, IMO, some of their laws are extremely confusing. For instance, if you have had a DUI, you technically cannot enter the country..... however, in many cases, if you pay $200 (U.S.) you can get a temporary pass to enter the country.

I don't think that any us of know the extent that the U.S. Government goes through before issuing a passport. I personally only know that background checks for NEXUS and Global Entry is quite comprehensive.

 

In terms of entering Canada, IMO, some of their laws are extremely confusing. For instance, if you have had a DUI, you technically cannot enter the country..... however, in many cases, if you pay $200 (U.S.) you can get a temporary pass to enter the country.

Yeah who knows with our world the way it is today, The Nexus only pertains to Canada right? What I was asking is do we need anything besides our passport to enter canada while on a cruise.

Lastlt how do we know if our license is an EDL? I cheched the non compliant list and ours is not on there. Thanks

First, sorry for the double post (or post and a half;-) Wish I could say that the government databases were up to date. From my experience, they are not. I would report a possible forged Social Security card (for instance) and they couldn't verify if the person was dead or alive. Also, at least in California, forged documents are amazingly well done. It is almost impossible to tell them from the real thing. And, as said earlier, if anyone (including Border Patrol) checks the database, if the name, address, etc. match, a former U.S. citizen will likely get through (at least for a year or two after the person passed away).

 

For years I've wondered why their databases are so behind. We have the technology to know who every single citizen or green card holder is and if they are dead or alive. Things are so messed up that when my DH brought his mother to the U.S. from England (he had to prove that he could support her for the rest of her life and that she would never be on welfare), first, the government lost his passport. Then, it took so long to get everything figured out that she became an "Illegal Alien" for about six months (note: she was 85 years old at the time). So, whatever people think that the government knows about us is usually incorrect (if they knew more, there would likely be less illegals in the country).

 

Police in our state are not allowed to question whether or not a person is here legally (even when they are being arrested for a serious crime). They can sit in jail - at our expense for years. IMO, the system is broken and is in desperate need of fixing.

You still haven't put forth anything that would make any sense about why anyone, especially an illegal alien, would forge a document to leave on a cruise that comes right back to the US. Illegal aliens don't routinely go on vacation and if they do they certainly aren't leaving the country they worked so hard to get into in the first place. They are not doing things to draw attention to themselves, which they most certainly would be doing if they went on a closed loop cruise. It makes even less sense for a US citizen to pay to have documents forged in order to go on a closed loop cruise. One of the intents of the REAL ID act is to make it harder to forge these documents.

]I just assumed that background checks were done on everyone that gets a Passport here in the states but your saying they don't? Wow I thought that was the norm when getting a passport after 9/11, learn something new everyday. They ask a lot of things on the form is why I assumed it was done when we applied. And Canada does it when people of that country apply for a Passport/Nexus card?

We have never been to canada but will probably go when we go on a cruise to alaska.Can you use the EDL and passport when entering canada and how do you know if your license is an actual EDL, Does it say it on it someplace or you just check the site that gives what states already have them?

Yeah who knows with our world the way it is today, The Nexus only pertains to Canada right? What I was asking is do we need anything besides our passport to enter canada while on a cruise.

 

Lastlt how do we know if our license is an EDL? I cheched the non compliant list and ours is not on there. Thanks

Right now only 5 states are issuing EDLs and an EDL is easy to spot- it has Enhanced across the top and a US flag on the front. They generally cost more than the standard license. To the best of my knowledge no background check is done when issuing a passport, although they do check to make sure that you aren't on the list of owing back child support. A passport is issued to verify that you are a citizen of the US, nothing more, nothing less. That's why travelers need to apply for TSA pre-check, Nexus, Sentri, Global Entry, etc. so a check can be done to allow those travelers to be cleared faster at security checkpoints. You do not need anything but your passport to enter Canada and the only other thing you might possibly need when visiting any other country is a visa.

Which is rather ignorant of Trump. Most of the terrorist acts that have occurred in this country has been by American citizens. This fact is easily verified. Plus, the obscenely high number of deaths from guns is a form of terrorism. Yet, he is doing nothing about "homegrown" terrorism of all kinds, including mass shootings. Gun control, even gun education, has never been on his radar.

 

He is completely blind to reality. He is focused on swatting the fly while the snake is about to bite.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but again I wouldn't let anything that is going on panic me into getting a passport that I didn't need.

Yes - I do believe that people would use counterfeit DL's and birth certificates to go on a closed loop cruise if it enabled them to bring the makings for a bomb or some other illegal item into the U.S. Hate to answer a question with a question but aren't there explosives available outside of the U.S. that are not available in the U.S.?

I've asked this multiple times now... how would requiring a passport stop people from bringing in some illegal item?

In terms of cruise lines getting upset if closed loop cruises were suddenly stopped, it actually would only affect a few cruise lines (large ones but only a few). Many cruise lines do not even offer closed loop cruises. In fact, I learned about them on CC.

You don't know that, for all any of us know an executive order will be signed tomorrow requiring passports for all cruisers. With the current administration it is almost impossible to tell what is coming next.

But by what logic does it make sense to require passports for closed loop cruises? The current executive order (banning people entering from certain countries) has some logic behind it (although flawed). What does requiring a passport help prevent that the current documentation doesn't? No one seems to be able to answer that.