Why Does Viking Discriminate Against the Disabled?

My husband is fully disabled and uses a mobility scooter. We thought we would like to try Viking Ocean, but upon reading their FAQ section, they refuse to allow anyone who uses a scooter to board their ships, saying that scooters and International travel do not mix. We have traveled extensively on other lines, even on small ships such as Silver Cloud and Seabourn, where having a scooter was not a problem. So, how does VO get away with this, fully knowing that the US Supreme Court ruled in Spector v NCL that cruise lines who cruise into or out of US ports must comply with the ADA? Although they say they will allow wheelchairs, I'm not able to push my husband in a wheelchair because of my own physical limitations, and this policy also discriminates against disabled solo cruisers who don't need the assistance of a travel companion, but do need a scooter.

While we fully understand that scooters are not something that meshes well with riverboats, there should be no problem with having them on ocean going vessels. As I said, we've never been denied cruising on any other ocean vessel.

This policy sounds like something that may require that a complaint be filed with the US Department of Justice, Office of the ADA.

Dear cruisead,

Our ocean ships are equipped with two ADA cabins and, as you read, guests who require the use of a wheelchair are permitted to bring their own collapsible wheelchair onboard. To ensure the safety and comfort of all our guests, motorized scooters are not permitted. The weight and size of motorized scooters can be difficult to manage on a Viking vessel and various circumstances, including weather and port accessibility, can make onshore usage nearly impossible.

We appreciate the opportunity to clarify the ways in which we do comply with the ADA. Should you have any specific questions related to this topic, we would be happy to hear from you at TellUs@vikingcruises.com.

Kind regards,

Viking Cruises

My husband is fully disabled and uses a mobility scooter. We thought we would like to try Viking Ocean, but upon reading their FAQ section, they refuse to allow anyone who uses a scooter to board their ships, saying that scooters and International travel do not mix. We have traveled extensively on other lines, even on small ships such as Silver Cloud and Seabourn, where having a scooter was not a problem. So, how does VO get away with this, fully knowing that the US Supreme Court ruled in Spector v NCL that cruise lines who cruise into or out of US ports must comply with the ADA? Although they say they will allow wheelchairs, I'm not able to push my husband in a wheelchair because of my own physical limitations, and this policy also discriminates against disabled solo cruisers who don't need the assistance of a travel companion, but do need a scooter.

 

While we fully understand that scooters are not something that meshes well with riverboats, there should be no problem with having them on ocean going vessels. As I said, we've never been denied cruising on any other ocean vessel.

 

This policy sounds like something that may require that a complaint be filed with the US Department of Justice, Office of the ADA.

My husband is fully disabled and uses a mobility scooter. We thought we would like to try Viking Ocean, but upon reading their FAQ section, they refuse to allow anyone who uses a scooter to board their ships, saying that scooters and International travel do not mix. We have traveled extensively on other lines, even on small ships such as Silver Cloud and Seabourn, where having a scooter was not a problem. So, how does VO get away with this, fully knowing that the US Supreme Court ruled in Spector v NCL that cruise lines who cruise into or out of US ports must comply with the ADA? Although they say they will allow wheelchairs, I'm not able to push my husband in a wheelchair because of my own physical limitations, and this policy also discriminates against disabled solo cruisers who don't need the assistance of a travel companion, but do need a scooter.

 

While we fully understand that scooters are not something that meshes well with riverboats, there should be no problem with having them on ocean going vessels. As I said, we've never been denied cruising on any other ocean vessel.

 

This policy sounds like something that may require that a complaint be filed with the US Department of Justice, Office of the ADA.

While you cite Spector v. NCL, you have not read all of the finding. The justices found that foreign ships must make "readily achievable" changes in accessibility, that did not require major redesign of the ship and did not contravene SOLAS.

However, the justices also found that absent a " clear statement of congressional intent" that no statute can "interfere with matters that concern a foreign-flag vessel’s internal affairs and operations." Here the justices kicked the ball back to Congress, saying that unless Congress amends the ADA to specifically include foreign flag cruise ships, then most of the ADA does not in fact apply to foreign flag cruise ships, even if they sail out of US ports. Viking's decision to not allow scooters is an example of the ship's "internal affairs and operations". To date, Congress has been silent on modifying the ADA for foreign flag cruise ships.

There is only one large, ocean-going cruise ship that must completely comply with the ADA, and that is NCL's Pride of America, since it is US flag.

Sorry, but that is just one of the "protections" that US citizens have in the US that they expect to extend to foreign territory.

Viking Cruises, I'm sorry, but this response is not acceptable. What do you mean that the weight and size of motorized scooters are difficult to manage on Viking ships? I mean, if we can manage air travel with scooters, why not your ships? What makes your ships so special that a disabled person on a scooter can't manage them? And what does your rule against scooters have to do with weather and port stops? I've traveled in Europe, South Africa, South America and Asia with my scooter on lines like Crystal and Oceania with nary a problem. I, and other disabled cruisers, know what we can and cannot do on a cruise and we do not expect to be lifted and carried on and off ships. We know that we must plan our own shore excursions and we know that we cannot leave the ship if it's a tender port. And I want to point out to you, and the leaders of Viking Oceans, that many cruisers, both able bodied and disabled, use cruise ships as their destination, and ports are of no interest. So perhaps Viking Oceans needs to step into this century and rid themselves of outdated notions.

While you cite Spector v. NCL, you have not read all of the finding. The justices found that foreign ships must make "readily achievable" changes in accessibility, that did not require major redesign of the ship and did not contravene SOLAS.

 

However, the justices also found that absent a " clear statement of congressional intent" that no statute can "interfere with matters that concern a foreign-flag vessel’s internal affairs and operations." Here the justices kicked the ball back to Congress, saying that unless Congress amends the ADA to specifically include foreign flag cruise ships, then most of the ADA does not in fact apply to foreign flag cruise ships, even if they sail out of US ports. Viking's decision to not allow scooters is an example of the ship's "internal affairs and operations". To date, Congress has been silent on modifying the ADA for foreign flag cruise ships.

 

There is only one large, ocean-going cruise ship that must completely comply with the ADA, and that is NCL's Pride of America, since it is US flag.

 

Sorry, but that is just one of the "protections" that US citizens have in the US that they expect to extend to foreign territory.

Chengkp75, while your comments are correct, I can understand cruisead's position. No one is forcing Viking Ocean to rebuild their ships, modify their superstructures or make the ship non compliant with SOLAS. And how does a scooter interfere with their internal affairs and operations? If every other cruise line accepts scooters, does that not establish precedence? Does this not point to the fact that Viking Oceans has made the unilateral decision to not allow scooters without establishing hard evidence as to why? If every other line has no problem with disabled cruisers, why does Viking?

I had my TA contact someone in the upper echelons of Viking and his response was that "this is not a great vacation type for those who are completely wheelchair bound. They are simply not going to have the great experience than others." If this is the attitude of the people who run Viking Oceans, it's pathetic. Thousands of totally disabled people, including paraplegics and quadriplegics, cruise every year and have fantastic experiences. And all those other cruise lines are foreign flagged and have no problem welcoming us aboard.

Chengkp75, while your comments are correct, I can understand cruisead's position. No one is forcing Viking Ocean to rebuild their ships, modify their superstructures or make the ship non compliant with SOLAS. And how does a scooter interfere with their internal affairs and operations? If every other cruise line accepts scooters, does that not establish precedence? Does this not point to the fact that Viking Oceans has made the unilateral decision to not allow scooters without establishing hard evidence as to why? If every other line has no problem with disabled cruisers, why does Viking?

 

I had my TA contact someone in the upper echelons of Viking and his response was that "this is not a great vacation type for those who are completely wheelchair bound. They are simply not going to have the great experience than others." If this is the attitude of the people who run Viking Oceans, it's pathetic. Thousands of totally disabled people, including paraplegics and quadriplegics, cruise every year and have fantastic experiences. And all those other cruise lines are foreign flagged and have no problem welcoming us aboard.

And no one is forcing anyone to cruise on Viking either. Whether or not there is "precedent", it is each cruise line's decision as to whether to accommodate the ADA or not. If you feel this is pathetic, then don't spend your money with them, but also don't complain that Viking is "unilateral" in their decision, because it is their decision. While I have no problem with accommodating folks who need accessibility options, and in fact worked to convert the Norwegian Sky to the Pride of Aloha (which as US flag needed to meet the ADA fully), it is a simple fact of life that the freedoms and customs that are considered everyday life in the US are not followed in other countries, and businesses in those countries can follow their own conscious.

While I sympathize, I can certainly understand the position Viking and other cruise lines have taken. I have cruised several other cruise lines (Oceania, Princess, Celebrity) and never seen a mobility scooter on any of them. I can see that it would be very difficult to get a scooter up and down the little bump ups that are encountered on a cruise ship, plus the halls are too narrow for anything else to fit besides a scooter. Tendering and going up and down ramps to board, disembark, etc. would be next to impossible. In Europe, which doesn't have ADA, many ports and city are very difficult for people in wheelchairs, so exploring shoreside could be problematic.

If Silver Cloud and Seabourn can manage, I would stick with them. They're much smaller ships and so the impact of scooters on the ship probably isn't as great.

"And I want to point out to you, and the leaders of Viking Oceans, that many cruisers, both able bodied and disabled, use cruise ships as their destination, and ports are of no interest. So perhaps Viking Oceans needs to step into this century and rid themselves of outdated notions."

I think that is the crux of your issue.

Anyone who has read the vision and brochures, and articles about Viking Oceans Cruise line know that ports are essential to their visions.

As a travel writer had said, Viking Ocean is not just a a beatuiful ship, but takes seriously the water, landscapes, and the ports of call to which the ships sails.

I think the other cruise lines you mentioned are more suitable to your vision of a cruise ship IMO.

I think "Discriminate" is a strong term. They have made a decision not to allow these scooters on their ships. As explained above, being foreign flagged vessels they are not bound by the ADA laws.

Unfortunately, scoters tend to be large and heavy, which doesn't work well when the ship is tendered. In addition there are only two Ada cabins so more then likely the scatter would not fit in the cabin. As others have written, if you find a line that has more to offer than go with them. Don't go with NCL.

Maybe the reality is gonna hurt your feelers. If I were a cruise line, I wouldn't allow scooters either. They are an annoyance to other passengers, there is the annoyance of this entitlement mentality that some clearly have that they should be treated specially or can demand entry to a privately owned foreign vessel and there's the brand image.

Viking Ocean is a new line and priced in the realm that middle class families generally will struggle with. Notice there are no water slides and minimal advertising for kids activities. HOWEVER, Viking Ocean also runs the risk of appealing to older folks, which absolutely does hurt their brand. If you don't believe me, go check out comments about Holland America.

If they are trying to brand themselves as a cool, contemporary cruise line to upscale middle aged people and "younger" retirees without the formality of some of their competitors, they are not going to want the business of the scooter bound. You see references to Holland America as being a floating hospital, or a morgue after 10pm.

I'm intrigued by Holland America, but the comments my wife has heard has totally ruled them out. Viking Ocean likely doesn't want to earn that reputation because they otherwise compete for much of the same desirable demographics.

Of course they won't say it, but I'd guess they are afraid your business hurts their business. So stick with those who want your business. Clearly with new ships, they could have chosen to accommodate you but chose not to. Lots of ships in the sea for you to choose from.

Gee, exbiologist, it does hurt my "feelers" (feelings) to be lumped into what you term as an undesirable demographic (you said we aren't Viking's desirable demo). I truly hope that you, or a loved one of yours, is never confined to a wheelchair or scooter, because if you are, you can join us undesirable cruisers. But please explain to me how we are an annoyance? I don't bother anyone with my scooter, it's never parked in the hall, so what's so annoying? And your reference to the economics of Viking and their price structure, I'm sorry, but that's a stinky elitist attitude. For what it's worth, I have two cruises booked on Oceania, in the Owners Suite, for more than $40K, total. So you see, a cruise on Viking would be bargain basement.

Roothy123, I have no idea how many cruises you've taken, but I've been on more than 90, on my scooter, and I've been on Celebrity 36 times, Oceania 3 times, Princess 5 times and just about every other line out there, and I've seen many, many scooters on every line, so I have no idea how you've never seen one. We manage to get around cruise ships with no problem, including all those little bumps and ramps you mention. Yes,me know tenders aren't possible, but we know that going in.

And as for the comment that Viking has a "vision" for their cruises, I'm sorry, but that's gibberish. But, if Viking has so little faith that their cruise ships can provide a fun experience ON their ships, and only want to focus on ports, well, that's pretty telling. There are a lot of able bodied cruisers who see the ship as their destination, and never get off in the ports. But it seems like Viking can't/won't provide that type of cruise to anyone.

Oh boy....

I'd support Viking on this one. I think one point that has been missed is that there is no barrier to entry of the disabled on the ship, as the Viking post stated, a collapsible wheelchair is permitted.

The scooter is the problem. They are in the view of the line basically unsafe and or not fit for use on their vessel.

It's odd that the first thought is "discrimination", that is a fairly harsh term. As others have stated, if you don't like their policy, you are perfectly free to discriminate against this cruise line and take your business elsewhere.

Citing a Supreme Court decision, or just the part of it you like is of little use. Do you plan on trying to haul a foreign based corporation into court? How far do you think you would get? What are your damages, and if you can be reasonably accommodated via a wheelchair, what exactly is the complaint?

My two cents ... I found it a bit surprising that ECV are not allowed on Viking Ocean ... not sure if it applies to Viking River also ... surprising considering the age demographics that tend to go on these type of cruises ... I've seen scooters on every line from Disney to Celebrity to Carnival and so forth ...

I agree whole heartedly kitty9 ... one can be totally oblivious until something happens to them or a loved one that changes their lives ... and bless that person who ages and doesn't require the use of a mobility device ...

If Viking was the only game in town, then I would be concerned ... Viking may be one less option for those who require ECVs ... but the great thing is that other cruise lines are available to provide the cruising experience ...

Bottom line: Viking focuses on destinations. Visiting destinations. They make the ship itself an enjoyable place to be but the focus is not on the ship but on the places you go and the things you do in the ports they visit. Few sea days many port days. If you don't like this model, want a cruise with lots of sea days, with lots of entertainment offered on board, then please book with cruise lines that do that. Don't criticize Viking for the travel model it uses. Personally I like it. And detest the other models.

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I have been thinking about this thread......I suppose it definitely has room for different positions and dialogues.....and while I do understand the disappointment in not being able to travel with scooters.....I also respect that it is Viking's choice to comply with ADA without allowing scooters. Their company, their rules. They have the right to make them. Without the oh so common threat nowadays of lawsuits.

Not the same....but Holland America goes against all health recommendations and common health sense in allowing smoking on balconies, at outdoor pools, in their casinos and outdoor areas -resulting in becoming the go to cruise line for smokers - People have many choices to take other cruise lines.....so I for one will not cruise with them due to their rules on smoking. Second hand smoke is difficult to avoid on their ships. Again tho - Their line. Their rules.

I also won't cruise on lines with climbing walls and water slides full of kids and thousands of people. Some people love that when they cruise. There are lots of cruise lines and cruise environments available -

So Maybe since there are choices out there that the OP has been happy with, then those remain good solutions - and I am glad that they are available for the OP.

JMHO

Gee, exbiologist, it does hurt my "feelers" (feelings) to be lumped into what you term as an undesirable demographic (you said we aren't Viking's desirable demo). I truly hope that you, or a loved one of yours, is never confined to a wheelchair or scooter, because if you are, you can join us undesirable cruisers. But please explain to me how we are an annoyance? I don't bother anyone with my scooter, it's never parked in the hall, so what's so annoying? And your reference to the economics of Viking and their price structure, I'm sorry, but that's a stinky elitist attitude. For what it's worth, I have two cruises booked on Oceania, in the Owners Suite, for more than $40K, total. So you see, a cruise on Viking would be bargain basement.

Chengkp75, while your comments are correct, I can understand cruisead's position. No one is forcing Viking Ocean to rebuild their ships, modify their superstructures or make the ship non compliant with SOLAS. And how does a scooter interfere with their internal affairs and operations? If every other cruise line accepts scooters, does that not establish precedence? Does this not point to the fact that Viking Oceans has made the unilateral decision to not allow scooters without establishing hard evidence as to why? If every other line has no problem with disabled cruisers, why does Viking?

 

I had my TA contact someone in the upper echelons of Viking and his response was that "this is not a great vacation type for those who are completely wheelchair bound. They are simply not going to have the great experience than others." If this is the attitude of the people who run Viking Oceans, it's pathetic. Thousands of totally disabled people, including paraplegics and quadriplegics, cruise every year and have fantastic experiences. And all those other cruise lines are foreign flagged and have no problem welcoming us aboard.

Viking Cruises, I'm sorry, but this response is not acceptable. What do you mean that the weight and size of motorized scooters are difficult to manage on Viking ships? I mean, if we can manage air travel with scooters, why not your ships? What makes your ships so special that a disabled person on a scooter can't manage them? And what does your rule against scooters have to do with weather and port stops? I've traveled in Europe, South Africa, South America and Asia with my scooter on lines like Crystal and Oceania with nary a problem. I, and other disabled cruisers, know what we can and cannot do on a cruise and we do not expect to be lifted and carried on and off ships. We know that we must plan our own shore excursions and we know that we cannot leave the ship if it's a tender port. And I want to point out to you, and the leaders of Viking Oceans, that many cruisers, both able bodied and disabled, use cruise ships as their destination, and ports are of no interest. So perhaps Viking Oceans needs to step into this century and rid themselves of outdated notions.

My husband is fully disabled and uses a mobility scooter. We thought we would like to try Viking Ocean, but upon reading their FAQ section, they refuse to allow anyone who uses a scooter to board their ships, saying that scooters and International travel do not mix. We have traveled extensively on other lines, even on small ships such as Silver Cloud and Seabourn, where having a scooter was not a problem. So, how does VO get away with this, fully knowing that the US Supreme Court ruled in Spector v NCL that cruise lines who cruise into or out of US ports must comply with the ADA? Although they say they will allow wheelchairs, I'm not able to push my husband in a wheelchair because of my own physical limitations, and this policy also discriminates against disabled solo cruisers who don't need the assistance of a travel companion, but do need a scooter.

 

While we fully understand that scooters are not something that meshes well with riverboats, there should be no problem with having them on ocean going vessels. As I said, we've never been denied cruising on any other ocean vessel.

 

This policy sounds like something that may require that a complaint be filed with the US Department of Justice, Office of the ADA.

That's how/why.

And yes you do bother people with your scooter, they just won't tell you. But it's not just the scooter, its the pilot, and the demands they make on the system.

By the way, I do have 3 mobility impaired relatives, I just don't have sympathy for those who demand something they are not entitled to.

As for the economics, maybe I wasn't clear. In general older people have more money than younger people, so it's not an issue of whether the mobility impaired have the resources and can fill their berths. It's partly an issue of whether you will spend any money on extras, especially drinks. But more importantly, if they become known as too accommodating to the mobility impaired (whether they are elderly or obese) it turns off other guests (see your own statements above, I don't want to share a table with someone with that attitude) and hurts their brand image, causing fares to drop like HAL, which is barely more than Carnival or RCI on many itineraries.

Look at Seabourn, they have a link regarding "Accessible Cruising" under one of the main headers on their website, not buried in a FAQ. They want your business and probably won't get mine. Viking Ocean doesn't want your business.

Those complaints may not fit you. Maybe you are a wonderful conversationist that doesn't complain about the food, the temperature, the weather, the pricing, the portions, the noise, the vibration, the speed of service or how things used to be so much better. Maybe you do drink, dance, gamble buy extras or add other value to the cruise. Maybe your scooter doesn't get in anyone's way, take up 80% of the elevator and you're able to hide it in your room and maneuver it in the dining room or bar or theater and get on and off the tenders. Maybe you request no special accommodation of the system, other than special bathrooms, special doors, special seating, special meals, special ramps, special embarkation, special debarkation, special safety measures, specially trained staff or other special services.

Maybe you can see why mobility scooters and their pilots aren't a demographic some cruise lines are clamoring for.

It seems Viking has provided cabins and welcomes wheelchairs on board. What they do not allow are the scooters. Seems like a reasonable compromise.

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And as for the comment that Viking has a "vision" for their cruises, I'm sorry, but that's gibberish. But, if Viking has so little faith that their cruise ships can provide a fun experience ON their ships, and only want to focus on ports, well, that's pretty telling. There are a lot of able bodied cruisers who see the ship as their destination, and never get off in the ports. But it seems like Viking can't/won't provide that type of cruise to anyone.

Respectfully, NOT gibberish. It is a model that Viking offers and that many customers want. Their model is to focus on the ship as an extremely comfortable enjoyable conveyance to travel to destinations. If this model does not suit how YOU like to cruise that's fine; there are plenty of cruise lines that offer what you want. You are free to book with them. Please do. You have no right to demand that Viking change its model to suit you especially when there are many folks like me who are positively thrilled with Viking's model. Which is why Viking is our cruise line of choice.

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"And I want to point out to you, and the leaders of Viking Oceans, that many cruisers, both able bodied and disabled, use cruise ships as their destination, and ports are of no interest. So perhaps Viking Oceans needs to step into this century and rid themselves of outdated notions."

I think that is the crux of your issue.

 

Anyone who has read the vision and brochures, and articles about Viking Oceans Cruise line know that ports are essential to their visions.

As a travel writer had said, Viking Ocean is not just a a beatuiful ship, but takes seriously the water, landscapes, and the ports of call to which the ships sails.

 

I think the other cruise lines you mentioned are more suitable to your vision of a cruise ship IMO.

Hear! Hear! Better said than my last post.

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Thank you ,CharTrav

We both found a cruise line that fits us to a tee.

I am slightly confused. My husband just brought up trying Viking Ocean as we have wanted to sail Scandinavia for several years but just haven't found the right itinerary. I use a wheelchair full time. It does fold but not the way most cheap hospital chairs do. It folds forward as in back toward seat and the rear wheels pop off at the push of a button. Does this mean I am allowed on their tenders? No, I do not stand nor walk. As long as they have a reasonable gangway I have no problems on embarking and disembraking. I do need a cabin with a wider door as well as the bathroom door and a roll in shower and roll under sink. I am below the age of HAL's normal demographic and understand their image as "steak night at the nursing home". But if the itinerary fits, well, I'd rather be cruising and fully intend to take any chance to explore ports.

Do I fit Viking or are those ADA compliant rooms for people who have sprained an ankle?

NorthernLite, IMHO, there are some situations when the best way to get the most reliable answer to your question is to ask the cruise line directly. They will be able to tell you about room dimensions, clearances, ability to tender, etc. Email them at tellus@vikingcruises.com and ask them to call you to discuss your questions.

Can't answer all of your questions, but would think if you have navigated tenders on the previous cruises you have taken, you should be able to do so on Viking Ocean as their tender boarding arrangements are pretty much the same.

My two cents ... I found it a bit surprising that ECV are not allowed on Viking Ocean ... not sure if it applies to Viking River also ... surprising considering the age demographics that tend to go on these type of cruises ... I've seen scooters on every line from Disney to Celebrity to Carnival and so forth ...

 

I agree whole heartedly kitty9 ... one can be totally oblivious until something happens to them or a loved one that changes their lives ... and bless that person who ages and doesn't require the use of a mobility device ...

 

If Viking was the only game in town, then I would be concerned ... Viking may be one less option for those who require ECVs ... but the great thing is that other cruise lines are available to provide the cruising experience ...

River boats tend to be very limited in support for those in wheel chairs, as in not recommended by most lines. Limited elevator access, potential for rafting, many excursions are walking tours, etc. Viking Ocean's policy seems to be more in line with Viking River then other ocean cruise lines.

It would also fit that their targeted customer base is the same as for their river cruises.