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Enough roll to make you nauseous?


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I'm not one to get seasick but I was wondering how much roll and pitch most people can handle?

 

The following videos were taken last year on a very large ship, as long as the largest RCI Oasis-class ships and almost just as beamy but the ship doesn't have any stabilisers. We did skirt a storm and I didn't take any videos during the worst of seas encountered.

 

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I am very lucky not to get seasick (at least not yet, touch wood!), even if it's really, really rough. My eyes seem happy to take my ears' word for it that there is motion, even if I can't see it, and all is well.

 

Where I have had problems is somewhere like a planetarium, where the fake stars spin around overhead, or a film shot where the camera circles round and round the hero. Something about my eyes seeing motion that my ears can't feel makes me a bit green. I have to close my eyes, and then everything is fine.

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I've been on some pretty rocky ships, but it's the subtle roll that gets me. Sea bands work for us, but also changing position. On our first cruise (Royal Princess I) we had an OV with the beds against the outer wall. We found we could not sit in our beds and read. the solution was to got out and about, or go to bed. This has proved true several times. I can't sit and face the window/porthole and work on my computer if there is a bit of roll. EM

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It depends upon the individual, not the degree of roll. Some of us actually prefer feeling the ship pitch and roll to smooth sailing. What does seem to affect the sensitive is a consistent rolling motion: same frequency and degree of roll being repeated rather than the occasional lurch.

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On this ship, we were high up, just below the captain's suite. Mattresses were very firm, with no underlay. During the worst of the skirted-around storm, you couldn't sleep on your side as the end of the roll would roll you over due to your body's momentum. The First Officer's solution was to sleep on his front arms spread wide to keep him from rolling The crew said they couldn't sleep when the roll was more than 25 degrees each way (I only measured 15 degrees at most). Some crew slept on their in-cabin sofa as it was perpendicular to motion so they wouldn't be thrown off (but the blood rush to one's head....)

 

Waiting to see what it'll be like on the upcoming TPAC headed the other way.

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We've been in really bad seas multiple times - most of them on Australia/New Zealand crossings, but also on a northern TA near Shetland Islands & Iceland. We're very lucky, never once have either of us been seasick or even queasy - we actually love the rocking/rolling motions and sleep great. The only thing that bothers us is if we get a 'jerky' motion going which causes cabin drawers & doors to open & slam shut and hangers to clang together in the closet. We quickly learned that duct tape is the answer to that problem, so a small roll goes on every trip with us.

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On this ship, we were high up, just below the captain's suite. Mattresses were very firm, with no underlay. During the worst of the skirted-around storm, you couldn't sleep on your side as the end of the roll would roll you over due to your body's momentum. The First Officer's solution was to sleep on his front arms spread wide to keep him from rolling The crew said they couldn't sleep when the roll was more than 25 degrees each way (I only measured 15 degrees at most). Some crew slept on their in-cabin sofa as it was perpendicular to motion so they wouldn't be thrown off (but the blood rush to one's head....)

 

Waiting to see what it'll be like on the upcoming TPAC headed the other way.

 

I get an error on your videos.

 

The best ship design has bunks going thwartship, so that the roll makes you go head down then feet up, as you say some crew did. If your bunk is fore and aft, then many nights I've slept on the couch. Another way, since on cargo ships, most of the bunks are built against the bulkhead, is to take the life jacket and place it under the mattress at the outside edge, so the mattress forms a ramp towards the bulkhead, and you sleep in the "V".

 

You are under the common misconception that cruise ship stabilizers "lessen" the roll. They don't. They work to slow the roll period. The cargo ship you were on (container ship?) had a fairly low center of gravity, and hence a low GM (metacentric height), and ships with low GM tend to roll more easily, to greater roll angles, and roll slowly, since there is a much lesser moment arm for the righting force to work on (what makes the ship return to vertical). A cruise ship has a higher center of gravity, and hence a higher GM, which makes a ship "stiff", meaning it takes more force to get the ship to start rolling, the righting moment becomes greater quicker so the roll angle is less, but the roll is uncomfortably quick ("snap rolling", talk to destroyer sailors about this). The stabilizers work "out of synchronism" with the rolling motion of the hull, to dampen the roll period. You have to have some rolling first to get the stabilizers to react, so they are always out of synch with the roll, slowing it down. The designed stiffness of the ship limits the roll angle.

 

I won't say I'm typical, but under 25-35* of roll, I'm fine. Much above 30* and it becomes uncomfortable walking and working on the ship, and there are some sleepless nights. As you say, I'll sleep on my front, with arms holding the mattress edges, and I know its time to get up when my arms ache.

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Most cruise ships only have a few cabins where the bunks are atwartship and those are the cabins we always pick, most of the time it means a great nights sleep.

 

 

But in a heavy sea with decent pitching those cabins can be interesting... there have been a few nights where my wife and I have had trouble staying on the bunk and have considered sleeping on the floor. Decent pitching with little roll... e.g. westward passage across the Atlantic in winter :)

 

 

Some cruise ship classes have a high GM even for a cruise ship - Spirit class (Carnival) and Vista class (Holland-America, P&O, Cunard) in particular are quite stiff. Which to me is uncomfortable to start with, but after a few hours I actually prefer the ship saying to me "I want to be UPRIGHT!!!"

 

 

But the abrupt change of motion from rolling to not rolling (scientifically,it's called "jerk", it's the rate of change of acceleration) can catch people out especially if they are on a staircase and not holding the rail... :(

 

 

VP

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Thanks for informing me how stabilsers actually work. I know they don't negate roll completely. I thought they were just static wings that come out of the side of the ship (how far?)

 

All the beds on this ship (bolted down) were arranged fore and aft, fortunately the sofas were twartship. I did try the sofa but I can't say I found it comfortable (Gs from blood rushing to the head and then away). Maybe it's because I often sleep without a pillow. Since pax bunks weren't against walls, one couldn't wedge oneself in.

 

The first time we sailed on a small ship (Prinsendam) was into a gale out of Civitavecchia. Nice combination of pitch and roll so one got "bed spins" without even being drunk. Beds were fore and aft. I won't go into the night ferries between the mainland and Corsica/Sardinia.

 

Twartship beds seem to be most common for inside and outside view cabins. I'm 3/3 in that department (1 HAL, 1 Princess, and most like upcoming Celebrity.

 

Here are the video links (which weren't the worst encountered on the voyage). Hope they work.

 

 

 

In the cabin poto above, the tag its mark the maximum roll recorded. I didn't think to do this until after the worst of the seas

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I am very lucky not to get seasick (at least not yet, touch wood!), even if it's really, really rough. My eyes seem happy to take my ears' word for it that there is motion, even if I can't see it, and all is well.

 

Where I have had problems is somewhere like a planetarium, where the fake stars spin around overhead, or a film shot where the camera circles round and round the hero. Something about my eyes seeing motion that my ears can't feel makes me a bit green. I have to close my eyes, and then everything is fine.

I cannot take any motion .For me it is one or two doses of Bonine before the ship leaves the initial port.

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Thanks for informing me how stabilsers actually work. I know they don't negate roll completely. I thought they were just static wings that come out of the side of the ship (how far?)

 

All the beds on this ship (bolted down) were arranged fore and aft, fortunately the sofas were twartship. I did try the sofa but I can't say I found it comfortable (Gs from blood rushing to the head and then away). Maybe it's because I often sleep without a pillow. Since pax bunks weren't against walls, one couldn't wedge oneself in.

 

The first time we sailed on a small ship (Prinsendam) was into a gale out of Civitavecchia. Nice combination of pitch and roll so one got "bed spins" without even being drunk. Beds were fore and aft. I won't go into the night ferries between the mainland and Corsica/Sardinia.

 

Twartship beds seem to be most common for inside and outside view cabins. I'm 3/3 in that department (1 HAL, 1 Princess, and most like upcoming Celebrity.

 

Here are the video links (which weren't the worst encountered on the voyage). Hope they work.

 

 

 

In the cabin poto above, the tag its mark the maximum roll recorded. I didn't think to do this until after the worst of the seas

 

Stabilizers are about 4-6 meters long. The roll sensor will change the "angle of attack" of the wing into the water (much like an airplane's aileron moves) to cause the "down" side of the ship to "climb" and the "up" side of the ship to "dive" (to use aeronautical terms).

 

I don't feel that anything in your videos is out of the ordinary for a cargo ship at sea. You can have flat days and days of gentle rolling like you show. Until you start to get above 15*, we normally don't even make reminders to the crew to be vigilant about securing stuff.

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We have twice experienced 30-foot seas and 50-knot winds. On a HAL ship, while eating in the buffet, we had to keep an arm on the table to keep the plates and glasses from sliding off. The ship was at an angle so that we saw nothing but water on the starboard side and nothing but sky on the port side.

 

But the only times I've felt a little bit seasick have been on smaller boats--like the ferry from Cozumel to Playa del Carmen. They call it the "Vomit Comet." Fortunately, I only felt queasy and did not lose my breakfast.

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The best ship design has bunks going thwartship, so that the roll makes you go head down then feet up, as you say some crew did. If your bunk is fore and aft, then many nights I've slept on the couch. Another way, since on cargo ships, most of the bunks are built against the bulkhead, is to take the life jacket and place it under the mattress at the outside edge, so the mattress forms a ramp towards the bulkhead, and you sleep in the "V".

 

I think it's strange that those large and capital-intensive ships, with very few people on it, are built without spending the money required that would allow for a decent sleep without needing to resort to "old sailor tricks" using life jackets. I'd sure hate the designer who got paid to draw a cabin where the couch turns out to be a nicer place to sleep than the bed. Even these balls seem to have a better sleep than a Chief Engineering!

 

Is it that hard to design a structure where all people sleep and relax midship? Maybe adding gyroscopes (or weights) to keep a bed steady?

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I think it's strange that those large and capital-intensive ships, with very few people on it, are built without spending the money required that would allow for a decent sleep

 

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Is it that hard to design a structure where all people sleep and relax midship? Maybe adding gyroscopes (or weights) to keep a bed steady?

 

Sure, bunks could (at substantial cost) be mounted on gimbals or be gyroscopically stabilized - so they would be motionless relative to the center of the Earth, letting the ship move around them - but I would imagine there would be a lot of injuries from people trying to get into or out of a stable bunk from a rolling and pitching deck.

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I think it's strange that those large and capital-intensive ships, with very few people on it, are built without spending the money required that would allow for a decent sleep without needing to resort to "old sailor tricks" using life jackets. I'd sure hate the designer who got paid to draw a cabin where the couch turns out to be a nicer place to sleep than the bed. Even these balls seem to have a better sleep than a Chief Engineering!

 

Is it that hard to design a structure where all people sleep and relax midship? Maybe adding gyroscopes (or weights) to keep a bed steady?

 

First off, a cargo ship is much less capital intensive than a cruise ship. Even container ships as large or larger than the largest cruise ships cost a fraction of the cost.

 

For most ships, if you put the "house" midships, you lose the cargo volume underneath (how do you load containers under the accommodation?), so the house is placed over the engine room, aft, where it doesn't block any access to cargo. Why can't the engine room be midships? Then you would have to have a incredibly long shaft, with all of its problems. Some ships like RO/RO's will place the house forward, either over a "horizontal" cargo area (a roll on/roll off car deck for instance), or over machinery spaces (bow throuster) and the forepeak ballast tank.

 

For a cargo ship, crew accommodation is the last consideration when designing the ship.

 

I've worked on offshore drilling vessels where the drill floor is gyro mounted, and the crew takes quite a lot of time to acclimate to this, watching the ship and the horizon move, while they don't, and then there are accidents when they come off tour and the accommodation block is not stabilized and they have to acclimate to pitch and roll again.

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Sure, bunks could (at substantial cost) be mounted on gimbals or be gyroscopically stabilized - so they would be motionless relative to the center of the Earth, letting the ship move around them - but I would imagine there would be a lot of injuries from people trying to get into or out of a stable bunk from a rolling and pitching deck.

 

Yes, probably as dangerous as getting of a seesaw that was designed for three year olds.

 

I'm not sure how substantial those costs really are compared to having employees who can have a decent sleep and might be willing to be paid less on a ship where the couch is not the best alternative for a bed.

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Ihe following videos were taken last year on a very large ship, as long as the largest RCI Oasis-class ships and almost just as beamy but the ship doesn't have any stabilisers.

 

I am not aware of any passenger ships that are nearly as big as the Oasis class, especially without stabilizers. I couldn't open the videos. Was this ship a commercial ship, such as a container ship?

 

EDIT: Never mind. I see from later posts that it was a commercial ship.

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A hammock was something that crossed out minds a few times, and would have been preferred on some nights by the crew. ChengkP75, the officer who told us he couldn't sleep if the roll was more than 25 degress would have been your counterpart (chief engineer). Maybe that's why they like to spend time deep in the hold.

 

The roll that I video'd was after the worst of the storm. During then, 2 litre bottles of water wouldn't stay upright on the dining table (1 or 2 floors above the main deck) and I nearly fell off my office chair once (there are furniture straps which shows you how bad it may get). I wish I had thought of videoing earlier and had brought a protractor to measure angles.

 

As for ship accommodations built above the engine room, that is normal but the newest and largest huge container ships built today are moving to an accommodation that's moved forward, such as the Explorer class ships of CMA CGM, the MSC Oscar (yes that MSC) and the OOCL Hong Kong (largest container ship) put in service. Better visibility is one proffered reason. Some of these ships supposedly even have an outdoor pool.

 

cmacgm-benjamin-franklin-20151221-dimensions.jpg

 

msc-oscar-container-ship-size.jpg

kjhgf.jpg

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Yes, the new mega container ships are required to move the house forward, it is a trade off with lost cargo volume, and I believe they move the fuel tankage to under the house. If the house were aft on these long ships with high container stacks, the "dead zone" of no visibility would extend for nearly a mile in front of the bow, so the class societies require moving the house forward.to get the blind spot down to a couple of hundred meters.

 

And I wasn't really thinking when I responded to "Amazed", because midships or aft, the roll is the same, so it really doesn't matter where the house is for crew comfort, though I personally despise the "stem winders" that have the house right forward, as the pitching and "slamming" of the seas on the flared bow makes for some uncomfortable rides.

 

All ships will have either straps to hold loose furniture to the bulkhead or down to the deck, unlike cruise ships, which as you say shows how the two types of ships vary in their motion and the areas/weather they operate in.

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We have been active cruisers since the 70s and have spent over 1200 days on cruise ships (a pittance compared to chengp75 :). Our voyages have taken us all over the world except to Antarctica. On all that cruising there was only one day (about a 12 hour period) when I can honestly say it was uncomfortable to be on the ship...much less walk, That was when the Meridian (a Celebrity ship) ran right into Hurricane Bob on the way to Bermuda (from NYC). Seas likely topped 45 feet (nobody was measuring) and the winds were around 100 knots (this...only for a couple of hours). Our ship was old and had a deep V hull....and rode the seas rather well except for a few rogue waves that hit us at a bad angle. A few times we must have rolled around 30 degrees...and at one point the large Roulette wheel flew off its spindle and table...rolled across the casino and crashed through the glass doors (nobody was hurt). As much as I love being on ships,, and even enjoy rough seas...this is not an experience we would want to repeat.

 

Not too many years ago we were on the Prinsendam....a few weeks after she got slammed by a rogue wave off of the Northern part of the UK (I think it was off of Scotland). The impact was so violent that the ole ship flexed (torsion) to such a degree that many large windows on the ship cracked! Even weeks later (when we were on that same ship) there was still one large window in the Crows Nest that had been replaced with plywood...since the replacement window had to be special ordered and custom made (the Prinsendam is an older ship).

 

Folks that have spent enough time at sea understand what it means to be in truly rough waters. We have been on many cruises when we hear other passengers complaining about the ship moving...when the amount of movement is hardly enough to disturb a glass of water. If the pools are full, the hot tubs working, and passengers walking...it is not that rough :). When you see 4 foot waves in a ship's pool (this happened to us once) then the ship is starting to rock and roll.

 

Hank

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First off, a cargo ship is much less capital intensive than a cruise ship. Even container ships as large or larger than the largest cruise ships cost a fraction of the cost.

 

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For a cargo ship, crew accommodation is the last consideration when designing the ship.

 

I'm quite sure you won't find cubicles in The Netherlands anywhere while Americans seem to be OK working in them, so this might be a cultural difference. But it does amaze me that highly ranked, highly educated, very experienced officers who probably get paid accordingly are OK with sleeping on the couch because some designer didn't think of the difference between pitch and roll making the couch a better option than the bed. Your car which you can only use so many months per year might be more expensive than a decent stabilized bed or cabin.

 

Then again, I wonder why cruise ships have gyroscopes for pool tables while the most expensive suites don't have stabilized beds. That would be at least a gimmick to brag about.

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