Royal Caribbean banning emotional support animals

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#61
New Hampshire
6,447 Posts
Joined Oct 2005
Originally posted by dkjretired
And therein lies the problem. You, me or the Cruise line do not know whether that dog is a legitimate Service Dog. The cruise line follows the ADA and the ADA does not allow any host or service provider to ask for documentation as to whether the dog is a service animal. They are allowed to ask two questions, 1. Is this a service animal and 2. what task does it provide. Additionally, in the US there is no such thing as registering service dogs that is official and the dogs under most circumstances do not need be on a leash or wear a vest. Below is a link from the US justice Dept which is a pretty good explanation of the law under the ADA. Also, service dogs and support dogs are two totally different things. There are many cases where there are small dogs that are there to detect diabetes but usually that dog will be carried by the owner so it can detect the breath.

One other thing which you will see in the directive, if you have an allergy due to the dog, guess what, you lose...

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
That stupid law is absolutely rampant with allowing fraud!
There should be viable certification & heavy fines for those who commit fraud. You're in law enforcement, I think you know what I mean. If you're a business owner, you can't really ask any pertinent proof of authenticity. I'd love to know what leftist snowflakes wrote the law & fire the lot of them. The laws NEED to be rewritten to weed out the fraudsters who make up probably over 75% of the supposed service/emotional animals out there. Support "Peacock", indeed!(remember that one from several months ago?)
#62
Pa, NJ
19,716 Posts
Joined Apr 2000
Originally posted by keithm
That stupid law is absolutely rampant with allowing fraud!
There should be viable certification & heavy fines for those who commit fraud. You're in law enforcement, I think you know what I mean. If you're a business owner, you can't really ask any pertinent proof of authenticity. I'd love to know what leftist snowflakes wrote the law & fire the lot of them. The laws NEED to be rewritten to weed out the fraudsters who make up probably over 75% of the supposed service/emotional animals out there. Support "Peacock", indeed!(remember that one from several months ago?)
I only provided the link which says it is illegal to ask for documentation, I may not agree with it and do see it but that’s the law. There are loads of videos on you tube and very often when people ask for documentation and refuse entry, they are visited within a few days by the feds. Problem with fraud is how do you prove it when you can’t ask for the proof.
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Don

Sgt Michael Johnson
Vermont State Police
EOW 6/15/03
#63
planning our next adventure
4,695 Posts
Joined Dec 2007
I actually know someone with an emotional support dog. This person has PTSD & the dog allows this person to live a much more fulfilled 'normal' life than would otherwise be possible. They have certification from a Dr. (a real Dr., not something they paid for on the internet) the dog wears a vest (that clearly spells out that he is an emotional support dog, not the orange type) They could have easily faked a true support dog vest, but don't, & so they stand the risk of overly aggressive people asking questions. Unless they are walking, he just lies quietly at the owner's feet.

I completely agree that the dogs in strollers, dogs eating off of plates, not using the proper places to relieve themselves is out of control, but before you choose to "make a stand" & try to shame someone who has one of these dogs working with them, just remember you may be confronting a war veteran, a former police officer, or firefighter with PTSD who needs the support of that animal... & no, that does not, in my opinion, make them a snowflake.
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#64
Arizona
11,946 Posts
Joined Oct 2010
Originally posted by cruise kitty
I actually know someone with an emotional support dog. This person has PTSD & the dog allows this person to live a much more fulfilled 'normal' life than would otherwise be possible. They have certification from a Dr. (a real Dr., not something they paid for on the internet) the dog wears a vest (that clearly spells out that he is an emotional support dog, not the orange type) They could have easily faked a true support dog vest, but don't, & so they stand the risk of overly aggressive people asking questions. Unless they are walking, he just lies quietly at the owner's feet.

I completely agree that the dogs in strollers, dogs eating off of plates, not using the proper places to relieve themselves is out of control, but before you choose to "make a stand" & try to shame someone who has one of these dogs working with them, just remember you may be confronting a war veteran, a former police officer, or firefighter with PTSD who needs the support of that animal... & no, that does not, in my opinion, make them a snowflake.
You really need to tell this person that his/her dog is a service dog, as PTSD is a covered disability under the ADA rules and regulations (see below) and this person needs to throw away the emotional support dog vest away, because emotional support dogs are not allowed in public buildings (only allowed in airplanes and housing), whereas service dogs are allowed everywhere.

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability.


https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
#65
New Hampshire
6,447 Posts
Joined Oct 2005
Originally posted by dkjretired
I only provided the link which says it is illegal to ask for documentation, I may not agree with it and do see it but that’s the law. There are loads of videos on you tube and very often when people ask for documentation and refuse entry, they are visited within a few days by the feds. Problem with fraud is how do you prove it when you can’t ask for the proof.
That's why I can't stand the officious govt. idiots who think they know better than all of the rest of us. Had they thought it out to require proper documentation without having to know about the "disability", it would have made this a moot point. As it is now, it almost "purposely" makes it way too easy to commit fraud. I'm glad that at least some states are starting to punish those who skirt the law. There's also talk about revamping the ADA law to weed out the fakers out there. It amazes me that you can go online & get these fake service vests,often with an attorney's name attached to the web page telling you that no one can prove you're committing fraud.
#66
New Hampshire
6,447 Posts
Joined Oct 2005
Originally posted by NLH Arizona
There is no such thing as written proof of a service dog and it is illegal to ask for any written proof. One can ask two questions: Is this a service dog? and What task does it perform?
You're right there is no written proof, but there damn well should be & I'm glad that some states are finally starting to do something about it. It is ONLY illegal for a business owner to demand written proof. As a private citizen I can ask any question I choose. If the person I ask becomes confrontational, that is always a good sign of a fake. Yes, I will & have shamed those who commit fraud. Have you ever had to help separate a dog fight, because a fake service dog went in a store & attacked a service dog. It happened to 2 friends. The owner of the fake service dog wound up paying for the injuries to her service dog & herself.
#67
Pa, NJ
19,716 Posts
Joined Apr 2000
Originally posted by keithm
You're right there is no written proof, but there damn well should be & I'm glad that some states are finally starting to do something about it. It is ONLY illegal for a business owner to demand written proof. As a private citizen I can ask any question I choose. If the person I ask becomes confrontational, that is always a good sign of a fake. Yes, I will & have shamed those who commit fraud. Have you ever had to help separate a dog fight, because a fake service dog went in a store & attacked a service dog. It happened to 2 friends. The owner of the fake service dog wound up paying for the injuries to her service dog & herself.
Two points regarding your posts.

1. I have read that the reason they do not require ID is because of the Hippa laws in the US. Don't know for certain.

2. Any person who you may confront is under no obligation to answer any of your questions. If it was me and you approached me I would just ignore you. Problem is I think some people come out with their fake dogs and don't check to see what the law actually says, their just dumb, its the informed person that can get by with the fake.
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Don

Sgt Michael Johnson
Vermont State Police
EOW 6/15/03
#68
67 Posts
Joined May 2006
Originally posted by Silkroad
Thank you for your response. I see the usefulness of a trained service dog for someone whose diabetes is so severe that he wouldn’t be able to live alone otherwise. However, that person probably wouldn’t feel up to traveling, especially if he also requires renal dialysis.

I queried my diabetic friends & family last night. They prefer being able to live their lives as normally as possible, and two travel quite frequently for both work and holidays. So, no they don’t want service dogs. They’ve eagerly awaited non-invasive glucose monitoring devices, at least one of which was approved by the FDA last year. The new devices have pros and cons, but some diabetics do use them successfully.
Lows for some people with T1 come on very fast, with little warning. By the time the person could register that they're low, their cognitive function can be affected which delays treatment and leads to a potentially dangerous situation. Your friends sound like they aren't in this camp, which is great for them - but that's not the case for everyone. For those people, the dogs are an important part of being able to live a normal life. For parents of young children, the dogs are a godsend, allowing everyone to sleep better at night. I've been there, done that, got the kid with T1 diabetes and an insulin pump to prove it.
#69
Arizona
11,946 Posts
Joined Oct 2010
Originally posted by keithm
You're right there is no written proof, but there damn well should be & I'm glad that some states are finally starting to do something about it. It is ONLY illegal for a business owner to demand written proof. As a private citizen I can ask any question I choose. If the person I ask becomes confrontational, that is always a good sign of a fake. Yes, I will & have shamed those who commit fraud. Have you ever had to help separate a dog fight, because a fake service dog went in a store & attacked a service dog. It happened to 2 friends. The owner of the fake service dog wound up paying for the injuries to her service dog & herself.
I agree, there should be some sort of registration; ala, handicap license plates, but if you talk with any of the service dog organizations, many don't want this, because they feel (which I don't quite understand) is that the privacy of the person with the dog is at risk.

One of my friends took his dog, Katie, on her first airline trip and they said they will never do it again, because of the untrained emotional support dogs and their behavior, which is so unfortunate that he will never fly again.

No, I've never had to separate a fight between a service dog (who are trained not to fight back) and an emotional support dog, but I don't think it is up to individuals to interrogate people with dogs, since one wouldn't know who has a true service dog and an emotional support or faker dog. It should be left up to the authorities. What we can do is write letters to our local, state and national governments and ask them to do something about the fakers and ask for a national service dog registration.
#70
Arizona
11,946 Posts
Joined Oct 2010
Originally posted by dkjretired
Two points regarding your posts.

1. I have read that the reason they do not require ID is because of the Hippa laws in the US. Don't know for certain.
If there can be handicap license plates, which require documentation, it shouldn't be an issue for service dogs.
#71
Shalimar FL
5,754 Posts
Joined Jan 2008
Before we go around the bend on officious govt idiots should require documents and thinking we can intervene and ask questions, it is the people cheating that are the issue. If they are going to get service vests, they are going to get a fake document. They are the problem not the program. And confronting, or asking questions? That’s all a disabled person needs is us playing investigator.Kind of like the current situation where neighbors are calling 911 because a black fireman was going door to door checking the neighborhood.

And what happens if they ignore you, which is what I’d do, or not respond the way you think they should? Nothing. You are going to embarrass or harass the legit person and you aren’t going to shame the perpetrator. The lady with the lap dog or in the carriage or barking pet doesnt care. She knows everyone knows she’s faking it.

When I saw the pet in the restaurant, and I started to get upset, my wife reminded me, that is what the lady wants, so sit back and enjoy our situation and ignore her idiocy. The only ones really being inconvenienced is the waitstaff and that’s the decison of the restaurant/company/Cruise Line.

I think I’ve taken “Don Quiote” to heart more and have quit jousting windmills. I remember when Don Q’s family wanted to lock him away and sang “We Are Only Thinking Of Him!”. Great reminder.....for me.

Den
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#72
Pa, NJ
19,716 Posts
Joined Apr 2000
As I said earlier there are a lot if videos on this subject and the ignorance of store keepers, police, owners of dogs and just people confronting dogs legitimate or not. Would anyone get arrested because you saw an actual service dog and didn’t want to enter the establishment. Check the videos.
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Don

Sgt Michael Johnson
Vermont State Police
EOW 6/15/03
#73
1,506 Posts
Joined May 2011
Originally posted by cruisetek
Lows for some people with T1 come on very fast, with little warning. By the time the person could register that they're low, their cognitive function can be affected which delays treatment and leads to a potentially dangerous situation. Your friends sound like they aren't in this camp, which is great for them - but that's not the case for everyone. For those people, the dogs are an important part of being able to live a normal life. For parents of young children, the dogs are a godsend, allowing everyone to sleep better at night. I've been there, done that, got the kid with T1 diabetes and an insulin pump to prove it.
Thank you. That’s good to know. You’re right. I haven’t personally known anyone whose lows came that fast. That sounds like a nightmare for parents!
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#74
Canada
1,702 Posts
Joined Jul 2013
Originally posted by keithm
As a private citizen I can ask any question I choose. If the person I ask becomes confrontational, that is always a good sign of a fake. Yes, I will & have shamed those who commit fraud.
So, in your grand omniscience you have an infallible knowledge of exactly who is or who is not a fraud. You can tell at a glance with 100% accuracy that a dog is not there because his person has diabetes, epilepsy, or PTSD. And only a fraudster would become upset with some nosy, confrontational stranger who has no business demanding answers to anything, let alone something as deeply personal as their medical history? You're willing to confront anyone with a dog, because in YOUR opinion they are a fake? Sorry, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. And the harassment you admit to is not right.

I truly hope you meet my DDs BIL and his dog one day. His dog has been a godsend, as he has suffered from PTSD after being injured by an IED in Afghanistan years ago. On a bad day, if you confronted him in such an intrusive manner, you would likely find yourself staring up at him from the floor. On a good day, especially if the dog was on his toes, he'd probably just ask for security or cops to charge you with harassment and haul you away.
#75
Chicago suburbs
6,032 Posts
Joined Dec 2005
I am so happy the cruise lines are taking the stand against emotional support dogs. First of all, please know I have nothing against service animals. They should be able to go just about anywhere. Support animals are a different story. It's not that I don't believe they can help some people handle situations. But there is so much abuse and where does it end?? There are a number of programs which use horses and horseback riding to work with emotionally challenged individuals. Should people be able to bring their emotional support horse onboard? Or what about emotional support peacocks, like that dolt on an airplane tried to bring? Or maybe emotional support pigs, or emotional support monkeys? Where would it end?!

And finally, I have a number of people in my family with psychological issues including panic attacks, depression, severe anxiety, and more, so I do not say this lightly or uncaring. But if you are so unstable that you must have an emotional support animal with you in order to travel, then perhaps your issues are not enough under control that you should be traveling at all. (again, I am not talking about service animals!)
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#76
New Hampshire
6,447 Posts
Joined Oct 2005
Originally posted by NLH Arizona
I agree, there should be some sort of registration; ala, handicap license plates, but if you talk with any of the service dog organizations, many don't want this, because they feel (which I don't quite understand) is that the privacy of the person with the dog is at risk.

One of my friends took his dog, Katie, on her first airline trip and they said they will never do it again, because of the untrained emotional support dogs and their behavior, which is so unfortunate that he will never fly again.

No, I've never had to separate a fight between a service dog (who are trained not to fight back) and an emotional support dog, but I don't think it is up to individuals to interrogate people with dogs, since one wouldn't know who has a true service dog and an emotional support or faker dog. It should be left up to the authorities. What we can do is write letters to our local, state and national governments and ask them to do something about the fakers and ask for a national service dog registration.
The fight by the way was between a service dog & a large Pitbull mix. The service dog nearly had to get put down. The cost to the owner with the Phony "service" dog amounted to well over $100K between medical bills & pain & suffering law suit.. I feel you are absolutely correct in writing to govt. officials about setting up a legit service dog registration. States are at least starting to take action on this, as it should be. Banning emotional support animals, or at least caging them on airlines would be a great step.
#77
New Hampshire
6,447 Posts
Joined Oct 2005
Originally posted by Denny01
Before we go around the bend on officious govt idiots should require documents and thinking we can intervene and ask questions, it is the people cheating that are the issue. If they are going to get service vests, they are going to get a fake document. They are the problem not the program. And confronting, or asking questions? That’s all a disabled person needs is us playing investigator.Kind of like the current situation where neighbors are calling 911 because a black fireman was going door to door checking the neighborhood.

And what happens if they ignore you, which is what I’d do, or not respond the way you think they should? Nothing. You are going to embarrass or harass the legit person and you aren’t going to shame the perpetrator. The lady with the lap dog or in the carriage or barking pet doesnt care. She knows everyone knows she’s faking it.

When I saw the pet in the restaurant, and I started to get upset, my wife reminded me, that is what the lady wants, so sit back and enjoy our situation and ignore her idiocy. The only ones really being inconvenienced is the waitstaff and that’s the decison of the restaurant/company/Cruise Line.

I think I’ve taken “Don Quiote” to heart more and have quit jousting windmills. I remember when Don Q’s family wanted to lock him away and sang “We Are Only Thinking Of Him!”. Great reminder.....for me.

Den
I'm in the food industry, so having "pets" around food is NOT a good thing. Yes, I've done the pic snap & "fake" reporting to the police as well as the $2000 fine & 6 mo. in jail for fraud. Hate to say, every time I did it, it worked. It's easy to spot the fake. A service animal is well trained, the fakes obviously are not.
#78
New Hampshire
6,447 Posts
Joined Oct 2005
Originally posted by dkjretired
As I said earlier there are a lot if videos on this subject and the ignorance of store keepers, police, owners of dogs and just people confronting dogs legitimate or not. Would anyone get arrested because you saw an actual service dog and didn’t want to enter the establishment. Check the videos.
There's a pub in Woodstock, VT that has a sign on the door simply saying that service dogs are allowed but that emotional pets are not. It goes into pretty good detail differentiating the 2. I asked the mgr. about it & he said it works fine. He said the main problem was dealing with out of town tourists who insist on bring their pets in. He calls the police & they take care of the problem. I don't remember the name of the place, but it's on the same side as the Woodstock Inn.
#79
The Great State of Texas
28 Posts
Joined Oct 2017
Great move RCCL!! Hopefully the airlines follow and fast. People are definitely abusing and making a complete mockery of a real need for a small few. I’m sure no one has a problem with a person that has a disability and requires a trained dog. I think it was a good decision
#80
We live on a small lake in rural Nebr.
7,905 Posts
Joined Oct 2003
We have been on a cruise with a true service animal (blind owner) and another with perhaps 6-8 seeing eye dogs; their owners were in a group, with family members, All the dogs were impeccably behaved; there was an area on the promenade deck--large box with wood mulch--on each cruise for the animals' sanitary habits.

I have seen several 'support' dogs as well. One at least was obviously just a pet and was allowed to run all over different venues, much like any small pet dog. I wasn't particularly bothered, but I could see some people were.

I see no reason support animals shouldn't be registered, licensed and actually trained, as true service dogs are. I can also see no reason anyone who truly needed one wouldn't be glad to go through the process. Refusing to do this, or getting some fake certification should disallow the pet.

I know that there are many people who do have small service animals for legitimate reasons, such as seizure detection. It's too bad that the selfish who just want to take their pet along manage to muddy the waters for the true need.
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