Any Non-cruise line tours that meet OFAC people to people guidelines?

Yes, I know that everyone has been booking tours with local operators and checking "Support for the Cuban People" on their declaration, but are their actually any local non-cruiseline operated tours that qualify under the new OFAC "People to People" guidelines?

People to People is actually an "educational exchange" and need not even be a "tour".

An essential requirement for compliance is that

I have used Havanajourneys twice & they are compliant. City day tour is $100 for 2 or 3 people.

I have used Havanajourneys twice & they are compliant. City day tour is $100 for 2 or 3 people.

Maybe they are compliant with "support for the Cuban people", but they certainly are not ok for P2P.

are their actually any local non-cruiseline operated tours that qualify under the new OFAC "People to People" guidelines?

An agency such as the cruise line or Insight or Road Scholar (non-Cuban entities) applies to OFAC for a specific license and shows OFAC an itinerary that fulfills the specifications for the People to People group OFAC category.

It is doubtful that any "local" agency or local non-cruiseline operated tour, i.e. a tour group run by a Cuban, would be applying in this way for a specific license.

Do some further research to understand the difference between a specific license and a general license.

I have used Havanajourneys twice & they are compliant. City day tour is $100 for 2 or 3 people.

Maybe they are compliant with "support for the Cuban people", but they certainly are not ok for P2P.

Compliant is a misleading term in the case of this tour agency.

This tour agency is as compliant as any DIY individual traveler departing the U.S. who is asked to choose a reason for travel.

The OFAC categories they list on their site are for a general license, just as any individual would apply for. Applying for a general license consists of attesting (saying, by checking a box on a form) that you think what you plan to do falls into the category you choose, nothing more.

The agency will not be there at your side if you should ever be audited, as apparently would a tour company who has had their itinerary previously scrutinized by OFAC for a "specific" license.

You (the person who first mentioned this company. not rob) should inform yourself about the difference between a specific license and a general license, and the details of how each operates.

I have read what many tour companies offer, and if they hold a specific license, then it should be detailed. Insight for example say this "InsightCuba guests will receive a certification of travel to Cuba authorized by the U.S. Department of the Treasury general license." So they actually do not have a specific license. Road Scholar apparently rely on their former specific licence, however that would have been ok until November 2017, but not afterwards.

I have read all the cruise line's blurb on their tours/excursions and its mostly non compliant nonsense. Passenger assurance is only via the legal requirement that if ever you chose P2P on a cruise line excursion, it is the cruise line who carries the can if an OFAC audit were ever failed. The chance of OFAC auditing your travel is probably as good as you holidaying on the moon.

In most cases choosing "support for the Cuban people" is going to be the best option for passengers as if you were ever audited OFAC cannot require you to produce an itinerary of your activities, only your expenditure. (see https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/501.602 ). Those choosing P2P must furnish both.

It seems to me that the "Support for the Cuba People" guidelines is very broadly written and very subjective. If you ever were audited, it would likely be up to a specific auditor to determine whether what you did is compliant or not. Even the examples written on the OFAC website show a lot of grey area. If you ever were to be audited, it would probably be as a part of a political stunt (just as the change in the rules in November 2017 was), and as such they would probably not give you the benefit of the doubt in the case of a grey area. A friend of mine works on obtaining band visas for overseas musicians who want to play in the USA. One of the requirements is that they be "internationally recognized." What one agent will accept is completely different from what another agent will accept. There have been bands that have played 50+ international shows denied a visa while a different band that has only played a handful of international shows granted a visa. Once a determination has been made, it can't be appealled. I never would assume the US government, if you are audited, will just gloss over what you give them and give you the benefit of the doubt when politics might be involved.

It seems to me that the "Support for the Cuba People" guidelines is very broadly written and very subjective.

Many say that, but I disagree. The only matter for "interpretation" is what constitutes a compliant "activity".

In any case, under SFTCP OFAC can only audit your financial transactions, and not your activities. That being the case, you really only have to worry about the CRL, if you worry at all.

Many say that, but I disagree. The only matter for "interpretation" is what constitutes a compliant "activity".

In any case, under SFTCP OFAC can only audit your financial transactions, and not your activities. That being the case, you really only have to worry about the CRL, if you worry at all.

From the OFAC website:

20. What constitutes “support for the Cuban people” for generally authorized travel and other transactions?

This general license authorizes, subject to conditions, travel-related transactions and other transactions that are intended to provide support for the Cuban people, which include activities of recognized human rights organizations; independent organizations designed to promote a rapid, peaceful transition to democracy; and individuals and non-governmental organizations that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba. In accordance with the NSPM, OFAC is amending this general license to require that each traveler utilizing this authorization engage in a full-time schedule of activities that enhance contact with the Cuban people, support civil society in Cuba, or promote the Cuban people’s independence from Cuban authorities and that result in meaningful interactions with individuals in Cuba. OFAC is also amending this general license to exclude from the authorization certain direct financial transactions with entities and subentities identified on the State Department’s Cuba Restricted List. The traveler’s schedule of activities must not include free time or recreation in excess of that consistent with a full-time schedule in Cuba. For a complete description of what this general license authorizes and the restrictions that apply, see 31 CFR § 515.574.

The OFAC website gives some examples of what would constitute SFTCP, and they specifically state, for example, that a person staying in independently owned establishments, eating in local restaurants, spending time talking to locals, and spending time at the beach surfing would not qualify for SFTCP status as it is not consistent with a full time schedule required under the SFTCP license.

The OFAC website gives some examples of what would constitute SFTCP, and they specifically state, for example, that a person staying in independently owned establishments, eating in local restaurants, spending time talking to locals, and spending time at the beach surfing would not qualify for SFTCP status as it is not consistent with a full time schedule required under the SFTCP license.

Not quite as you suggest:

Example 1 to §515.574:

Because the individual's qualifying activities are not limited to staying in a room at a rented accommodation in a private Cuban residence (casa particular), eating at privately-owned Cuban restaurants (paladares), and shopping at privately owned stores run by self-employed Cubans (cuentapropista) and the traveler maintains a full-time schedule that enhances contact with the Cuban people, supports civil society in Cuba, and promotes the Cuban people's independence from Cuban authorities, and that results in meaningful interaction between the traveler and Cuban individuals, the individual's travel qualifies for the general license.

However, I agree that OFAC includes many helpful examples for travellers concerned about compliance.

Not quite as you suggest:

 

However, I agree that OFAC includes many helpful examples for travellers concerned about compliance.

So many posts about what box you must to check and all the many different "Expert Opinions" on what box to check, so paxs can be compliant to OFAC, on disembark in the various ports of Cuba, yet many replies seem to indicate, just throw a dart @ the Visa Box selection and you're good to go, some stating it's just gonna end up in a draw someplace that will just collect dust, and evidently disintegrate into the annuals of time.

If you want to be compliant, it's easy to follow the rules at OFAC. People who think OFAC regulations are confusing probably have not actually looked at them and rely on the misguided for their views.

If you do not want to be compliant, then tick any box.

Note however that it's about OFAC and has absolutely nothing to do with your visa to enter Cuba.

If you want to be compliant, it's easy to follow the rules at OFAC. People who think OFAC regulations are confusing probably have not actually looked at them and rely on the misguided for their views.

If you do not want to be compliant, then tick any box.

Note however that it's about OFAC and has absolutely nothing to do with your visa to enter Cuba.

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Oh, another question, who checks to make sure you're OFAC compliant, and are you aware of anyone being caught NOT being compliant, fined, arrested, and/or not allowed back on their cruise ship to return to the US?

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As I said, the visa has nothing to do with OFAC, so not sure what point you are making.

Embarking, you can tick the box that suits your travel, irrespective of cruise line, as it has no impact on disembarking in Cuba.

In Cuba, if you choose P2P you are theoretically locked in to an Educational activities program - I have not seen that what cruise lines offer is actually compliant, so I suspect if cruise lines can get away with non compliance, their passengers are not going to be bothered.

I have read RCI's FAQs for Cuba, and it is clear they do not understand OFAC.

Yes, I am aware of travellers being fined, but not recently as OFAC is not resourced to "police" individual travel.

As I see it, the USA has travel rules for going to Cuba and individuals can make up their own minds as to how they want to proceed.

Not quite as you suggest:

 

However, I agree that OFAC includes many helpful examples for travellers concerned about compliance.

No, what I suggested is that a schedule matters. You implied that it did not. It clearly does matter what you are actually doing, and if you are audited it is important to be able to prove your activities qualified under the SFTCP license. As the OFAC points out, spending time on the beach does not comply with the license, even if you spend most of your day "supporting the Cuban people."

No, what I suggested is that a schedule matters. You implied that it did not. It clearly does matter what you are actually doing, and if you are audited it is important to be able to prove your activities qualified under the SFTCP license. As the OFAC points out, spending time on the beach does not comply with the license, even if you spend most of your day "supporting the Cuban people."

I go by what OFAC publish in the CACR. OFAC can only require a record of your activities if you go under P2P, and cannot require them under SFCTP.

Furthermore, under SFTCP you are allowed "free time or recreation", so no problem going to the beach. Under P2P there is no mention of free time or recreation being available.

Oh, another question, who checks to make sure you're OFAC compliant, and are you aware of anyone being caught NOT being compliant, fined, arrested, and/or not allowed back on their cruise ship to return to the US?

 

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Short answer - no one checks to make sure you're compliant because no one cares. Certainly not the Cubans, so you are in no danger of being arrested. The ship doesn't care either. It's not like they have your affidavit handy and grill you on what you did in Cuba when you return to the ship.

Once you fill out the affidavit and hand it in at embarkation, it is filed away by the cruise line and never seen again. So, my suggestion is to treat Cuba as you would any other port and do what you want to do. We did a private tour, but only because we wanted to maximize our short time in Havana, not because I was worried about trying to meet OFAC requirements.

Short answer - no one checks to make sure you're compliant because no one cares. Certainly not the Cubans, so you are in no danger of being arrested. The ship doesn't care either. It's not like they have your affidavit handy and grill you on what you did in Cuba when you return to the ship.

 

Once you fill out the affidavit and hand it in at embarkation, it is filed away by the cruise line and never seen again. So, my suggestion is to treat Cuba as you would any other port and do what you want to do. We did a private tour, but only because we wanted to maximize our short time in Havana, not because I was worried about trying to meet OFAC requirements.

Thanks, really appreciate feedback from someone who actually has real world cruise experience to Cuba vs "Google Experience"

Thanks, really appreciate feedback from someone who actually has real world cruise experience to Cuba vs "Google Experience"

I learned the rules which governed my travels to Cuba from the USA and chose to abide by them. On returning to the USA from one particular trip I was interviewed by US Customs about the purpose of my travel. I'm not sure how many trips to Cuba are required before travellers understand the difference between what OFAC requires and what Cuba requires, although for me it was important to know before I went.

I always balance my detailed knowledge of OFAC with my real world experience of travelling to Cuba, so I can respond to posters with both theory and practice. What readers take away from that is up to them.

Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of an attitude of "no one checks to make sure you're compliant because no one cares,"

This is exact topic has been stressing me out. Carnival's language in their paperwork is really pushing "people to people" and in return that means they are "forcing" you to purchase their overpriced excursions. It really has me regretting we booked with them. At this rate I could've done a different tour to Cuba in which I could've stayed for a full week.

I'm preparing my group to argue to be able to do "support of the Cuban people" but possibly being forced to do "people to people" by Carnival staff. It really shouldn't be this difficult but I think Carnival is making it that way in their communications to their customers. I've noticed a theme that everyone struggling with how to meet the requirement are traveling with Carnival. I'm guessing NCL and RC aren't doing this. But I just got another email today stating :"All guests who booked their cruise on or after June 16, 2017 are required to participate in a group people-to-people authorized category of travel." Which pretty much leaves paying for the pricey excursion. And if that is the case this will be my last time cruising with them (if I don't just go ahead and cancel now).

Sorry if I seem upset...but if I had seen this prior to booking 7 people I would've chosen a different vacation or cruise line.

This is exact topic has been stressing me out....

All OFAC issues are covered at another site, while yours is specifically dealt with here: http://forums.debbiescaribbeanresortreviews.com/t/people-to-people-p2p-tours-and-the-cruise-line-spin/23741

IMHO only P2P is likely to cause concerns for any travellers to Cuba as this is the only one which can demand a full-time schedule of your activities, plus a record of your expenditure.

For the reasons outlined in the link SFTCP will generally be the easier option.

The bottom line is that cruise lines are indulging in misleading and deception practices, aside from not understanding what OFAC requires.

I go by what OFAC publish in the CACR. OFAC can only require a record of your activities if you go under P2P, and cannot require them under SFCTP.

Furthermore, under SFTCP you are allowed "free time or recreation", so no problem going to the beach. Under P2P there is no mention of free time or recreation being available.

I looked at your link and I still do not see anywhere that using the SFTCP prohibits the OFAC from asking you to furnish an itinerary should you be audited. Where does it state that?

Also, are we sure that the cruise lines store away the affidavits and don't forward them to the OFAC? I see that stated over and over here, but where did that info come from?

I looked at your link and I still do not see anywhere that using the SFTCP prohibits the OFAC from asking you to furnish an itinerary should you be audited. Where does it state that?

Also, are we sure that the cruise lines store away the affidavits and don't forward them to the OFAC? I see that stated over and over here, but where did that info come from?

First, the requirement to keep records lies with the holder rather than with OFAC. OFAC can audit at their discretion. Below info is from CACR:

Title 31: Money and Finance: Treasury

PART 501—REPORTING, PROCEDURES AND PENALTIES REGULATIONS

§501.601 Records and recordkeeping requirements.

Secondly, this covers what OFAC can demand:

§501.602 Reports to be furnished on demand.