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Changing airports in London ? Help please


1stItaly
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I think everything that needs to be said has been said. It’s probably all unnecessary anyway as hopefully she’ll make the flight. If not BA will get her there - she’s not going on the cruise the same day

 

Not quite, there's a key element of the EU regulations which is possibly quite important in this particular case, the following is an extract from the reference provided by host grandma

 

"Are you on a through ticket?

 

Your airline is only required to provide compensation if you are booked on a through ticket. This means you have a single ticket and one reservation reference for your entire journey. The cause of you missing your connection must also be within the airline’s control.

If you or your travel agent booked the flights separately, then you are not covered by these rules."

 

The key element being "The cause of you missing your connection must also be within the airline’s control." So if your inbound and outbound flights are on time, you may have a job arguing that an accident on the M25 was in the airlines control, even though they sold the ticket. Airlines are very good at evading responsibility even with EU regs.

 

 

On the plus side I have every reason to believe the op will actually make their connection, only extreme bad luck would stop it. When I checked the other day BA were indeed still offering an MIA-LHR LGW-BCN flight but it was made clear that the airport transfer was at the passengers own cost (and presumably by inference, risk).

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Not quite, there's a key element of the EU regulations which is possibly quite important in this particular case, the following is an extract from the reference provided by host grandma

 

"Are you on a through ticket?

 

Your airline is only required to provide compensation if you are booked on a through ticket. This means you have a single ticket and one reservation reference for your entire journey. The cause of you missing your connection must also be within the airline’s control.

If you or your travel agent booked the flights separately, then you are not covered by these rules."

 

The key element being "The cause of you missing your connection must also be within the airline’s control." So if your inbound and outbound flights are on time, you may have a job arguing that an accident on the M25 was in the airlines control, even though they sold the ticket. Airlines are very good at evading responsibility even with EU regs.

But that doesn't matter so far as reaccommodation on another flight is concerned. It might let the airline off the hook for paying cash compensation, but not for other oblgiations under 261/2004.

 

FWIW, the actual wording of the exception for cash compensation is "extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken", and the existence of such circumstances is for the airline to prove. That is actually significantly different from (and rather narrower than) "not within the airline's control", and the CJEU has tended increasingly to narrow the exception.

 

In any event, 261/2004 is not the only thing in play here. BA's Conditions of Carriage are also relevant, because they also stipulate legal obligations that BA is under - and they are therefore worth reading if anyone wants further comfort.

 

On the plus side I have every reason to believe the op will actually make their connection, only extreme bad luck would stop it. When I checked the other day BA were indeed still offering an MIA-LHR LGW-BCN flight but it was made clear that the airport transfer was at the passengers own cost (and presumably by inference, risk).
Cost: yes. Risk: no - see above.

 

These inter-airport connections have been sold by BA since time immemorial, and they will continue to be. The vast majority of these are completed with no problems, even with a 3:00 Minimum Connection Time. So, as I said, I think that some of the caution on this thread has been rather overdone. I'm also in the camp that wouldn't choose the inter-airport connection unless there were a very good reason for it.

 

But if that's what you've got, don't panic.

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Glad we finally got some resolution that BA is responsible, but isn't required to buy tickets on other carriers.
I would not draw that conclusion so quickly. The CAA in the UK threatened Ryanair with legal action when Ryanair was flatly refusing to re-route pax onto other airlines' flights, insisting that it would only provide alternative Ryanair flights. Ryanair then backed down.

 

That specific incident was in the context of cancelled flights (I think it was from the pilot rostering mishap), but as the applicability of the cash compensation regime to delayed flights comes from a CJEU decision applying the regime for cancelled flights to delayed flights, even though the text of the Regulation does not specify this, I would not be surprised if the CJEU were to decide that if an airline is legally obliged to re-route onto other airlines if a flight is cancelled then there is a similar obligation to do so in the event of a long delay.

 

As I have said, all of that is in the context of 261/2004, and BA's CoC have further provisions which will come into play.

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I knew that I had heard that carriers were expected to use any available flight, not necessarily just their own. Thanks for quoting chapter & verse!

 

While I have immense respect for Globaliser's knowledge of all things air-related, we still don't have anything that says definitively that if there is a delay (of unspecified length, at that) the airline must immediately purchase you a ticket on another airline. Lots of guessing and speculating, but nothing concrete that says if they can get you out, for ex, the following morning on one of their own flights, they still must buy you a ticket on airline X that will get you there tonight. And there's still the issue of WHY the delay has occurred, i.e. whether the airline could theoretically have done anything to mitigate the delay. Requirements are often very different if it's an airline issue, such as crew scheduling or maintenance, that are within the airline's control, vs. weather which is not.

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I knew that I had heard that carriers were expected to use any available flight, not necessarily just their own. Thanks for quoting chapter & verse!
While I have immense respect for Globaliser's knowledge of all things air-related, we still don't have anything that says definitively that if there is a delay (of unspecified length, at that) the airline must immediately purchase you a ticket on another airline. Lots of guessing and speculating, but nothing concrete that says if they can get you out, for ex, the following morning on one of their own flights, they still must buy you a ticket on airline X that will get you there tonight.
And I hope that what I've posted doesn't give the impression that the view of the CAA about those circumstances (which AFAIK has not been tested in the courts) will definitely apply in the rather different circumstances of the OP.

 

And there's still the issue of WHY the delay has occurred, i.e. whether the airline could theoretically have done anything to mitigate the delay. Requirements are often very different if it's an airline issue, such as crew scheduling or maintenance, that are within the airline's control, vs. weather which is not.
I find it hard to see how this could make a difference to the airline's legal obligation to reaccommodate the passenger on another flight. It certainly makes no difference at all to the airline's obligation under 261/2004 to care for the passenger during a delay: drinks, meals, hotel accommodation and transfers to/from that accommodation must be provided regardless of the reason for the delay. And the airline's contractual obligation in the event of a misconnect is still to get the passenger to their final destination. So it's hard to see why or how the airline can be obliged to do more if the misconnect was for reason A, but can be permitted to try less hard if the misconnect was for reason B. In any event, the commercial imperative to reaccommodate the passenger is the same in both cases: the airline won't want to be paying for food, drink and lodgings for any longer than necessary if there's a way of getting the passenger out.
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I find it hard to see how this could make a difference to the airline's legal obligation to reaccommodate the passenger on another flight. It certainly makes no difference at all to the airline's obligation under 261/2004 to care for the passenger during a delay: drinks, meals, hotel accommodation and transfers to/from that accommodation must be provided regardless of the reason for the delay.

 

Actually in the link posted earlier by the poster in question, there are additional links that discuss delays of various flight lengths in more detail. In those there is verbiage that address the fact that one shouldn't expect compensation if the cause of the delay is not within the control of the airline. Do they still ultimately need to get you where you're going? Yes. But the idea that compensation, or the lengths they need to go to in an effort to right the situation, are greater if the delay was within their own control and not something like weather that is completely out of their control.

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In my mind, if BA said that 3 or 4 hours is fine between connecting flights , then you don’t make it because of problems on the M25, BA are responsible for you missing your flight. When judging appropriate connection times they know that getting from Heathrow to Gatwick can easily be subject to delays.

That may not be the legal answer, but it feels right to me. If I was put in that position, that is how I would state my case.

 

 

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That may not be the legal answer, but it feels right to me.

 

But what feels right isn't going to help you!

 

BA's minimum connecting time on flights between LHR and LGW is 3hrs, this is (supposedly) to account for travel time between the airports so technically you could be stuffed if your flight arrived on time and yet you got to LGW late.

 

In dozens of connections of this kind I've never cut it anywhere close to this 3hrs, although I have only made flights by a matter of minutes due to M25 traffic on a much longer connection and I'd have missed them if I wasn't flying business class with First check-in privileges at LGW.

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How BA can suggest 3 hours as a connection time is beyond me. In essence, the actual time allowed, due to the cut off time on entering security at either airport is really only 2.5 hours. Given the time required to pass through Border Control and collect your baggage, you need to have a clear run round the M25 to have a hope of getting your flight, and we all know how likely that is!

 

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Actually in the link posted earlier by the poster in question, there are additional links that discuss delays of various flight lengths in more detail. In those there is verbiage that address the fact that one shouldn't expect compensation if the cause of the delay is not within the control of the airline. Do they still ultimately need to get you where you're going? Yes. But the idea that compensation, or the lengths they need to go to in an effort to right the situation, are greater if the delay was within their own control and not something like weather that is completely out of their control.
I think that there's some confusion between compensation as one concept; the duty to provide care in the form of food, drink, accommodation and transfers as another concept; and the obligation to reaccommodate on an alternative flight as a third.

 

The right to compensation - I often call it cash compensation to make clear what is being referred to - does depend on the length of the delay and the reasons for the delay. 261/2004 and the CJEU's judgments are clear on this. This is the subject of much discussion, hence the references that you have seen.

 

But as far as I can see, there is nothing in 261/2004 that makes the reasons for the delay affect the airline's other 261/2004 obligations. They are owed regardless. That is why, for example, during the disruption caused by the Icelandic volcanic eruption, airlines were obliged to accommodate and feed their passengers for the many days that they could not fly, even if they only paid the proverbial 50p for their flights.

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  • 1 month later...

We made it!!! Letting you all know we were a little late departing Miami, and the Customs line was VERY long, but we spoke to someone telling them we had connections thru Gatwick and the they sent us to a short line. Our driver was there waiting for us and we made it to Gatwick with time to spare. Thank you for all the good wishes and you can be sure I will check connections very carefully in the future.

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We made it!!! Letting you all know we were a little late departing Miami, and the Customs line was VERY long, but we spoke to someone telling them we had connections thru Gatwick and the they sent us to a short line. Our driver was there waiting for us and we made it to Gatwick with time to spare. Thank you for all the good wishes and you can be sure I will check connections very carefully in the future.

 

That's great news! And thanks for coming back to let us know. :D

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Letting you all know we were a little late departing Miami, and the Customs line was VERY long

 

Surprising! On dozens of entries into the U.K., and Heathrow specifically in the past few years I can't say I've ever seen any wait for customs, you definitely got unlucky there.

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Glad you made it, and thanks for letting us know.

Without being pedantic, are you sure the long queue was for customs, rather than Border Control (immigration)? I have never seen a queue for customs at any UK airport - it is just a walk through a sterile area.

 

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Surprising! On dozens of entries into the U.K., and Heathrow specifically in the past few years I can't say I've ever seen any wait for customs, you definitely got unlucky there.
I think we all know what the OP meant,not being a FF like some.
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I think we all know what the OP meant,not being a FF like some.

 

Words matter. That's why there are different words for different things. And customs and immigration have very practical differences around the world.

 

 

Why not Carnival - Crystal....they're both ships, who cares?

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Words matter. That's why there are different words for different things. And customs and immigration have very practical differences around the world.

 

 

Why not Carnival - Crystal....they're both ships, who cares?

No,just a futile attempt at condescension and sarcasm.I knew you would rally round,next,lol.
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