Greek Economy could affect travel plans

[TLCOhio]

The terrible events today are ...well i can not find words to describe them. On the other hand the event as presented by CNN,BBC, and FOX tv,along with some of the reports by press agencies, paint a false and very general picture of what,where ,and who did what over there.

From CC sister site TA.Not my words, just a post by a contributor Xaroula that I know to be true and agree.

 

THANKS for sharing and posting this added, interesting perspective! The media doesn't always give the "full story". It is a fast-breaking and quick-changing situation. The headlines can paint a picture of everyone striking and total chaos. There are serious economic problems in Greece, but that does not mean everything is destroyed, right now. Terry in Ohio

[hubofhockey]

THANKS for sharing and posting this added, interesting perspective! The media doesn't always give the "full story". It is a fast-breaking and quick-changing situation. The headlines can paint a picture of everyone striking and total chaos. There are serious economic problems in Greece, but that does not mean everything is destroyed, right now. Terry in Ohio

 

While I understand your point, I would not have felt comfortable touring Athens yesterday. But I hope and look forward to my first trip to Athens in a couple of months and leaving some tourist dollars there.

[TLCOhio]

This morning, the euro was dropping down towards $1.27 in value. In Greece, yesterday was a pretty bad day. I just looked at 29 different pictures showing the ugly clashes between protestors and police, fire bombs being thrown, tear gas aggressively used and even pro-Communist strikers blocking access to a cruise ship at the port. Many protestors were equipped with their own gas masks and were not shy in throwing things at police and buildings.

 

From Reuters within the hour, they have this headline: "Greek government ready to 'walk alone' on austerity" with these highlights: "Greece's government told parliament on Thursday there was no alternative to the deep budget cuts in its austerity bill and vowed to press ahead with it despite opposition from other parties and violent protests. Speaking to lawmakers a day after some 50,000 Greeks marched in Athens and a petrol bomb attack killed three workers in a bank, Finance Minister George Papaconstantinou made clear the government had no intention of backing down from its three-year plan to radically reform the country's broken economy. Shop owners were repairing broken windows on Thursday and plumes of smoke were still rising from burned-out garbage containers protesters had set on fire. While people in the streets denounced the deaths as a tragedy, nobody was in a mood to rein in the protests against government plans. Thanassis Nazaris, an elderly shop owner, said he expected protests to build after Greeks return from summer breaks and find they do not have enough money to live. 'Things will get worse. Wait till autumn, we will be devouring each other,' he said."

 

From a Wall Street Journal story within the hour, they have this headline: "Greek Lawmakers Begin Debate on Austerity Measures" with these highlights: "Greece's parliament on Thursday began debating a three-year, €30 billion ($38.46 billion) package of austerity measures and is expected to vote on the bill later in the day. The all-day debate follows a mass protest and general strike Wednesday against the measures, which erupted into violence leading to the deaths of three people in a firebomb attack on a Greek bank. Despite the opposition, Greece's Socialist government has vowed to press ahead with the austerity measures and accompanying reforms, saying that the country faces a stark choice between reform and bankruptcy. Late Wednesday, Greek President Karolos Papoulias warned that the country stood on the 'edge of the abyss' after violence rocked the capital, and appealed for solidarity in the face of the crisis."

 

You can see full story details at:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64525E20100506?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704370704575227662199012840.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTTopStories

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[TLCOhio]

While I understand your point, I would not have felt comfortable touring Athens yesterday. But I hope and look forward to my first trip to Athens in a couple of months and leaving some tourist dollars there.

 

Agree strongly after looking at the detailed pictures from yesterday that it would have been really, really bad to be in Athens during that chaos. Until you see the many different pictures, you don't realize how all of that tear gas and those various fires can make things so bad. When you see protestors with their own gas masks, you know this was not just a mild, little strike action. Both sides were serious in those "battles", leaving normal tourists in a very bad situation.

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[sunsetbeachgal]

TLC,

 

Thanks for your always helpful updates. Like other posters I wonder if the cruise lines are considering options if the safety problems persist. It is easy enough to skip Athens as a port stop, or substitute another port, but for folks like us who embark or disembark in Athens it is a another story. Waiting and hoping it gets better...:(

[numbersix]

Some of the comments here on CC just show that most people have absolutely no idea about other peoples lifestyles,just like others do not know much about you.The terrible events today are ...well i can not find words to describe them.

On the other hand the event as presented by CNN,BBC, and FOX tv,along with some of the reports by press agencies, paint a false and very general picture of what,where ,and who did what over there.

 

From CC sister site TA.Not my words, just a post by a contributor Xaroula that I know to be true and agree .

 

 

 

Manu:

 

I agree--too many people get their sole news from (increasingly) biased TV news sources like the ones you mentioned, and that's worrisome. For some, and particularly to those whose livlihood depends on copious amounts of good, serious, comprehensive news and information, TV news forms only a very few small pieces of the information mosaic, as it should.

 

Thanks for the update from Xaroula--interesting and helpful.

 

Kevin

[TLCOhio]

TLC, Thanks for your always helpful updates. Like other posters I wonder if the cruise lines are considering options if the safety problems persist. It is easy enough to skip Athens as a port stop, or substitute another port, but for folks like us who embark or disembark in Athens it is a another story. Waiting and hoping it gets better...:(

 

THANKS for the kind comments on the posts! YES, cruise lines can adjust on some port stops, but Athens is ATHENS!!!!! It is such a great, historic city that it is not like switching stops from Mykonos to Santorini.

 

Certain Greek Isles can be comparable for easy switching and adjusting schedules. Changing a few average port stops can be made without too much of a problem. BUT, if you are starting or ending your cruise in Athens with air flights involving that city, it gets super complicated for logistics. I'm just glad our summer plans are for Copenhagen and our cruise along the Norway Coast, fjords, above the Arctic Circle, etc. It is very unclear how all of these economic and strike situations will be playing out in the coming weeks and months. Nobody knows, nor can predict what exactly happens next week or next month in Athens.

 

Terry in Ohio

[Fblack]

There is one good thing occurring as a result of the Greek Economic issues. The Euro is very low. It will make travel to EU countries much more affordable for us in the U.S. The last time I was in Greece (late last year) the Euro was about 1.49. Today it's about 1.29. So a 200 Euro hotel room has dropped from about $300 to $258.

 

And some pundits on the business channels predict the Euro to kit 1.10 next year.

[TLCOhio]

There is one good thing occurring as a result of the Greek Economic issues. The Euro is very low. It will make travel to EU countries much more affordable for us in the U.S. The last time I was in Greece (late last year) the Euro was about 1.49. Today it's about 1.29. So a 200 Euro hotel room has dropped from about $300 to $258. And some pundits on the business channels predict the Euro to kit 1.10 next year.

 

Hate to mention this "good news" about the euro "bad news", but you are right. In July 2008, when we were last in Europe, the euro was around $1.58. This summer is looking much better on the exchange rates, so far.

 

From the Business Week/Bloomberg News within the past half hour, they have this headline: "Euro Falls Versus Dollar as Trichet Doesn’t Calm Greece Concern".

 

Here are the story highlights: "The euro slumped to its weakest level in almost 14 months against the dollar after European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet failed to ease investor concern that the Greek fiscal crisis will be contained. The euro slid below $1.27 for the first time since March 2009 as the ECB kept its main refinancing rate at a record low of 1 percent and Trichet said the bank didn’t discuss government bond purchases. Greece’s finance minister said the country doesn’t have the money to repay debt due this month. The Swiss franc touched the highest against the euro since the introduction of the common currency in 1999 on speculation the Swiss National Bank relaxed efforts to curb the currency’s rise. Europe’s fiscal crisis could threaten banks in Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland and the U.K. as the risk of contagion grows, Moody’s Investors Service said in a report today. “Each of these countries’ banking systems faces different challenges of different magnitudes, but warns that contagion risk could dilute these differences and impose very real, common threats on all of them,” Moody’s said in the report."

 

You can read the full story at:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-06/euro-falls-versus-dollar-as-trichet-doesn-t-calm-greece-concern.html

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[MANURULES]

Agree strongly after looking at the detailed pictures from yesterday that it would have been really, really bad to be in Athens during that chaos. Until you see the many different pictures, you don't realize how all of that tear gas and those various fires can make things so bad. When you see protestors with their own gas masks, you know this was not just a mild, little strike action. Both sides were serious in those "battles", leaving normal tourists in a very bad situation.

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

 

 

You are wright and wrong at the same time.Its very difficult to explain ,but believing ,or made to believe by a collection of photos or short zoomed in videos what was going on yesterday.

While you are correct this serious,its incorrect that this was not a simple strike action.

Let me clarify.

There were 3 different unions marching in Athens yesterday.

PAME which is affiliated with the Communist party -KKE- ( and 200 members of which ,broke into the Acropolis right around dawn the previous day to put up 2 banners).

GSEE the Pan Hellenic private sector employees union.

and ADEDY the public workers union.

Each one of them had a rally at a spot near the center ,other than Sydagma square.All 3 then marched peacefully towards the Parliament.

The 3 lines met at near Omonia square, and continued , single file towards Syndagma with the PAME leading,then GSEE, then ADEDY.I know for a fact that PAME was leading.

PAME (which has an almost military like organization) utilizes a human chain on both sides of its lines, so that no one that is not affiliated can enter or exit.This is always done because they are afraid of agent provocateurs trying to implicate them as trouble makers.

No chain used by GSEE

Like I said all was peaceful until GSEE reached the parliament square when suddenly 3 teams of what, every one says were young people jumped out the loosely formed line and attacked ,trying to enter the Parliament from 3 sides,the center, and both stair access points to the left and right.

The attack was very vicious and well organized with most participants wearing masks,bandannas over their faces and or motorcycle helmets.They used tens if not hundreds of fire bombs(Molotov cocktails) along with rocks,sticks and 2x4's.

PAME's head of the line was past Hadrian's gate and into Synggrou avenue now ,with its aft end just past Syndagma.

Other than these teams no one else participated in this.

The number of the masked attackers,is estimated at 500 - 1500 ,and this includes the separate team that burned the bank.

These are the usual suspects in Athens riots.They have been operating like that or at a lesser degree on all marches in Athens for decades.

Their actions of course this time were definitely unprecedented.

If you really know what to look for and are familiar with the topography,you can see when the cameras zoom out that there are two groups.

One loose and attacking,running ,etc,and a large group( the main marching group) in the background, trying to get out of the way and not really having anywhere to go.

The attackers are the usual,anti establishment,anti authority ,bunch of anarchists,that does not realy care about the issues.Their only aim has always been to create chaos.

Other than in front of the Parliament,the corner of Fillelinon str and Amalias ave (by the Anglican church-between Sydagma square and Hadrans arch), and the very beginning of Syngrou ave( where the masked youths attacked some government buildings while retreating)and the Bank on Stadiou str,everything else was quiet.

There were over 100000 people marching yesterday ,and only a small ,well organized bunch of thugs ,that has become a cancer of shorts in Athens participated in the atrocities.

I am not telling you that the whole country was not shut down yesterday as far as tourists are concerned anyway,But to think even for a minute that the City was in chaos,and all the marchers were participants to this madness ,as presented by the media is simply false.

The area affected was extremely small,and yes it included some areas that tourists visit.Syndagma,Hadrians Gate,and stadiou street.

You could be sitting in Plaka and not even know anything was going on.

[TLCOhio]

You are wright and wrong at the same time.Its very difficult to explain ,but believing ,or made to believe by a collection of photos or short zoomed in videos what was going on yesterday. While you are correct this serious,its incorrect that this was not a simple strike action. I am not telling you that the whole country was not shut down yesterday as far as tourists are concerned anyway,But to think even for a minute that the City was in chaos,and all the marchers were participants to this madness ,as presented by the media is simply false.

The area affected was extremely small,and yes it included some areas that tourists visit.Syndagma,Hadrians Gate,and stadiou street.

You could be sitting in Plaka and not even know anything was going on.

 

THANKS for the excellent and added details! Athens is a large, large city. One or two pictures don't sum up the totality of the whole situation. I looked at a much larger number to get a better sampling. You gave some very help background to help us better understand this challenging and evolving story.

 

Lawmakers just approved Greece's bailout package Thursday night, with 172 lawmakers out of 300 voting in favor of the measure. The euro dipped this morning to $1.265 and is now at $1.27.

 

CNN just reported: "The austerity plan includes cuts in the salaries of public-sector workers, including lawmakers; higher taxes on cigarettes, fuel, gambling and luxuries; an increase in the value-added tax consumers pay on purchases; and an increase in the retirement age for women in the public sector, Finance Minister George Papaconstantinou said. Two unions called on workers to meet Thursday at 6 p.m. in front of Parliament to protest the package of measures. Thousands of demonstrators were out on the streets Thursday as the vote was taking place, but the protest was largely peaceful, CNN's Diana Magnay reported from the scene."

 

Terry in Ohio

[Hlitner]

We have been looking at the various economic numbers of Greece and do not see how the new austerity bill plus bail-out will do much other then buy 2 or 3 years time. Greece has let their debt soar to near 120% of GDP and over 40% of their entire economy is dependent on governement money (for you Obama fans this is called Socialism). Even with the bailout, planned reductions in salaries and pensions, and tax increases, the Greek economy will not be able to handle this debt. The various strikes do nothing to solve anything other then further damage the economy. Most economists would agree that Greece will have to totally restructure their debt and economy, but with labor unions having so much power this will prove impossible without their help. For now, the labor unions seem to be content to only call for strikes and demonstrations which achieves nothing more then further reducing productivity. The real fear among many economists is that the Greek problem will quickly spread to Spain, Portugal, Ireland and perhaps Italy and result in a collapse of the European economy. Today it appears that Wall Street woke up to this possibility. And just think, the current US government wants us to adopt an economy similar to the basic European model. Lord have mercy!

 

My DW might have the best solution. She says we should spend our money before the government and inflations take it all! Time for more cruising :)

 

Hank

[TLCOhio]

We have been looking at the various economic numbers of Greece and do not see how the new austerity bill plus bail-out will do much other then buy 2 or 3 years time. And just think, the current US government wants us to adopt an economy similar to the basic European model. Lord have mercy!

My DW might have the best solution. She says we should spend our money before the government and inflations take it all! Time for more cruising :) Hank

 

I do like the "best solution" from your DW. They don't want us to get too political on these travel boards, but clearly it was a wild ride today with the stock market roller coaster and the sinking value of the euro. And now in the UK, their election today adds to the uncertain mix and piles up additional questions on who's in charge. Those UK elections will added to the stress on the financial systems. England has been piling up lots of debt. Greece clearly has not stopped its bleeding and solved these issues long-term.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[BenjElz]

Sorry I have not read everything thats been said in this thread, I'm about to book a cruise for mid june, and we're looking at the celebrity equinox east med that starts in rome, stoped in santorini, mykonos, athens etc.

 

Is this good or bad idea?

would you say its better to stay away from a greek cruise this year?

should we got for a royal caribbean italy cruise instead we are looking at?

 

thanks for any advice!

[BigGuy25]

While the protests have often turned ugly, it appears that the Greek people have a culture and tradition of letting people know where and when protests will take place. Here is a link to the US Embassy's office in Athens and their page giving each day's scheduled protests:

 

http://athens.usembassy.gov/demonstrations_update.html

 

I've posted this on a number of boards because I think it's a website that folks traveling to, or through, Athens will find useful.

[TLCOhio]

While the protests have often turned ugly, it appears that the Greek people have a culture and tradition of letting people know where and when protests will take place. Here is a link to the US Embassy's office in Athens and their page giving each day's scheduled protests:

http://athens.usembassy.gov/demonstrations_update.html

I've posted this on a number of boards because I think it's a website that folks traveling to, or through, Athens will find useful.

 

THANKS for the link! Since your cruise would not start or stop in Athens, your risk is much, much less. In a worse-case situation, your cruise line might have to adjust a port stop or two. Your cruise line will watch these situations very carefully. Most of the protests are focused at government sites and not as much at the key tourist places. Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[marp109]

we arrived this AM from JFK. If I hadn't read the news, I would not know that anything happened here. I'm as much a worrier as one can get and the city is peaceful and seems to be functioning normally. The only negative we've seen so far is garbage collectors are on strike so piles abound. Will try to post more when I haven't been up all night on a plane ad then toured new acropolis museum! Hope this helps allay some fears. If I'm not anxious, no one should be:rolleyes:

[TLCOhio]

we arrived this AM from JFK. If I hadn't read the news, I would not know that anything happened here. I'm as much a worrier as one can get and the city is peaceful and seems to be functioning normally. The only negative we've seen so far is garbage collectors are on strike so piles abound. Will try to post more when I haven't been up all night on a plane ad then toured new acropolis museum! Hope this helps allay some fears. If I'm not anxious, no one should be:rolleyes:

 

Glad you arrived safely and appreciate your update. In looking at the news stories from Greece this morning, things seem much calmer today. The biggest question centers on those whose cruises would start or finish in Athens. . . IF and only if there are more and/or bigger demonstrations. Greece has passed the big budget cuts and I think things will get calmer there as people move to start accepting "reality" about their self-inflicted fiscal mess. Most cruise lines can and do monitor things well and make port stop adjustments, if needed. Enjoy Seabourn!!! They are a great line with excellent service.

 

From the Kansas City Star today, they have this headline: "Greece’s debacle of debt offers lessons U.S. should heed" with these highlights: "Greece remains an exceptional example of what happens when fiscal discipline is abandoned. Over the last 10 years or so, pay for Greek public-sector workers doubled. Each year, workers got an extra two months pay. In all, half the country’s budget went for public employee pay and pensions. Finally, the government admitted its deficit wasn’t 3.7 percent of gross domestic product. The real number was closer to 13 percent."

 

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/05/06/1929868/greeces-debacle-of-debt-offers.html

 

THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[sunsetbeachgal]

As they say. "it's time to pay the piper". I hope the politicians in our country are paying heed :confused:

[Hlitner]

Sorry I have not read everything thats been said in this thread, I'm about to book a cruise for mid june, and we're looking at the celebrity equinox east med that starts in rome, stoped in santorini, mykonos, athens etc.

 

Is this good or bad idea?

would you say its better to stay away from a greek cruise this year?

should we got for a royal caribbean italy cruise instead we are looking at?

 

thanks for any advice!

 

I will take off my policital/economic hat and offer you advice based on a lot of cruise experience. We would have no problem taking a cruise that went to Greek Islands (Mykonos, Santorini, etc) this summer and we love those places. As to Athens, since it is simply a port stop, if there are continuing issues that make that stop a bad idea, the cruise line will adjust the itinerary even if it means a last minute decision to skip Athens. It is very unlikely that the demonstrations in Athens will be replicated on the Greek Islands where the atmosphere is a much more laid-back attitude. We personally would be more concerned if we had a cruise that embarked or disembarked from Pireaus since the possibilty of strikes will be a constant threat for the near future.

 

Hank

[bunnyette]

Tourism is becoming an important industry in Greece - if the tourists don't come then more people will be in trouble.

 

Athens is huge - while DIY is easy - this is where hiring a cab for the day might help as the drivers especially those mentioned on these boards will know what is going on and where.

 

I hope cruisers don't stay away in droves and encourage the cruiselines to stop there.

 

As one poster noted - it is a few anarchists who are creating lots of trouble for the mostly peaceful protests.

[iancal]

We were thinking of five weeks in Turkey and Greece in Sept. We will probably now switch to the UK since the GBP is also down in value. Greece can wait until May 11...hopefully by that time things will have settled down.

[stipmom]

I have a cruise that ends in Athens on a Friday. I have a driver picking us up and he said not to worry as he will be there no matter what. He said the big problem would be if customs strikes and we can not get off the ship. I leave for home on Sat. so I have a day to play with if necessary but I am concerned about not being able to get home on time.

[Hlitner]

Tourism is becoming an important industry in Greece - if the tourists don't come then more people will be in trouble.

 

Athens is huge - while DIY is easy - this is where hiring a cab for the day might help as the drivers especially those mentioned on these boards will know what is going on and where.

 

I hope cruisers don't stay away in droves and encourage the cruiselines to stop there.

 

As one poster noted - it is a few anarchists who are creating lots of trouble for the mostly peaceful protests.

 

We did see that post from Athens and have lots of respect for the law abiding Greeks who are frustrated with their situation. However, the issue for cruise passengers is not the anarchists who, at best, cause a problem in a small part of the city (unfortunately it is usually Syntagma Square). The problem for cruisers are general strikes which can shut down the port, the airport, the tourist sites, museums, etc. Until the stituation stabilizes one can expect more strikes. It is just this labor problem that drove some cruise lines away from Pireaus many years ago. Now, it is happening again. The Greek labor unions continue to be their own worst enemy.

 

Hank

[MANURULES]

We did see that post from Athens and have lots of respect for the law abiding Greeks who are frustrated with their situation. However, the issue for cruise passengers is not the anarchists who, at best, cause a problem in a small part of the city (unfortunately it is usually Syntagma Square). The problem for cruisers are general strikes which can shut down the port, the airport, the tourist sites, museums, etc. Until the stituation stabilizes one can expect more strikes. It is just this labor problem that drove some cruise lines away from Pireaus many years ago. Now, it is happening again. The Greek labor unions continue to be their own worst enemy.

 

Hank

 

 

You are absolutely correct.

Its not the riots ,if you want to called them that.

There is no real danger to tourists, cruisers or not on the ground.

The only one thing you have to worry about is,the ports/airports closing because of a strike.

Even though as time goes by,things should quiet down as far as strikes

are concerned ,there is no way of guaranteeing anything, unfortunately.

And this is very frustrating to one and all.

Its really a wait and see situation.