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HAL strategy wrong? Go upmarket, better than going down market?


HappyInVan
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I couldn't believe that HAL could be four stars (Marriot) for that price. I was thinking maybe three stars (Holiday Inn). Lo and behold, I was right.

 

I see. In other words you went in with a negative mindset and lo and behold you found it was as you'd expected.

 

BTW I'm more about value than price and FWIW find HAL to me a good value for the quality of service provided.

Edited by tcook052
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Nobody has ever lost any money under-estimating the taste of the American Public...

 

Thank goodness that the owners of the truly great cruise lines have such large egos and large pocketbooks they can continue to operate at a loss.

 

 

I'm not a marketing person. But, here's something to think about. Corporations tend to expand their brands when markets mature. Many brands allow a business to slice up the pie into smaller, more focused segments. General Motors and Ford snapped up a lot of brands during their hey day.

 

 

However, corporations have to rationalize their segmentation when profits are low. In the low end, the product has become a commodity. The emphasis is on cost and quality control. General Motors has been shedding brands for several years.

 

 

Should Carnival HQ be consolidating its brands? Does it make sense to have so many brands and so much capacity for the same market? What does it mean when you can't tell the difference in quality between Princess, RCL and NCL.

 

 

Some of the folks here say that there is no substantive difference between HAL, Celebrity and Princess!

 

 

On the other hand, Mini Cooper has found its niche and faithful followers. Should HAL serve a particular differentiated price point? Retain and refit the 'S' and 'R' class ships, and the Prinsendem. Hand the other ships over to Celebrity.

 

 

Luxury cruise lines with two/three ships can't make a profit. The overheads are too high, and the quality demanded is stringent. Executive cruise lines with six to eight ships can(?)

 

 

Are you willing to pay more for more, or less for less?

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Actually, I went in with my eyes open. And, it was a worse organization than I had expected.

 

Coulda fooled me as your previous comment seemed to indicate you were looking for it to be bad and with that mindset found things to support that preconcieved notion. That doesn't sound at all like an open mind never mind open eyes but that's not a flame, just my reading of your own words.

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Coulda fooled me as your previous comment seemed to indicate you were looking for it to be bad and with that mindset found things to support that preconcieved notion. That doesn't sound at all like an open mind never mind open eyes but that's not a flame, just my reading of your own words.

 

 

All I said was that I disagreed with my ex-travel agent about the category that HAL belongs to. She was very keen to get me to pay up.

 

 

I have also said that “There's nothing wrong with three stars. The problem is that they are unable to consistently deliver even that standard.”

 

 

I'm surprised that you didn't read that part. Were you reading my comments in a hurry?

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HappyInVan:

 

"Should HAL serve a particular differentiated price point? Retain and refit the 'S' and 'R' class ships, and the Prinsendem(sic)."

 

What a wonderful start that would be! Then they could buy up 750 to 1500 passenger ships (with verandas which is where I assume the profit is) that other lines don't want to bother with and have their own specialized market with no competition.

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You're joking, right?

 

Apple is the Chevrolet of the computer world.

Low price, mass produced, one size fits all.

 

They try to give away the IPhone in Asia, but nobody will take them - even for free.

 

 

Dont agree with you, Apple Computers are quality built and more expensive,

Best thing is there Hardware matches the software, no painfull issues at all

Have you seen the prices in Asia, They are like 4 x the price there, and they all buy them here in USA or even Canada.

We have the lowest prices in the world on Playstations/ Computers, ect even though they are built over there.

 

Have both PC's and Macs Pcs are great too but need more maintenance like a chevy. lol

Edited by wilsonqbc
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Should HAL serve a particular differentiated price point? Retain and refit the 'S' and 'R' class ships, and the Prinsendem. Hand the other ships over to Celebrity.

 

CCL isn't about to offer ships for sale to their primary rival competitor, RCI - and Celebrity isn't about to purchase outmoded tonnage from anyone when they've just taken delivery of the 3rd in a 5 ship Solstice-Class newbuild order.

The S-Class ships are rapidly approaching the ends of their primary lifecycles under the HAL flag - By 2014, when Statendam is 21 years old, CCL will likely have begun withdrawing them one by one to secondary careers under P&O Australia, IberoCruceros or even bareboat charters to someone like Thompson Cruises and onward to the scrappers in Alang...

...followed in due time by Prinsendam and the R-Class quartet.

By 2020, HAL will more than likely have just the 4 Vistas, the 2 Signatures and a couple of the proposed 110,000 ton/3000 passenger newbuilds. Perhaps a couple of the last R-Class ships will be remaining, but once those are finally gone by @ 2025, HAL will no longer have a ship appropriate for 100+ day World Cruises or 65-day Grand Voyages - All that will be left will be ships that can't make it across the Pacific without refueling as they were originally designed for 7 to 11 day Caribbean cruises out of Florida.

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Let's say you could sail the identical itinerary, at the same cabin price on Princess, NCL, Royal Caribbean, Celebrity and HAL. Which cruiseline would you choose and why?

Some of us may choose a ship based on a previous very pleasant experience. Others wants more -or less- "night life". Some people prefer a larger ship, others smaller. Some like certain types of activities or programs.

In other words, there are a myriad of reasons each individual chooses a particular cruiseline and ship. We always used to cruise on Carnival because they had larger OV cabins, however we began to feel somewhat out of place, based not just on our ages, but on the entire ambiance. Our first trip on Hal was pure chance, because it was an Alaskan Cruise via a tour company. We took our 19 and 20 year old children; our son was "bored silly", our daughter had a good time (she was asked out by two crew members), and we felt like we had found a "home".

Given any cruiseline, ship, itinerary, dinner, etc. there are a vast variety of reasons certain choices are made; then we evaluate those choices. Two people could share the exact same meal with one loving it and one hating it. Just as a quick example: I love lots of butter in my mashed potatoes, but my son-in-law will not eat anything made with butter.

So, what I am saying is that each cruiseline / ship develops its own "culture" and we are attracted to it -or not- by MANY reasons. What we liked yesterday, we may not like tomorrow, and it does not necessarily have anything to do with our age or any changes the cruiseline makes. Will I stop cruising with HAL if they raise prices? No, but I may cruise less frequently. Will I stop cruising with them if they eliminate Formal Night? No, although I always "dress" for dinner when we are cruising and I do enjoy having a chance to wear my "party clothes". Will I stop if there are more or less activities and programs? No because I participate in just what I want to do anyway. Just like everyone takes the same dinner menu that lists several choices for every course, and puts together an individual (and perhaps unique) dinner, we all can create an individual cruise that suits our individual "appetite". As far as attracting new cruisers goes, I would guess that "word of mouth" probably brings as many, if not more, than advertisements do!

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Oh my this is an interesting thread. I just got off the Eurodam and had such an experience that my hubby and I were trying to gather our thoughts to basically post a similar message.

 

We fell in love with HAL because they tote themselves as being "classic" and "traditional"... they're your grandparent's cruise line (skews an older crowd)... NOT a drunken frat party... .......

 

This last week on the Eurodam has proven that HAL is abandoning it's brand. DH stormed out of dinner one (smart casual) night to complain about a man that entered the dining room wearing cargo shorts, a margaritaville T shirt and flip flops. {I do not want to start a discussion here about dress code}. DH and I spoke in depth with 2 of the asst dining room managers as well as the head of guest relations on board, and ultimately the Hotel Manager.

We were basically told that this is what to expect now from HAL on the 7 day Caribbean itineraries. They have no choice. Rooms for last week were as low as $399. At a little over $50 per person per day - you get people on the ship that want a cheap quick get away, the beach, and all you can eat. They don't look at or care about the cruise line they are going to be on. They want their beach and food. The clientele are dictating the mood of the cruise.

The Hotel Manager told us that a few weeks ago they had a man walk into the dining room on formal night without a jacket or tie - they offered him a jacket - he said "get out of my way" - they asked him to change, take the jacket or go to the lido and he punched out the dining room manager. The HM said to my hubby and I "how far do we go, what lengths must we take to enforce the rules?"

And it wasn't just the dress code - loud music at both pools, drunk and all-around inconsiderate people, babies crawling on the floor in front of the bathroom.......

 

The staff have a meeting the week before they head to the Caribbean and remind everyone what they can expect for the next few months. They take a few deep breaths and head south - counting the days until they head back to Europe.

 

We were assured by multiple people on the staff - from every level (HM, bartender, dining room mgr, future cruise consultant....) that this does NOT exist on longer cruises or cruises in other areas of the world (except maybe a little in Alaska with rates dropping there too).

 

It's sad really.

 

 

BTW - Our next cruise (booked last week) will be to Hawaii.

Edited by VermeulT
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However the 'as you wish dining' was as They wish and service in the anytime MDR was slow and only equal to a midpriced chain lunch place on land. :( Azamara was crowded and worse! :eek:

 

Crowded and bad service on Azamara???? When was that? We had one of our best experiences ever on Quest.

Edited by Jade13
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I am finding that HAL has very high per diem rates compared to the other Mass Market lines. But, I am not comparing the Caribbean cruises. I am concerned we night not get what we are paying for if the service levels and food are going down.

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All I said was that I disagreed with my ex-travel agent about the category that HAL belongs to. She was very keen to get me to pay up.

 

 

I have also said that “There's nothing wrong with three stars. The problem is that they are unable to consistently deliver even that standard.”

 

 

I'm surprised that you didn't read that part. Were you reading my comments in a hurry?

 

You shouldn't be as I did read that part and all parts of your post and at a leisurely pace I might add. I stand by my previous comments.

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If cruising was an art museum, HAL would be the Metropolitan Museum of Art and Celebrity would be MOMA, both in Manhattan.

 

When you sell a cruise based on low price as the main consideration, then you get a ship full of people who book based solely on price and that ain't good.

 

You also have to look at passenger density and % of cabins that are suites to accurately place a ship in the cruise hierarchy.

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Interesting thread. I've been thinking for months on this particular subject.

 

I'm constantly reading times are a changing and cargo pants in the dining room stories etc.

 

Why can't HAL pull away from the pack? Why must they be lumped in with all the other lines?

 

Why not run a big ad campaign, elegant cruising, cruising like it used to be?

Nice commercials showing the teak decks, teak lounge chairs and people dressed up.

 

Just like Norwegian ran ads for freestyle dining and stating we don't tell you when to eat.

 

Why can't HAL run some ads promoting cruising, and we don't have hairy chest contests, and we dress for dinner.

 

I'm just baffled why any company would want to be lumped into the same as everybody else?

 

What's that saying? "If You're Not The Lead Dog The Scenery Never Changes"

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......

DH and I spoke in depth with 2 of the asst dining room managers as well as the head of guest relations on board, and ultimately the Hotel Manager.

 

We were basically told that this is what to expect now from HAL on the 7 day Caribbean itineraries. They have no choice. Rooms for last week were as low as $399. At a little over $50 per person per day - you get people on the ship that want a cheap quick get away, the beach, and all you can eat. They don't look at or care about the cruise line......

 

We were assured by multiple people on the staff - from every level (HM, bartender, dining room mgr, future cruise consultant....) that this does NOT exist on longer cruises or cruises in other areas of the world (except maybe a little in Alaska with rates dropping there too).

 

It's sad really.

 

 

BTW - Our next cruise (booked last week) will be to Hawaii.

 

You may be very disappointed on your next cruise too. We did a 31 day Hawaii/SP cruise on the Rotterdam in Sept-Oct. There was a lot of loud music in the Mix at night, cargo pants and t-shirts on casual nights and no jackets on formal night at late seating.

 

HAL and other lines who lower their prices to rock bottom to fill the ship will always this type of problem whether the cruise is 7 days or seven weeks.

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Why can't HAL pull away from the pack? Why must they be lumped in with all the other lines?

 

Why not run a big ad campaign, elegant cruising, cruising like it used to be?

Nice commercials showing the teak decks, teak lounge chairs and people dressed up.

 

Just like Norwegian ran ads for freestyle dining and stating we don't tell you when to eat.

 

Why can't HAL run some ads promoting cruising, and we don't have hairy chest contests, and we dress for dinner.

 

I'm just baffled why any company would want to be lumped into the same as everybody else?

 

CCL/HAL apparently believes just aren't enough people with the money and time to travel by ship who give a dam about such things...

...and many who do care simply don't spend enough in fares or onboard spending so CCL mustn't really care if they come back or not. Those of us who do care and do have the money to spend on higher fares for cruising aboard ships in good condition and with proper service will eventually tire of HAL and move to Cunard or Seabourn where CCL can pull more money from us for roughly the product we originally came to HAL for.

 

It's ironic that CCL rescued HAL from certain death 21 years ago when they purchased the line and implemented "Project Tiffany" by commissioning the S-Class ships - Yet Miami and Seattle have made decisions that continue to diminish that investment:

Adding an excess of new tonnage along with questionable "upgrades" and added staterooms to existing ships in recent years...

...which in many ways, contributed to the long-term decline of fares to fill those many berths - and therefore required a lowering of service levels as well as the postponement of maintenance on the older tonnage.

HAL's decision to invest in making the line more "Family Friendly" with a few steel and plastic boxes welded atop the old ships - which was never going to begin to compare with the appeal of rock-climbing walls, waterslides, ice cream parlors and cartoon characters for families with children.

CCL's purchase and reinvigoration of Cunard & Seabourn - effectively replacing HAL as CCL's Premium lines.

The incredible lack of any imagination or innovation in the Signature Class ships while the competition placed orders for the amazing new Solstice Class.

 

If HAL doesn't get the two new 3000 passenger ships in 2014 and 2016 right (which could either prove to be Too-large/Too-much-of-the-same or Too-little/Too-late) these could be the steps that make HAL as irrelevant as Oldsmobile.

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You're joking, right?

 

Apple is the Chevrolet of the computer world.

Low price, mass produced, one size fits all.

 

They try to give away the IPhone in Asia, but nobody will take them - even for free.

 

No, you're joking right? Apple is by no means a chevy....puh-lease! Apparently you missed a whole rash of such articles from this past summer and fall?

 

http://micgadget.com/8615/beijing-apple-store-closed-due-to-scalpers-reselling-iphone-4/

 

http://www.macworld.com/article/154349/2010/09/iphone4_china.html

 

http://gothamist.com/2010/09/23/why_chinese_people_are_lining_up_ou.php

 

Apple hoarding by Chinese tourists (aka, scalpers) was quite a widespread phenomena back a few months ago, even saw it myself locally here in DC. In fact many stores have put limits on the # of iPhones you can purchase in one day due to this black market stuff.

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CCL isn't about to offer ships for sale to their primary rival competitor, RCI - and Celebrity isn't about to purchase outmoded tonnage from anyone when they've just taken delivery of the 3rd in a 5 ship Solstice-Class newbuild order.

The S-Class ships are rapidly approaching the ends of their primary lifecycles under the HAL flag - By 2014, when Statendam is 21 years old, CCL will likely have begun withdrawing them one by one to secondary careers under P&O Australia, IberoCruceros or even bareboat charters to someone like Thompson Cruises and onward to the scrappers in Alang...

...followed in due time by Prinsendam and the R-Class quartet.

By 2020, HAL will more than likely have just the 4 Vistas, the 2 Signatures and a couple of the proposed 110,000 ton/3000 passenger newbuilds. Perhaps a couple of the last R-Class ships will be remaining, but once those are finally gone by @ 2025, HAL will no longer have a ship appropriate for 100+ day World Cruises or 65-day Grand Voyages - All that will be left will be ships that can't make it across the Pacific without refueling as they were originally designed for 7 to 11 day Caribbean cruises out of Florida.

 

Very depressing. :( But I'm afraid you're right.

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Crowded and bad service on Azamara???? When was that? We had one of our best experiences ever on Quest.

 

I booked the Quest after =X= bought it and before they set up the Azamara brand. Journey had been at sea for a few months, and Quest for 4 or 5 sailings. In the center of the MDR, the waiter could barely pass between tables and I had an awful time going to the mens room during the 2.5 hour dinner. (One of 4 in the MDR) The waiter was also the beverage person and very busy, without time for any of the nice touches of dining room service.

We ate in the specialty ding room one night which was 3 stars nicer. The beverage manager told me the ship had 3 times as many pax as when it was Rennaisance.

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Those of us who do care and do have the money to spend on higher fares for cruising aboard ships in good condition and with proper service will eventually tire of HAL and move to Cunard or Seabourn where CCL can pull more money from us for roughly the product we originally came to HAL for.

 

According to the HM - Cunard is facing the same issue as HAL (maybe not to the degree yet). Society at large is changing - and the cruise lines are feeling the effects.

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Those of us who do care and do have the money to spend on higher fares for cruising aboard ships in good condition and with proper service will eventually tire of HAL and move to Cunard or Seabourn where CCL can pull more money from us for roughly the product we originally came to HAL for.

 

Fully agree and indeed my wife and I are seriously researching Cunard, Seabourn, and Silversea to see if these lines meet our needs and desires. The advertised ambiance and varied itineraries look very appealing and we might just flip or at least try one of these lines for our next cruise.

Edited by Randyk47
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Folks,

 

 

I've been conned by HAL's promise of 'signature of excellence'. For the price I paid, I thought I was getting a bargain. Instead, I was outsmarted by HAL.

 

<snip>

 

Please, there's no need to flame each other. We're trying to help HAL.

 

It would be easier to take your last sentence more seriously if you hadn't written the first ones.

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Dont agree with you, Apple Computers are quality built and more expensive,

Best thing is there Hardware matches the software, no painfull issues at all

Have you seen the prices in Asia, They are like 4 x the price there, and they all buy them here in USA or even Canada.

We have the lowest prices in the world on Playstations/ Computers, ect even though they are built over there.

 

Have both PC's and Macs Pcs are great too but need more maintenance like a chevy. lol

 

Take the blinders off you are on a thread about cruise ships etc..

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The incredible lack of any imagination or innovation in the Signature Class ships while the competition placed orders for the amazing new Solstice Class.

.

 

I realized how behind the times HAL truly is after getting on a Celebrity S Class (Solstice Class) ship three weeks ago. We were looking for a short getaway but WOW. The Eclipse was gorgeous, including real grass on the open top deck, great library, running track on deck above the pool, and adults only enclosed solarium with heated pool. The staff was fantastic and food overall better than our last HAL cruise. The shows were really good and better than anything we have ever seen at sea. They even had an innovative Venetian Masquerade party starting in the lower atrium that guests could get involved in with dancing on all the corridors overlooking the atrium with the dancers even going up and down the glass elevators. The ship has a live tree hanging (or "floating") in the atrium. The art collection on the one ship is valued at (an inflated) 6.5 million.

 

Although it does not impact our cruise decision making making process, HAL's past passenger program offers virtually nothing unless you have over 200 days on HAL. There are so many people on Celebrity who keep coming back because of very good perks such as early morning drinks, special breakfast venue, and a (free) happy hour late in the afternoon in as little as after 4 cruises (usually after 10 cruises on a shorter cruise in a standard cabin).

 

Celebrity has overall short and repetitive (boring) itineraries and poor customer service off the ship which is why we are only really looking at these ships for Caribbean getaways.

 

Where is HAL going with it's ships?

Edited by Jade13
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