Not Allowed on HAL - Lady on Local Talk Show!

[PhoenixCruiser]

How are all you people so sure that a hospital issued certificate is merely a "souvenir" or "commemorative"? I didn't know we had so many public records experts on the CC board. There may or may not be a difference but if any of you would read the newspaper account, it said that she had been able to use it as proof to get a passport. I hardly think that would have been possible with a mere souvenir or commemoration.

 

So stop all this self righteous, holier than thou attitude. As per the facts, it's just as easy to assume that all this woman wanted was a pleasant birthday cruise with her family and that HAL screwed up. I'm guessing that if you were inexplicably denied passage, you'd be pretty upset too and a whole lot more understanding.

 

I know because I have a hospital issued certificate and a government issued certificate, one can easily see the differences.

 

It is NOT a self righteous, holier than thou attitude, it IS reality.

 

###

[Andiamo39]

I'd never be stupid enough to go without a passport so this is a non issue. You seem to be really upset about this. Are you the person that got turned away?

No, I am merely a person with a brain who refuses to condemn a person without knowing all the facts--especially when that person seems to be following all the STATED rules.

 

More importantly I am a person who is terrified by the kind of intolerance I seem to be reading time and again in this thread. It's just emblematic of our times, I guess. And, for the record, if the woman in question is indeed "anti-immigration" her politics couldn't more different than mine.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

How are all you people so sure that a hospital issued certificate is merely a "souvenir" or "commemorative"? I didn't know we had so many public records experts on the CC board. There may or may not be a difference but if any of you would read the newspaper account, it said that she had been able to use it as proof to get a passport. I hardly think that would have been possible with a mere souvenir or commemoration.

 

I also would like to know how you all are so certain this woman had an agenda? She was understandably upset after being denied passage so she took her cell phone and made a little video to use against HAL in her anticipated claim. And so what if she DID have an agenda--according to HAL's very own website she was totally complying with their policies and should have been allowed to board. Haven't any of you ever heard of the first amendment? How would you like to be denied passage due to your political beliefs.

 

PLEASE go look at this site from HAL.

 

http://www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-planning/PlanningAndAdvice.action?tabName=Cruise+Preparation&contentMenu=Essential+Documentation&contentSubMenu=Identification+%26+Passports

 

It specifically says a "birth certificate" or a copy of one is required. It says NOTHING about a government issued versus hospital issued certificate. Furthermore, the HAL site says on a closed circuit cruise stopping off in Panama, Belize, Costa Rica, etc, a birth certificate is acceptable in lieu of a passport. Not a government issued certificate, not a hospital issued certificate. Just plain old birth certificate.

 

So stop all this self righteous, holier than thou attitude. As per the facts, it's just as easy to assume that all this woman wanted was a pleasant birthday cruise with her family and that HAL screwed up. I'm guessing that if you were inexplicably denied passage, you'd be pretty upset too and a whole lot more understanding.

Perhaps you need to do some reading yourself before accusing others that they do not know what they are talking about..

Here's some reading to pass some time but I think you need to reread the very link you provided below.

 

U.S. citizens on closed-loop cruises: U.S. citizens on cruises in the Western Hemisphere that originate and terminate in the same U.S. port are not required to have a passport to sail, but will need proof of citizenship such as a passport card or an enhanced driver’s license (EDL). If a U.S. citizen does not have a passport, passport card or enhanced driver’s license, they may use as proof of citizenship an original or copy of a birth certificate, or certificate of naturalization along with a government-issued photo ID

http://www.hollandamerica.com/cruise-vacation-planning/PlanningAndAdvice.action?tabName=Cruise+Preparation&contentMenu=Essential+Documentation&contentSubMenu=Identification+%26+Passports

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis_pa_tw_2223.html

 

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1139/~/documents-needed-to-take-a-cruise

 

As Ruth stated a piece of paper from a hospital has never been a valid form of I.D. because it is NOT Government issued, even when my 94 year old Grandmother pass away in August 2001 she was born at home in a town of 100 people in Iowa and yet we found her County issued Birth certificate. Now granted it was issued many years after she was born I am guessing that states were required at one point to issue government birth certificates. She would have had to have this to apply for Social Sercruity because she did not drive. Maybe Ruth may know when this happened.

 

Plus this women admitted she had a Passport so why did she not bring it???

My next questions is why are you defending her actions?

[momatibm]

I went to this site http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis_pa_tw_2223.html

 

there is nothing there that says you can use anything other than a passport or a passport card if you go outside the US. Did I misread this????

[IRL_Joanie]

Ruth:

I don't know how old you are but guessing from your picture I'd say we're pretty close. You don't believe she used that birth certificate to get a passport? That's your evidence this lady had an agenda...your belief? You say she deliberatley CHOSE not to use her passport. How on earth would you know that? Maybe she lost it or forgot it or it expired. There are a million different explanations. Furthermore it's her RIGHT not to have to use it and that's according to HAL.

 

Judging from your smug, self-important response to my comments I would say you could use a little more stardust. Or maybe just some plain old fashion compassion.

NOW you have gone to Far!!!! To attack a Cruise Critic member who KNOWS what the Hades she is talking about and who has more knowledge in her pinkie than you have in your entire backside is beyond belief!!!!

 

You owe the RuthC a HUGE APOLOGY!!

 

How dare you come on here and personally attack her!!

 

The only smugness is coming from you in several of your respones to other CC members when they attempt to answer your questions. Then to come here and attack one of the nicest people on Cruise Critic??

 

I hope the hosts read your post to RuthC and act upon it.

 

Joanie

[ironin]

Great post, Ruth!

Also probably a waste of time. FWIW, I found it neither smug nor condescending. The poster who has been busy accusing everyone who disagrees with him/her of being both of those things seems ever more smug and condescending him/herself with every post they write. In my experience, people driven by petty personal political agendas usually do.

[cruz chic]

No, I am merely a person with a brain who refuses to condemn a person without knowing all the facts--especially when that person seems to be following all the STATED rules.

 

More importantly I am a person who is terrified by the kind of intolerance I seem to be reading time and again in this thread. It's just emblematic of our times, I guess. And, for the record, if the woman in question is indeed "anti-immigration" her politics couldn't more different than mine.

 

It's about taking responsibility for yourself instead a blaming everyone and anyone. I'm thinking this is the reason that so many people are having a problem with it. Should people not be held accountable for their actions?

[RuthC]

The poster who has been busy accusing everyone who disagrees with him/her of being both of those things seems ever more smug and condescending him/herself with every post they write.

Makes you wonder when the schools stopped teaching critical thinking, doesn't it.

[Andiamo39]

I went to this site http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis_pa_tw_2223.html

 

there is nothing there that says you can use anything other than a passport or a passport card if you go outside the US. Did I misread this????

 

True but the cruise NEVER went outside of the USA except for a stop in Ensenada where the passengers could chose to stay on the ship. As such this is considered a closed circuit (i.e. within the borders of the USA) cruise and a passport is therefore not required.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

True but the cruise NEVER went outside of the USA except for a stop in Ensenada where the passengers could chose to stay on the ship. As such this is considered a closed circuit (i.e. within the borders of the USA) cruise and a passport is therefore not required.

A few miles off the coast of San Diego the ship is in International Waters for much of the Journey to Hawaii, International Waters IS NOT United States. Stopping in Mexico which is again not the United States requires a Passport.

[Andiamo39]

It's about taking responsibility for yourself instead a blaming everyone and anyone. I'm thinking this is the reason that so many people are having a problem with it. Should people not be held accountable for their actions?

 

Yes, I couldn't agree more. So why are all of you so quick to hold this woman accountable and yet let HAL completely off the hook for their imprecise policies and misapplication (IMO) of the Customs rules. All of you mention HALs confusing policies but show complete contempt for this unfortunate woman who was denied the company of her family on her birthday.

 

Why no contempt for HAL? Why do you have to turn this woman into a villain? Can't we all just agree that an unfortunate mistake was made by BOTH sides and leave it at that?

[cruz chic]

Yes, I couldn't agree more. So why are all of you so quick to hold this woman accountable and yet let HAL completely off the hook for their imprecise policies and misapplication (IMO) of the Customs rules. All of you mention HALs confusing policies but show complete contempt for this unfortunate woman who was denied the company of her family on her birthday.

 

Why no contempt for HAL? Why do you have to turn this woman into a villain? Can't we all just agree that an unfortunate mistake was made by BOTH sides and leave it at that?

 

Again...it's about taking responsibility for YOURSELF. YOU need to find what you require. I don't depend on what Hal tells me because I'm a responsible adult. That's what adults do. I don't care what HAL says......it's my RESPOSIBILITY to make sure I have what I need.....not to blame others. I learned a long time ago that HAL can't get it's ship together so the only one I can reply on is myself. It's simply amazing to me how you can defend the undefendable.

[Andiamo39]

A few miles off the coast of San Diego the ship is in International Waters for much of the Journey to Hawaii, International Waters IS NOT United States. Stopping in Mexico which is again not the United States requires a Passport.

 

Nope, you couldn't be more incorrect. I guess you never heard of the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI). Just go on the HAL Web site (see my post with the link above) and you can read all about it.

[IRL_Joanie]

Yes, I couldn't agree more. So why are all of you so quick to hold this woman accountable and yet let HAL completely off the hook for their imprecise policies and misapplication (IMO) of the Customs rules. All of you mention HALs confusing policies but show complete contempt for this unfortunate woman who was denied the company of her family on her birthday.

 

Why no contempt for HAL? Why do you have to turn this woman into a villain? Can't we all just agree that an unfortunate mistake was made by BOTH sides and leave it at that?

 

Because she deserves contempt and not compassion for FLAGRANTLY atttepmting to vioolate US GOVERNMENT LAWS!! Not HAL Laws but US GOVERNMENT!!!

 

She Has a Passport. Her mother and sister obviously have one each. It matters not, she had one 2 years prior and used it them. She works with program(s) that means she has to know what she is doing or attempting to do.

 

HAL does NOT set the regulation, they only follow it!!

 

It was NOT HAL that denied her access to the ship, it was US Officials who did so because THEY said she did not have the proper documentation.

 

She and others that support her stupidity need to put the blame where it belongs, on HER.

 

Quit blaming HAL for this incident. The only blame belongs to this woman.

 

Joanie

[PhoenixCruiser]

True but the cruise NEVER went outside of the USA except for a stop in Ensenada where the passengers could chose to stay on the ship. As such this is considered a closed circuit (i.e. within the borders of the USA) cruise and a passport is therefore not required.

 

Why do you think the ship stopped in Ensenada???

 

It was required...and that is why official, government issued, paperwork was required. It really doesn't matter if the passengers got off at that specific port.

 

###

[ironin]

Makes you wonder when the schools stopped teaching critical thinking, doesn't it.

 

LOL! You do have to wonder about people who accept things claimed or alleged by one person as known facts. This may explain the denunciation of a private company operating under regulations issued by the government for implementing those regulations as dictated by the government.

 

That said, it can be mildly entertaining to watch someone claiming they have facts on their side engage in serial character assassination when they aren't busy wholesaling their special form of invective.

[Andiamo39]

I just can't help wondering where all this meanness of spirit comes from. Whatever happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt? I'm getting too sad to continue this vitriol so this is my last post on this thread. Adios amigos and have a great trip. I won't be looking for you on my next cruise.

[PhoenixCruiser]

Again, it is not meanness, it is about reality and taking responsibility for one's actions.

 

Happy Holidays :)

 

###

[mikjr]

Why no contempt for HAL? Why do you have to turn this woman into a villain? Can't we all just agree that an unfortunate mistake was made by BOTH sides and leave it at that?

 

Maybe some of it stems from the fact that many have said the woman is an "illegal immigration activist", which seems to rub some the wrong way. Her political activism should have nothing to do with it...

 

Should she have carried a passport, YES. But are the HAL boards clear enough to the point about the subject? Based on what I have read from various posts, I would have to say NO.

[RetiredMustang]

I... this is my last post on this thread. Adios amigos and have a great trip. I won't be looking for you on my next cruise.

 

Grazie a Dio! (Thanks/Grace to God!) Your CC name may mean "we are going" (which is what andiamo in Italian translates to in English), but I for one am glad you have already gone. I will not be looking for you on any cruise, ever. You dis Ruth, and you are done on the HAL boards.

 

(I refrained from posting a colorful Neapolitan phrase here, as someone else may be able to translate it and get me banned from CC ... for life, or longer! :D).

 

Dave

[ironin]

Maybe some of it stems from the fact that many have said the woman is an "illegal immigration activist", which seems to rub some the wrong way. Her political activism should have nothing to do with it...

 

Should she have carried a passport, YES. But are the HAL boards clear enough to the point about the subject? Based on what I have read from various posts, I would have to say NO.

 

Maybe some of it has to do with the poster accusing those who disagreed with him/her of being, among other things, "brain dead."

 

Maybe some of it has to do with the FACT that government officials direct private companies how to implement government regulations and all the blame appears to be directed at the private company.

 

Maybe it has to do with not living in a vacuum and understanding that things have changed over the last decade. (Or then again, maybe it has to do with remembering a certified copy of a birth certificate was required to get one's first driver's license from the California DMV more than three decades ago.)

 

Maybe it has to do with the woman's claim that she does have a passport and, IIRC, used it on a previous cruise.

 

Maybe it has to do with simple logic combined with life experience: does a story "pass the smell test?" Does a story have the "ring of verisimilitude?"

 

Maybe it has to do with widespread belief in accepting personal responsibility for one's actions.

 

Maybe it has to do with understanding that what we, or others, think the government regulations say, the only opinions that matter are those of the ones enforcing the government regulations and directing private companies accordingly.

 

Pretending that this is all a reaction to her political activism may be convenient but I doubt it is accurate. I doubt a majority here would agree on immigration policy or changes thereto, the TSA and airport security, or a host of related issues.

 

Most people will give others the "benefit of the doubt," but experience teaches most of us that situations involving near-complete suspension of reality and total disregard of context are not usually good times to exercise that discretion.

[cruz chic]

Grazie a Dio! (Thanks/Grace to God!) Your CC name may mean "we are going" (which is what andiamo in Italian translates to in English), but I for one am glad you have already gone. I will not be looking for you on any cruise, ever. You dis Ruth, and you are done on the HAL boards.

 

(I refrained from posting a colorful Neapolitan phrase here, as someone else may be able to translate it and get me banned from CC ... for life, or longer! :D).

 

Dave

 

Excellent post. I think you speak for several of us....or myself at the very least.

[RuthC]

 

Maybe it has to do with simple logic combined with life experience: does a story "pass the smell test?" Does a story have the "ring of verisimilitude?"

That's the one. With this one as a chaser:

Maybe it has to do with not living in a vacuum and understanding that things have changed over the last decade.

[TiogaCruiser]

Makes you wonder when the schools stopped teaching critical thinking, doesn't it.

 

Classic, Ruth. You got that one right on the bulls eye.

 

 

Maybe some of it has to do with the poster accusing those who disagreed with him/her of being, among other things, "brain dead."

 

Maybe some of it has to do with the FACT that government officials direct private companies how to implement government regulations and all the blame appears to be directed at the private company.

 

Maybe it has to do with not living in a vacuum and understanding that things have changed over the last decade. (Or then again, maybe it has to do with remembering a certified copy of a birth certificate was required to get one's first driver's license from the California DMV more than three decades ago.)

 

Maybe it has to do with the woman's claim that she does have a passport and, IIRC, used it on a previous cruise.

 

Maybe it has to do with simple logic combined with life experience: does a story "pass the smell test?" Does a story have the "ring of verisimilitude?"

 

Maybe it has to do with widespread belief in accepting personal responsibility for one's actions.

 

Maybe it has to do with understanding that what we, or others, think the government regulations say, the only opinions that matter are those of the ones enforcing the government regulations and directing private companies accordingly.

 

Pretending that this is all a reaction to her political activism may be convenient but I doubt it is accurate. I doubt a majority here would agree on immigration policy or changes thereto, the TSA and airport security, or a host of related issues.

 

Most people will give others the "benefit of the doubt," but experience teaches most of us that situations involving near-complete suspension of reality and total disregard of context are not usually good times to exercise that discretion.

 

Ditto, Ironin. It has nothing to do with her political views, just her behavior. I, too, had to get my birth certificate well over 30 years ago in order to get my driver's license.

 

FWIW, DH's comment (tongue firmly in cheek) about the commerative certificate was 'okay, take of the shoes and let's see if those feet match now.'

 

~TC

[mikjr]

Pretending that this is all a reaction to her political activism may be convenient but I doubt it is accurate. I doubt a majority here would agree on immigration policy or changes thereto, the TSA and airport security, or a host of related issues.

 

I agree with everything you said in your post... but I only mentioned it because others threw out the race card and her political activism?? Her political position has nothing to do with her issue with HAL. If posters would stay on point and within the issue of my original post, that would be great!