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Passport - why so scary


LuckyZ
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Twice within a matter of months the US government has had to issue passport waivers en masse because a cruise line had to fly its passengers home in the middle of a closed loop cruise. Can't help but wonder if the folks in Washington are going to rethink policy.

 

No just Jay Rockefeller.

 

Bill

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I would say yes. I think it's only a matter of time when it's going to be: if you leave your country, you'll need a passport, period.

 

The DHS determined that US citizens cruising on a closed loop cruise within the Western Hemisphere represent a low risk to the national security. Recent events do not impact that assessment, so it is unlikely to trigger a review of the regulations.

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The DHS determined that US citizens cruising on a closed loop cruise within the Western Hemisphere represent a low risk to the national security. Recent events do not impact that assessment, so it is unlikely to trigger a review of the regulations.

 

The alternative to a passport documents needed for a closed loop cruise are the documents needed to get a passport . . . Where is the risk differential? Requiring a passport simply makes it possible for CBP to quickly add info from the passport into their data bases. And why are you a greater risk flying home from Aruba, or anywhere else for that matter, than you are cruising home from Aruba?

Edited by CPT Trips
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Ain't gonna happen unless they develop some serious fortitude inside the Beltway. Just like they never got rid of the dollar bill after issuing coins, instituted the metric system, or abolish the expensive penny like Canada has done. Those congressional cowards are so afriad they might lose votes, or more importantly corporate dollars. :rolleyes:

 

Yeah...funny thing about those pennies.:confused: One day we had them, the next day we didn't... no one told me. It's ok - pennies were a nuisance anyway. Passports are good! What if you get invited to Paris for the weekend? It would be crummy if you couldn't go because of not having a passport. Hey, it could happen.

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Yeah...funny thing about those pennies.:confused: One day we had them, the next day we didn't... no one told me. It's ok - pennies were a nuisance anyway. Passports are good! What if you get invited to Paris for the weekend? It would be crummy if you couldn't go because of not having a passport. Hey, it could happen.

I have had a passport for about 30 years and am still waiting for the invite to Paris for a weekend. :)

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The alternative to a passport documents needed for a closed loop cruise are the documents needed to get a passport . . . Where is the risk differential? Requiring a passport simply makes it possible for CBP to quickly add info from the passport into their data bases. And why are you a greater risk flying home from Aruba, or anywhere else for that matter, than you are cruising home from Aruba?

 

If you read the regulations they spell it all out. As I recall with cruise ship passengers there is time to vet them through the multitude of databases they have, whereas with crossborder/flight traffic the time window is smaller and a more secure means of proving ID and citizenship exists. There are other reasons given but that's the one that I remember.

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If you read the regulations they spell it all out. As I recall with cruise ship passengers there is time to vet them through the multitude of databases they have, whereas with crossborder/flight traffic the time window is smaller and a more secure means of proving ID and citizenship exists. There are other reasons given but that's the one that I remember.

 

More likely it was the cruise industry whining to key congressman with the promise of PAC money to follow. Lets not be naive about the way our system works.

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No just Jay Rockefeller.

 

Bill

 

And Chuck Schumer.

 

Let's not lose sight of the real reason for the closed loop cruise exception -- when the rules were proposed there were no exceptions, but the cruise industry and the associations representing Caribbean islands most likely to be affected lobbied long and hard. So they reevaluated and decided cruises were "low risk".

 

But the mood in Washington . . .Carnival voluntarily reimbursed the US Coast Guard after the Triumph. It wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

Lobbyists. . . Voters. . . The pendulum swings . . .

 

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

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The DHS determined that US citizens cruising on a closed loop cruise within the Western Hemisphere represent a low risk to the national security. Recent events do not impact that assessment, so it is unlikely to trigger a review of the regulations.

 

I agree. Until relatively recently we (U.S citizens) were able to travel throughout the Caribbean, Canada and Central America without passports. Whether by land, air or sea. It explains why many people never bothered to get one. We could go from glaciers to the tropics, deserts to the mountains without a passport. Until we made our first trip to Europe we never bothered with a passport. Many people feel they don't really need a passport to see many wonderful sights, that's their choice. I don't see why it is a concern to anyone but those individuals. They made their choice, they can deal with the consequences if and when they may occur.

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If you read the regulations they spell it all out. As I recall with cruise ship passengers there is time to vet them through the multitude of databases they have, whereas with crossborder/flight traffic the time window is smaller and a more secure means of proving ID and citizenship exists. There are other reasons given but that's the one that I remember.

 

?????? I do not get your point. To use another example, you present at a land border crossing with no passport and, as a US citizen, with BC and proof of ID, you get admitted. No advance notice needed.

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?????? I do not get your point. To use another example, you present at a land border crossing with no passport and, as a US citizen, with BC and proof of ID, you get admitted. No advance notice needed.

 

Your example is wrong. You can't enter the US at a land crossing with just a BC and ID. A WHTI-compliant document is required...passport, passport card, enhanced drivers license or certain trusted traveler cards (with certain exceptions for certain individuals such as children, member of the military traveling on official orders, etc.). All of those documents (passport, passport card, EDL, trusted traveler card) combine proof of citizenship and ID, and if you have one of them all your information is on file and immediately available in the government's database.

Edited by njhorseman
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And Chuck Schumer.

 

Let's not lose sight of the real reason for the closed loop cruise exception -- when the rules were proposed there were no exceptions, but the cruise industry and the associations representing Caribbean islands most likely to be affected lobbied long and hard. So they reevaluated and decided cruises were "low risk".

 

But the mood in Washington . . .Carnival voluntarily reimbursed the US Coast Guard after the Triumph. It wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

Lobbyists. . . Voters. . . The pendulum swings . . .

 

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

 

When the regulations were proposed there were exceptions in them and there are still exceptions in them.

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More likely it was the cruise industry whining to key congressman with the promise of PAC money to follow. Lets not be naive about the way our system works.

 

I am old enough to know that anything is possible but the regulations were written by a bunch of DHS beauracrats, not a Congressional committee. Certainly if a member of Congress provided input it would be considered but individual Congress persons would have little impact on the process. The pressure to allow more exceptions for cross boarder traffic in border communities was greater than any from the cruise industry. Of course every citizen has the right to provide input to any proposed Federal Regulation.

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?????? I do not get your point. To use another example, you present at a land border crossing with no passport and, as a US citizen, with BC and proof of ID, you get admitted. No advance notice needed.

 

Your example is wrong. You can't enter the US at a land crossing with just a BC and ID. A WHTI-compliant document is required...passport, passport card, enhanced drivers license or certain trusted traveler cards (with certain exceptions for certain individuals such as children, member of the military traveling on official orders, etc.). All of those documents (passport, passport card, EDL, trusted traveler card) combine proof of citizenship and ID, and if you have one of them all your information is on file and immediately available in the government's database.

 

Welllll, you are required to have the documents mentioned by njhorseman but if you were to show up at a land border crossing with a birth certificate you would still be admitted. You would spend some time in secondary inspection, you'd probably have everything searched and you may even face a fine (or threat of a fine) for not having the right documentation but eventually they would have to let you enter. The last time I checked there is no law giving them the right to actually deny a US citizen entry.

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I am old enough to know that anything is possible but the regulations were written by a bunch of DHS beauracrats, not a Congressional committee. Certainly if a member of Congress provided input it would be considered but individual Congress persons would have little impact on the process. The pressure to allow more exceptions for cross boarder traffic in border communities was greater than any from the cruise industry. Of course every citizen has the right to provide input to any proposed Federal Regulation.

 

I have been in the Federal government long enough to know how things really work. You are correct that DHS bureaucrats (although more likely worker bees like me) write the regs but don't be fooled, a call or two from a Congessional office can and will lead to changes. Here is how it works.

 

Draft Regulation---->Agency Coordination----->Published in Federal Register asking for feedback----->Revisions Based on Feedback---->Agency Coordination---->Final in Federal Register---->Publication and Implementation.

 

Trust me, there is plenty of room for Members of Congress and Senators to horn in on the process during reviews.

Edited by Doug R.
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Welllll, you are required to have the documents mentioned by njhorseman but if you were to show up at a land border crossing with a birth certificate you would still be admitted. You would spend some time in secondary inspection, you'd probably have everything searched and you may even face a fine (or threat of a fine) for not having the right documentation but eventually they would have to let you enter. The last time I checked there is no law giving them the right to actually deny a US citizen entry.

 

That's the bottom line . . . A US citizen must be readmitted. Without a passport, you cannot enter many/most other countries and common carriers will not take you there.

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I have been in the Federal government long enough to know how things really work. You are correct that DHS bureaucrats (although more likely worker bees like me) write the regs but don't be fooled, a call or two from a Congessional office can and will lead to changes. Here is how it works.

 

Draft Regulation---->Agency Coordination----->Published in Federal Register asking for feedback----->Revisions Based on Feedback---->Agency Coordination---->Final in Federal Register---->Publication and Implementation.

 

Trust me, there is plenty of room for Members of Congress and Senators to horn in on the process during reviews.

 

Should enabling legislation or legislative authority be listed before draft regulation?

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:

Should enabling legislation or legislative authority be listed before draft regulation?

 

Actually I presumed that being in place. The bureaucrats and thier evil undelings (like me:D) do nothing without authorizion via law, and delegation of authority.

Edited by Doug R.
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That's the bottom line . . . A US citizen must be readmitted. Without a passport, you cannot enter many/most other countries and common carriers will not take you there.

 

You'll only be readmitted after US Customs and Border Protection has decided you are a citizen, eligible to be readmitted. That could take hours...perhaps even days if your non-compliant documentation is deemed questionable because in the worst case scenario if they're suspicious of your documentation they could require you to apply for a passport at the nearest US consulate.

 

You can't just stroll up to the border, show your birth certificate and drivers license and expect to be immediately readmitted as if you had proper documentation such as a passport or passport card..

 

The reason the BC and photo ID work for a closed loop cruise is because CBP has the passenger manifest in hand before the ship even sails, so there's ample opporunity to identify who you are long before the ship returns to its port of origin.

Edited by njhorseman
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Draft Regulation---->Agency Coordination----->Published in Federal Register asking for feedback----->Revisions Based on Feedback---->Agency Coordination---->Final in Federal Register---->Publication and Implementation.

 

That's not the way they explained it on Schoolhouse Rock

 

im-just-a-bill.jpg

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Welllll, you are required to have the documents mentioned by njhorseman but if you were to show up at a land border crossing with a birth certificate you would still be admitted. You would spend some time in secondary inspection, you'd probably have everything searched and you may even face a fine (or threat of a fine) for not having the right documentation but eventually they would have to let you enter. The last time I checked there is no law giving them the right to actually deny a US citizen entry.

 

You are absolutely correct: there is no law giving anyone the right to deny a US citizen entry to the United States. The catch, however, is that a person has to do more than simply claim to be a US citizen -- he has to prove it, and that requires reasonable documentation. A birth certificate alone is not sufficient. The WHTI closed loop requires BOTH a birth certificate and a photo ID - such as a drivers license --- and that is closed loop.

 

A birth certificate alone proves nothing -- otherwise there would be a lively market in US birth certificates if someone with no other ID could use it one to show up at a border crossing and be granted entry.

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For the type of travel that I am able to do right now neither the US government nor the governments of any of the countries that I visit require me to have a passport, so I don't have one.

 

I don't know what what contries you visit, but we our passportrs have lunch Mexico

. Having problems, hope you can trad.

Edited by Taxguy77
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You are absolutely correct: there is no law giving anyone the right to deny a US citizen entry to the United States. The catch, however, is that a person has to do more than simply claim to be a US citizen -- he has to prove it, and that requires reasonable documentation. A birth certificate alone is not sufficient. The WHTI closed loop requires BOTH a birth certificate and a photo ID - such as a drivers license --- and that is closed loop.

 

A birth certificate alone proves nothing -- otherwise there would be a lively market in US birth certificates if someone with no other ID could use it one to show up at a border crossing and be granted entry.

 

Yes, the bc by itself would be insufficient, I meant to say if you showed up at a border crossing with Bc and photo id. It is not unheard of having someone present at the border with no documentation (think robbery), although it has been awhile since I have heard of it happening. (I live 8 miles from the border and hear such things.)

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