Children's Program

[ravenclaw]

My expectations of Seabourn are that my cruise will have an ambience of refined sophistication.

 

That's what the marketing campaign and brochures project...when you find this cruise with "refined sophistication", please post ASAP. Anxiously waiting. :)

[commodoredave]

I wonder how it is that a number of land-based resorts can succeed with adults-only policies but not so with luxury cruise lines. Perhaps we have more business policy influence on cruise lines than we give ourselves credit for. But to have any impact, we have to use that influence by letting cruise lines know when we feel disappointed, and by voting with our wallets when they refuse to adjust policies or enforce existing rules so that we can enjoy our cruise. Suffering in silence only makes it worse.

[zich6]

Sorry but I do not agree that because some people do not care for many children on board or that they don't want a room used by children that Seabourn has to do anything about it.Keith

 

I think we're more in agreement than is apparent.

 

In a more recent post, you said "l have come to realize that it would be wise to provide families traveling with children with a write-up at the time of booking and then one in their room that talks about expected conduct of children on board. And that the crew stay on top of this."

 

Ironically, the pilot program I proposed to SB was a variation of this, with two exceptions. I proposed a mandatory 15 minute meeting with parents with children on-board, possibly immediately after the life boat drill. This meeting would be titled something like "Children Activities" and would include all things SB wanted to say about the subject. But, the responsibilities of parents would also be addressed. Then, I volunteered to monitor children behavior, free of charge. As a way to monitor the effectiveness of the program, I proposed an entry on the post cruise survey directly related to the children issue. That said, I would agree to your idea, as well. Sadly, SB wasn't interested.

 

If anyone notices either the on-board meeting, or the survey change being implemented on-board, please let me know.

 

Tim

[jenidallas]

Yep, I tried on board Sojourn a few weeks ago.

 

Oh well. At least drinking isn't a key part of her enjoyment. Lots of nice non alcoholic cocktails, or one of Paul's Fire Engines!

 

I was about to ask if your son/daughter were the two poised gracious college students I had the pleasure of meeting on Sojourn a few weeks ago. But unless you have instructed them in the fine art of a southern (US) accent, I am guessing it was another well-bred duo. :rolleyes:

 

I'm childless so I try to stay out of the children arguments but I specifically choose Seabourn to be away from the all-ages masses on the other lines. We had a handful of under 21s on a June Sojourn sailing but they were for the most part seen and not heard. One exception was the afternoon a family decided to overtake the Serene Area and had their stuff strewn about the warm chairs while they hopped from inside to out to sauna to steam room to chairs. I had to ask the spa manager to put an end to it and got a dirty look from the parents after they were talked to.

 

I do find that so often, it is not the children that are the problem but the parents. The children are being children. Many of my friends with children however do not want to give up their luxury traveling ways so they convince themselves that *their* child is different when flying in first class or dining in a five-star restaurant or staying in a luxury hotel or sailing on Seabourn. And in their eyes, their child IS different, perhaps because they so badly want to believe that their own style of travel should not have to be compromised or changed. So these parents demand that the service be bent around their needs (asking for menu changes in restaurants to accommodate young palettes, letting their kids bang on computers in the airline lounge or run amok in lobbies or spas) all so they don't have to give up what they feel entitled to.

 

So sadly, I believe Seabourn and travel agents can caution, instruct, and rule-make to their heart's content, but until they can change the perceptions of the parents, it will be the same old, same old.

[commodoredave]

I was about to ask if your son/daughter were the two poised gracious college students I had the pleasure of meeting on Sojourn a few weeks ago. But unless you have instructed them in the fine art of a southern (US) accent, I am guessing it was another well-bred duo. :rolleyes:

 

I'm childless so I try to stay out of the children arguments but I specifically choose Seabourn to be away from the all-ages masses on the other lines. We had a handful of under 21s on a June Sojourn sailing but they were for the most part seen and not heard. One exception was the afternoon a family decided to overtake the Serene Area and had their stuff strewn about the warm chairs while they hopped from inside to out to sauna to steam room to chairs. I had to ask the spa manager to put an end to it and got a dirty look from the parents after they were talked to.

 

I do find that so often, it is not the children that are the problem but the parents. The children are being children. Many of my friends with children however do not want to give up their luxury traveling ways so they convince themselves that *their* child is different when flying in first class or dining in a five-star restaurant or staying in a luxury hotel or sailing on Seabourn. And in their eyes, their child IS different, perhaps because they so badly want to believe that their own style of travel should not have to be compromised or changed. So these parents demand that the service be bent around their needs (asking for menu changes in restaurants to accommodate young palettes, letting their kids bang on computers in the airline lounge or run amok in lobbies or spas) all so they don't have to give up what they feel entitled to.

 

So sadly, I believe Seabourn and travel agents can caution, instruct, and rule-make to their heart's content, but until they can change the perceptions of the parents, it will be the same old, same old.

 

Yes, the parents are to blame, not the children. That's why it's important for the airlines, restaurants, cruise lines, etc. to hold the parents accountable for the bad behaviour of their children.

[frantic36]

Julie, all I am saying is that I really doubt that the cruise lines (and in this case Seabourn) are going to not do anything when a lot of children are on board the ship during the summer months. If they felt that they could fill the ships in the Summer without children (families which also include in some cases grand parents, parents and the children) they might and I say might because it is their call differentiate themselves.

 

And, I do believe that since there are children on board that it is wiser to offer some type of program for them because I truly believe this will actually result in less of an impact on the other cruisers since it will keep the children occupied.

 

I know that some will disagree but Seabourn is not an adults only line. Yes, when you had the triplets you have far less children but as soon as they announced the larger generation of ships I expected that you would see quite a few children on board.

 

I know that my preference would be that they do have something organized for the children because I think it is a win-win all the way around. And yes, I know if one doesn't want a bunch of children on board they say there is no win-win to this. But, with or without a program you will likely see a lot of children on board. And if Seaborn should introduce a larger generation of ships in the future, that will open the door for additional children.

 

And yes the reality is that you will see children on board most summer sailings and particularly those that involve the Mediterranean and also ones that are short in duration. If the economy gains strength you will see more and not less.

 

I do agree that the atmosphere changes with kids. I said that I would not have brought children at some of the ages that people now bring their children on any cruise line and certainly a luxury line. But I realize that we all see things differently. You know I love quiet restaurants with tablecloths. But over the past 15 years many people seem to like restaurants that are less traditional and quite loud. I have seen favorite restaurants change to meet what others want. Well, rather than expect them to stay the same for me, we just seek out other alternatives. Life changes. You see it in other ways including evening attire. And also as peoples own lives change sometimes they have different perspectives.

 

I also have come to realize that it would be wise to provide families traveling with children with a writeup at the time of booking and then one in their room that talks about expected conduct of children on board. And that the crew stay on top of this.

 

From my vantage point I am just being realistic about this. My guess is that Seabourn loses a few passengers because of this but nets quite a few more. If they didn't they would not go this route. Same goes for the other luxury lines.

 

And no I am not a defeatist because in the end they are making a business decision. It is their business so they can make these decisions just like it is each of our choices as to whether or not we sail with them or any other cruise line.

 

And finally, I don't see this as Seabourn doing the job of the parents. Rather, I see this as Seabourn welcoming families to the fold.

 

This is one of these items that we can post another 1,000 times and none of the opinions will change.

 

In a week or so this thread will move downwards as there are less posts. The issue will not come up again until someone mentions children on board. Just like other topics this is how it tends to go.

 

Keith

 

 

We will have to agree to disagree on this point Keith:).

 

I am still happy to take you and Ann Marie around Perth when you visit in 2015 on the world cruise if you would like. I have a nice bottle of Margaret River Red for you to enjoy. Not that I am bribing you:D.

 

Julie

[Ravenscroft]

That's what the marketing campaign and brochures project...when you find this cruise with "refined sophistication", please post ASAP. Anxiously waiting. :)

 

:D

Surprisingly enough, the Quest for 18 days during Christmas/New Year was like that. We had two children on board. One was a baby and the other a young girl aged about 12. Neither of them created any nuisance at all.

Then did 7 days on Sojourn in June - about which I've written extensively - and it was a bloody nightmare at times.

It's the hit and miss aspect of this that's so unnerving :eek:

[Ravenscroft]

Yes, the parents are to blame, not the children. That's why it's important for the airlines, restaurants, cruise lines, etc. to hold the parents accountable for the bad behaviour of their children.

 

Absolutely agree.

[Jim Avery]

:D

Surprisingly enough, the Quest for 18 days during Christmas/New Year was like that. We had two children on board. One was a baby and the other a young girl aged about 12. Neither of them created any nuisance at all.

Then did 7 days on Sojourn in June - about which I've written extensively - and it was a bloody nightmare at times.

It's the hit and miss aspect of this that's so unnerving :eek:

 

Yes, Hit or miss. And it is an expensive gamble. I can spend a week being aggravated for lots less money than Seabourn with kids.:eek:

[Ravenscroft]

Yes, Hit or miss. And it is an expensive gamble. I can spend a week being aggravated for lots less money than Seabourn with kids.:eek:

 

Exactly what my husband said.

[zich6]

A "hit or miss" experience is in no reasonable company mission, or marketing, including SB's. Yet, isn't this something we can all agree is happening due to the mismanagement of children aboard? As most here have said, SB should be doing more, so that all customers receive what they were promised (in the marketing).

 

I'm sure the mods are listening. I propose that this thread be made a "sticky" until such time as this issue has been adequately addressed by SB. After all, there is a "sticky" thread for those who need help deciding what to wear. To me, this is a more serious issue that has negatively impacted more pax and to a greater degree.

[ravenclaw]

:D

Surprisingly enough, the Quest for 18 days during Christmas/New Year was like that. We had two children on board. One was a baby and the other a young girl aged about 12. Neither of them created any nuisance at all.

Then did 7 days on Sojourn in June - about which I've written extensively - and it was a bloody nightmare at times.

It's the hit and miss aspect of this that's so unnerving :eek:

 

Thanks for the update..surprised your holiday cruise was sedate, where one would think many children would be on board...hit or miss, as you say.

But summer cruising should come with a flashing red light advisory when it comes to children.

[Keith1010]

I think we're more in agreement than is apparent.

 

In a more recent post, you said "l have come to realize that it would be wise to provide families traveling with children with a write-up at the time of booking and then one in their room that talks about expected conduct of children on board. And that the crew stay on top of this."

 

Ironically, the pilot program I proposed to SB was a variation of this, with two exceptions. I proposed a mandatory 15 minute meeting with parents with children on-board, possibly immediately after the life boat drill. This meeting would be titled something like "Children Activities" and would include all things SB wanted to say about the subject. But, the responsibilities of parents would also be addressed. Then, I volunteered to monitor children behavior, free of charge. As a way to monitor the effectiveness of the program, I proposed an entry on the post cruise survey directly related to the children issue. That said, I would agree to your idea, as well. Sadly, SB wasn't interested.

 

If anyone notices either the on-board meeting, or the survey change being implemented on-board, please let me know.

 

Tim

 

Tim, yes, I think providing a written policy is good as I mentioned early. I also think a 15 minute meeting is a good idea too.

 

If I was a decision maker I would not have a survey question related to this item.

 

Keith

[Chairsin]

We were also fortunate on or Holiday Quest cruise a year ago -- one baby and another teen -- neither any problem. I would say we have usually averaged one or two children per cruise on the small ships over the years --usually preschool age since we often cruise the Med in September.The Quest holiday cruise was our only big ship experience to date. It also seems to me there were no children on our Norwegian cruise in August two years ( Stamfordian, does your memory on this topic agree with mine?) and none on our Baltic cruise in June the year before. So yes, it is hit or miss but I agree that summer Med cruises on the big ships are likely to attract a higher number of children than other cruises on the small ships and cruises with non Med itineraries.

[zich6]

Tim, yes, I think providing a written policy is good as I mentioned early. I also think a 15 minute meeting is a good idea too.

 

If I was a decision maker I would not have a survey question related to this item.

 

Keith

 

Well, at the risk of self promotion, if anyone here thinks these are good ideas, the Executive VP, Fleet Operations e-mail is dgrausz@hollandamerica.com He sounds like a nice guy and responded to me quickly and professionally, but as I said, they either decided to handle things themselves, or they don't think it's serious enough for them to worry about.

 

If you choose to endorse the Pilot Program I proposed, if implemented, I guarantee the situation will be improved for all but the worst, clueless, parents.

[mariners]

zich6, I do not know what you have written in your proposal. I know nothing about you other than what I can glean from posts on this board which might or might not be accurate. Regardless, I could never support a proposal that I have not read. I also believe that many cruise lines are addressing the issue of children onboard. Check out Cruise Critics' article Controlling Your Kids at Sea.

 

All of the cruise lines that we have sailed on with our grandchildren have policies in place to address behaviour of the children. On our last cruise, there were some children who were behaving inappropriately and security onboard spoke with both the children and their parents. In one instance, there was an investigation because some of the children said that they were being provided alcohol. The parents or guardians of children who were attending the programs onboard were informed of what had happened. Parents/guardians of those children who were creating a problem were told that they would be forced to disembark if the problems continued.

[stamfordian]

It also seems to me there were no children on our Norwegian cruise in August two years ( Stamfordian, does your memory on this topic agree with mine?) .

 

Yup!

[wripro]

I suspect the Norwegian fjords are a less interesting destination for families and so resulted in fewer kids.

 

Here are the times and places to avoid to get fewer kids in my opinion.

1. Caribbean

2. the Med

3. Months of December, June, July, August

4. The O ships during above dates in for above Itineraries.

 

So now in addition to the cruise itself, flights, hotels, excursions etc. we must factor in the above when planning.

[mariners]

I know that cruise lines charter ships to a variety of groups. I wonder if there is a group that exists that caters only to adults that could charter a sailing for an all adult cruise. Perhaps, if it doesn't exist, someone would like to create that group. The group could then charter Seaborn and/or SeaDream and an all adult sailing could be created. I think, that if it was publicized, there might be enough passengers just from posters on Cruise Critic that the ship would be full. That way, you could ensure that there were no children onboard.

 

If there was enough interest, multiple sailings and/or itineraries could be offered.

[wripro]

Good luck finding a time and itinerary that everyone will agree on.

[zich6]

zich6, I do not know what you have written in your proposal. I know nothing about you other than what I can glean from posts on this board which might or might not be accurate. Regardless, I could never support a proposal that I have not read. I also believe that many cruise lines are addressing the issue of children onboard. Check out Cruise Critics' article Controlling Your Kids at Sea.

 

All of the cruise lines that we have sailed on with our grandchildren have policies in place to address behaviour of the children. On our last cruise, there were some children who were behaving inappropriately and security onboard spoke with both the children and their parents. In one instance, there was an investigation because some of the children said that they were being provided alcohol. The parents or guardians of children who were attending the programs onboard were informed of what had happened. Parents/guardians of those children who were creating a problem were told that they would be forced to disembark if the problems continued.

 

You have a reasonable approach, but there really isn't much about the proposal Statement of Work (SOW) that I haven't mentioned. I'll cut and paste it after I address your second point which essentially says "Problem? We don't see a problem. If there is a problem, it's either handled immediately by staff, or the web site instruction."

 

Yet, respectfully, that ignores the voluminous # of posts from people who do see a problem. That means either your children tolerance level is much higher than others, you're siting examples that were not on SB, you're assuming that all parents/grandparents are as consciencious as you and will follow the web site recommedations, or a combination thereof. The fact is, there is no, none, nada, bupkiss information regarding children on the SB site and there is ample evidence here that the situation is not being addressed adequately by countless posters.

 

Here is the meat of the proposal I submitted. You make your own call whether you want to support it. The bottom line is that it was a very low cost pilot program that would be done quickly and gives SB the option (if they liked the program) to have me contracted to expand it, or purchase it at a negotiated price:

 

“USE AND DISCLOSURE OF DATA”

 

 

This proposal includes data that shall not be disclosed outside of Carnival Corporation & plc. and shall not be duplicated, used, or disclosed-in whole or in part-for any purpose other than to evaluate this proposal. However, if a contract is awarded to this offeror as a result of-or in connection with-the submission of these data, the Carnival Corporation & plc. shall have the right to duplicate, use, or disclose the data to the extent provided in the resulting contract.

 

 

Dan: I'll assume that you and your staff are aware of the uniqueness of Seabourn (SB) in the cruise industry and the difficulty of properly integrating children into an atmosphere

and ships not designed for them. Add to that the size of the ships which virtually assure contact with children by those who are sensitive to their presence, as well as, the very limited options of segregating children on board due to the scarcity of physical options and its clear SB has a challenge.

 

To address this challenge, I propose to develop a mandatory 15 minute briefing for all parents on board. This could be conducted directly after the life boat drill. The briefing could be titled "Children Activities." The briefing would of course outline any activities that SB wants to discuss. But the primary purpose of the meeting would be to gently remind the parents of their parenting responsibility and the behavior expected of their children and perhaps areas of the ship where children should be discouraged.

 

Once the meeting has concluded, I would essentially monitor the behavior of the children and only intervene in cases where other passengers are visibly affected, complaints to the hotel manager, or other staff, or on a set of criteria that SB deems appropriate.

 

At the conclusion of the cruise, a section of the post cruise survey would be added to address how well children were integrated/managed. This would serve two purposes. The first would serve as data that will be measured against pre-established metrics to evaluate how well the pilot program is performing. Secondly, and I would argue just as important would be to signal all customers that Seabourn cares about children, but most importantly will let children sensitive cruisers, a substantial percentage of SB's customers, know that SB is addressing their concerns. I fully realize that a balance between addressing children sensitive passenger concerns and not upsetting parents and their children must be achieved. That said, I'm convinced that the PP will have great benefit to SB.

 

As to the 3 free cruises (without pay I might add), the PP is designed to address the real issue described in the proposal and is extant in paragraph three of this e-mail. If it is even marginally successful, it will surely increase revenue through additional bookings and markedly increase market share during school vacation periods, all for less than you pay the entertainment staff and they get to sail too, albeit in crew cabins. This shouldn't be viewed as just a free cruise for me. I'll be working hard. So, this truly is a very cost effective way for SB to address this very present issue. In fact, quite a bargain, I'd say.

 

As a senior manager I'm sure you're wondering if we agree to the PP, what's next after it’s completed. I've thought of that too. If satisfied with the program, I see two options. First, I would agree sell the rights of this Program to SB. The other option would be to hire me to continue to administer, refine and conduct the program.

 

I want you also to know that I'm semi-retired and I'm ready to meet with you immediately. I'd also like you to know that I see a benefit in starting the PP this month so we can get data during one of the busiest child vacation period.

 

I hope to hear from you soon.

 

Very respectfully,

 

Tim"

[Keith1010]

Good luck finding a time and itinerary that everyone will agree on.

 

And enough people and figuring this out 18 months in advance.

 

And doing it as often as people want to sail.

 

And this would not be allowed on Cruise Critic.

 

But, aside from all of that.............:D

 

Keith

[Mr Luxury]

One thing that strikes me is that Seabourn does not market itself as being child friendly nor do they offer any facilities for children at all.

I am not a parent but I have never understood why some parents take their children on a Seabourn ship,either they do not read the brochure or website or they have been misled by a travel agent or finally they are selfish and want what Seabourn has to offer them but take the children anyway.

 

Crystal would be a great luxury line for adults with children as they offer a kids club area with trained staff and many good things for the adults, plus the two ships are large and can cope well.

[Mr Luxury]

Good luck finding a time and itinerary that everyone will agree on.

 

They have had no problem filling a gay cruise last year that I was bumped off of.

 

Careful how you read this Gentleman.

[mariners]

wripro and Keith1010, I have absolutely no interest in trying to figure out any itinerary, time, and/or cruise line that groups of people would want to book. I was just trying to come up with something that might work for those people who want to sail on an adult only cruise. I totally get that some people want no children around. I have extended family and friends who feel that way and I ensure that my grandchildren are not here when we get together. I think it would be great if Seabourn and the people who have posted on this board could find a way to make it work. Although I am 99% sure that this is unrealistic, I like to take the positive approach to finding resolutions to problems. Specialty group cruises must all have begun from someone seeing a market for them.

 

zich6, I didn't say that I didn't see a problem. In fact, I stated that I would not take my youngest granddaughter on Seabourn. Despite the fact that we love her to pieces, I know that she would be a problem for some of the other passengers. What I did say was that on those cruise lines that we have sailed with our grandchildren, there were policies in place to address problems if they were to occur with children.

 

In my opinion, although Seabourn is new to having larger number of children onboard, there are already policies in place on other lines that they could choose to implement should they so desire.

 

I believe that you are trying to offer a solution, but the point I was trying to make is that I don't know you. My apologies if the way that I wrote the first post offended you and/or was not clear.