RCCL Next Cruise Cert help.

[fishtaco]

Correct, you cannot combine a next cruise certificate or any other loyalty discount with this sale as it applies to new bookings only. You also cannot cancel an existing booking and rebook and hope to get the discount.

This is one para out of the rules and conditions:

"Offer is not combinable with any other offer and/or promotion, including, but not limited to, Crown & Anchor, Shareholder Benefits, Future or NextCruise offers."

 

The problem with not being able to select the higher grade balcony cabins seems to be a website glitch that has been there for many months. Also happens on the D1/D2 selections. Works ok on the website on board the ship.

 

Might be worth an email to bring it to their attention.

Hugh

 

You are correct RCCL employees are wrong and I am now out of pocket and very mad!

 

I specifically asked if I could apply my FCC to my early bird 24 hour hold booking and keep the discount and was told "Yes" a supervisor will apply the discount and you will receive another email with the discounted booking price:mad:

 

Second time I have been burnt by RCCL and now I will never use them again on principal!

[cassamanda]

The way out of this would be to not cancel your next cruise certificate booking. Change it over to another cruise once the sale period ends, provided of course you are still outside the cutoff date for no loss. Our last cruise was an on board certificate that I had changed no less than 3 times without cost, so it can be done.

 

Purchase your current cruise using the sale prices as a new booking but you will probably have to select another cabin.

 

I do understand how you feel.

 

Good lesson for everyone. Don't use your next cruise certificate on sales like this. I also noticed that they actually jacked the prices up to cover much of the discount - comparing the same cruise last year.

 

Would be good to hear others experience on this.

 

Hugh

Edited January 7, 2014 by cassamanda

[fishtaco]

The way out of this would be to not cancel your next cruise certificate booking. Change it over to another cruise once the sale period ends, provided of course you are still outside the cutoff date for no loss. Our last cruise was an on board certificate that I had changed no less than 3 times without cost, so it can be done.

 

Purchase your current cruise using the sale prices as a new booking but you will probably have to select another cabin.

 

I do understand how you feel.

 

Good lesson for everyone. Don't use your next cruise certificate on sales like this. I also noticed that they actually jacked the prices up to cover much of the discount - comparing the same cruise last year.

 

Would be good to hear others experience on this.

 

Hugh

 

Yes I cruised same cruise as the one I booked for 2015 in 2013 like for like cabin and the price for both the 2013 and 2014 sailings ( although I didnt end up booking the 2014) were the same price as the early bird sale price for 2015 but 2013- 14 didnt have a discount.

 

They just jacked the price up as you said.

 

The Early Bird price I was happy with but not worth an extra $1200 just for a low deposit and $150 OBC that's for sure!

 

So I can just keep swapping my FCC booking to another cruise "forever" and get my monies worth in their time and effort for pay back:cool:

 

I feel sorry for Gae though as her booking is $2000+ more than she expected :(

 

RCI really need to get their act together with some of their employees telling blatant lies to customers!

 

Not everyone is going to read all the T&Cs when booking a cruise and there has to be a bit of trust that the companies employees actually know enough correct information as so customers dont feel the need to read the T&C,s inside out before picking up a phone.

 

My Carnival USA cruise bookings have been the total opposite of my RCCL bookings experience.

[CruisinCat31]

Yes I cruised same cruise as the one I booked for 2015 in 2013 like for like cabin and the price for both the 2013 and 2014 sailings ( although I didnt end up booking the 2014) were the same price as the early bird sale price for 2015 but 2013- 14 didnt have a discount.

 

They just jacked the price up as you said.

 

The Early Bird price I was happy with but not worth an extra $1200 just for a low deposit and $150 OBC that's for sure!

 

So I can just keep swapping my FCC booking to another cruise "forever" and get my monies worth in their time and effort for pay back:cool:

 

I feel sorry for Gae though as her booking is $2000+ more than she expected :(

 

RCI really need to get their act together with some of their employees telling blatant lies to customers!

 

Not everyone is going to read all the T&Cs when booking a cruise and there has to be a bit of trust that the companies employees actually know enough correct information as so customers dont feel the need to read the T&C,s inside out before picking up a phone.

 

My Carnival USA cruise bookings have been the total opposite of my RCCL bookings experience.

 

I still don't get why they put a second booking through with my next cruise certificate for me today, if they weren't doing something to try and apply it to my new booking?. Just a stuff up on their end or something more? I will try to find out more tomorrow. My cruise was much cheaper with the early bird so well worth booking without the next cruise certificate. I feel sorry for Gae too if there is an issue with her booking, but something tells me she'll sort it out.

[Nursebear]

Hi, I wanted to book a repositioning cruise to Singapore from Perth recently but as it was the weekend and RCCL office is closed, I placed a courtesy hold on the last apparent available junior suite.

 

On Monday morning, I called to apply my next cruise certificate to the booking and was told after almost an hour on the phone waiting(USA agent) that if I was to apply it I would lose the junior suite I had on hold as there was an alleged wait list for junior suites. The next day I see 5 junior suites available, so much for the waiting list and I think it was a ploy to avoid the extra hassle of changing the booking number to the next cruise certificate. I was furious and will call now and try and again apply my future cruise certificate. What is the point if they make it so difficult to use ?

 

Sue

[gaechann]

I still don't get why they put a second booking through with my next cruise certificate for me today, if they weren't doing something to try and apply it to my new booking?. Just a stuff up on their end or something more? I will try to find out more tomorrow. My cruise was much cheaper with the early bird so well worth booking without the next cruise certificate. I feel sorry for Gae too if there is an issue with her booking, but something tells me she'll sort it out.

 

Gosh, I had NO IDEA that people weren't getting their Earlybird discounts if they used their FCC's! I have no time today or tomorrow to call them but will set Friday aside to get this sorted out! If they tell me that "No you were given incorrect information when you spoke to our employee earlier" then I'll be another one saying "bye, bye RCI". :mad:

 

I've copied and pasted their Terms & Conditions and though I noticed that it WASN'T combinable with a Next or Future Cruise Certificate I read that as the extra ON BOARD CREDIT available on these bookings! We'll see!!

 

BONUS ONBOARD CREDIT

In addition to Earlybird savings, you can receive bonus onboard credit when you book a worldwide cruise of 6 nights or longer that departs between March and December 2014^.

Oceanview US$75 per stateroom

Balcony US$150 per stateroom

Junior Suite US$300 per stateroom

Plus if you book a Europe cruise, enjoy an additional US$100 onboard credit^ to the amounts listed above.

To redeem, please reference promotional code YOURWOW when booking.

 

T&C’s

New Bookings must be made between Wednesday 1 January and Friday 28 February 2014 in order to qualify for the offer.

Offer is not combinable with Closed User; Net/Tactical Net; Gross; Upgrade offers; Interline rates; Going, Going, Gone Sale; Travel Agent; Friends and Family or Employee rates, Crown & Anchor, Shareholder Benefits, Future or NextCruise offers.

Edited January 7, 2014 by gaechann

[CruisinCat31]

 

I was assured a supervisor would apply the early bird discount of $1200 and I would receive another booking email, well i did for the same price as the higher priced FCC booking with just the OBC added!

 

Not happy!

 

Gosh, I had NO IDEA that people weren't getting their Earlybird discounts if they used their FCC's! I have no time today or tomorrow to call them but will set Friday aside to get this sorted out! If they tell me that "No you were given incorrect information when you spoke to our employee earlier" then I'll be another one saying "bye, bye RCI". :mad:

 

So I called them back today to find out what the second booking was they put through on my Next Cruise Certificate yesterday. I was advised that later in the day they determined that the NCC and the Early Bird Discount could be combined, so they proceeded to do this for me and it is still in process, takes a TL to do it.

I asked if they were absolutely sure about this, as I was fine to just keep the booking I made and pay the deposit and use my NCC for another booking, and that I definitely didn't want to pay the higher rate. I was assured it would be amended and the $2000+ discount would definitely be applied. They extended the deposit due date for my original booking until they could get the NCC processed, as I said I wanted to hold onto that booking until it is definitely sorted out. I was advised they will email me when it is fixed.

Hope it does all happen as they have said, and if so that probably means they are working on yours as well Fishtaco and Gae.

[cassamanda]

Well that just throws a spanner in the works doesn't it. Rccl needs to issue an explanatory email or update the website so everyone is in the picture.

I have a certificate I could use now but have held off because of the uncertainty.

 

RCCL ARE YOU READING THIS THREAD? ARE YOU GOING TO ALLOW WOWSALE TO BE APPLIED TO NCC?

 

Sorry about the shouting.

Hugh

[goodycruising]

Maybe this is a case for checking out a specialist online cruise travel agent? I have just checked the website of one we have used, and their price is always the same as RCI, or within an Aussie dollar, and the special early bird rate seems to be showing just fine on their site. We have found them helpful on the phone before, and you don't get put on hold for 45 minutes and transferred to USA. I know we are not allowed to say names on this site, but I would say if you ring one of them and ask the probing questions, like if they say "no" to "can you combine a C&A balcony discount with the OBC credit offered on this early bird sale?", then you might find less stress that way. If they don't know then hang up and go elsewhere. In the past I have said that the travel agent didn't do anything different to RCI online, but the way the RCI website is lately and the length of hold on the phones, I may have to change my statement.

 

I know from our experience we were better off on the early bird sale with the balcony discount at diamond level than the $300 bonus OBC for a cruise next October. We didn't have a on-board booking voucher/certificate, as last November when we cruised we purchased one, thinking that we could buy more on our next cruise later this month. We have since used that on another cruise that we added to that trip, and we of course were too close in time to benefit from the reduced deposit and then had to pay in full the whole trip. We did get the $100 OBC on that cruise, but we thought that we could have used it on the early bird one for $150 OBC as it was a longer trip. It seems like a good thing to have used it for the first trip!

 

So what I am saying is that if you use a C&A balcony discount, plus the early bird special that will certainly work. We understood, but didn't get to try it, that if we had applied an on-board booking bonus certificate the on-board booking bonus OBC would have applied as well, and our deposit would have been $100 each instead of $400 each.

 

It appears that the rules of cancelling a booking and doing another booking on the same ship should not apply if you had never booked this trip before. The on-board booking certificate if open, and not allocated to this booking should not be classed as a booking already made on this trip. Unless you did actually book this particular trip that you are trying to convert to the early bird special rate. Then, I would say you are not going to get the special price.

 

Hope that makes sense. Good luck everyone, and I am sad to hear some people are getting very bad service on this. Booking the cruise should be fun!

[fishtaco]

Personally I never followed any link to an "Earlybird sale" or any sale with my booking.

 

I logged onto RCI and searched for a cruise i new i wanted in "advanced search" and at looking through the "Cruise costs" on a mock booking it showed a $600 pp discount.

 

So I didnt really go for a sale price and the cruise I booked didnt say "sale"

 

I always had intention to book with my FCC, this thread was started because I wanted to ask how it worked?

 

I have emailed RCI with the problem of the extra price with changing over 24 hour hold to FCC. But I wont hold my breath as last time I emailed RCI it took over 4 weeks to reply lol

 

I am not though going to waste my time trying to get through to RCI by phone as they simply cannot handle phone bookings/enquiries and have a very user unfriendly 9-5 Mon-Fri number only:confused:

 

I know many here wouldnt cruise Carnival USA but in comparison they have a 24 hour 7 day a week booking number so if you have any reservations about your booking you can just call them at your leisure without the stress, the calls to USA cost less than $2.00

 

RCI should really take a leaf out of Carnivals book!

Edited January 8, 2014 by fishtaco
Grammer (everything I write is off the cuff)

[CruisinCat31]

Good luck everyone, and I am sad to hear some people are getting very bad service on this. Booking the cruise should be fun!

 

I have actually never had bad service booking with RCI direct, I usually do it online and if I ever call I get through within a few minutes maximum. Today I had to wait for 7 minutes, which is the longest I have ever waited. Maybe I've just been lucky? I think the rep I spoke to yesterday could have just left my booking in place and not worried about the NCC as I went ahead and made the booking without it, and was prepared to pay the $1600 deposit. He knew I would have loved to use my NCC if possible (mainly so I wouldn't have to pay the deposit!), and I suppose he followed up after I was on the phone and found out it could be applied and was trying to help me out? Who knows, but it's always fun!!:D

 

Anyway, I just realised I will see you KJ, and Hugh, onboard Radiance in a couple of weeks for our Tassie Cruise. Not long to go:)

[fishtaco]

I have actually never had bad service booking with RCI direct, I usually do it online and if I ever call I get through within a few minutes maximum. Today I had to wait for 7 minutes, which is the longest I have ever waited. Maybe I've just been lucky? I think the rep I spoke to yesterday could have just left my booking in place and not worried about the NCC as I went ahead and made the booking without it, and was prepared to pay the $1600 deposit. He knew I would have loved to use my NCC if possible (mainly so I wouldn't have to pay the deposit!), and I suppose he followed up after I was on the phone and found out it could be applied and was trying to help me out? Who knows, but it's always fun!!:D

 

Anyway, I just realised I will see you KJ, and Hugh, onboard Radiance in a couple of weeks for our Tassie Cruise. Not long to go:)

 

Gee you were lucky! 3 days on the phone to RCI AU have had me patched through to the USA and that was only "Once" all other times have said " sorry but we are very busy and cannot put you in a queue, please call back again another time"

 

Personal experience I suppose? If you had a troubling question like mine perhaps you would notice the huge bank up of unanswerable calls going on?

[fishtaco]

Gosh, I had NO IDEA that people weren't getting their Earlybird discounts if they used their FCC's! I have no time today or tomorrow to call them but will set Friday aside to get this sorted out! If they tell me that "No you were given incorrect information when you spoke to our employee earlier" then I'll be another one saying "bye, bye RCI". :mad:

 

I've copied and pasted their Terms & Conditions and though I noticed that it WASN'T combinable with a Next or Future Cruise Certificate I read that as the extra ON BOARD CREDIT available on these bookings! We'll see!!

 

BONUS ONBOARD CREDIT

In addition to Earlybird savings, you can receive bonus onboard credit when you book a worldwide cruise of 6 nights or longer that departs between March and December 2014^.

Oceanview US$75 per stateroom

Balcony US$150 per stateroom

Junior Suite US$300 per stateroom

Plus if you book a Europe cruise, enjoy an additional US$100 onboard credit^ to the amounts listed above.

To redeem, please reference promotional code YOURWOW when booking.

 

T&C’s

New Bookings must be made between Wednesday 1 January and Friday 28 February 2014 in order to qualify for the offer.

Offer is not combinable with Closed User; Net/Tactical Net; Gross; Upgrade offers; Interline rates; Going, Going, Gone Sale; Travel Agent; Friends and Family or Employee rates, Crown & Anchor, Shareholder Benefits, Future or NextCruise offers.

 

Yes Gae I thought that any RCI sale prices only related to the "Exrta OBC" offered over and above that you would normally get with FCC,s.

 

If in fact it does turn out to be no discount ( or jacked up price) for FCC holders then FCC,s aren't worth the paper they are written on let alone the $100 you pay up front for them!

Edited January 8, 2014 by fishtaco

[gaechann]

Personally I never followed any link to an "Earlybird sale" or any sale with my booking.

I logged onto RCI and searched for a cruise i new i wanted in "advanced search" and at looking through the "Cruise costs" on a mock booking it showed a $600 pp discount.

So I didnt really go for a sale price and the cruise I booked didnt say "sale" I DID THE SAME!

 

I always had intention to book with my FCC, this thread was started because I wanted to ask how it worked?

 

I have emailed RCI with the problem of the extra price with changing over 24 hour hold to FCC. But I wont hold my breath as last time I emailed RCI it took over 4 weeks to reply lolWELL, YOU WON'T GET YOUR PROBLEM RESOLVED VIA EMAIL - Best to keep on calling them - the squeaky wheel .......

 

I am not though going to waste my time trying to get through to RCI by phone as they simply cannot handle phone bookings/enquiries and have a very user unfriendly 9-5 Mon-Fri number only:confused:

 

I know many here wouldnt cruise Carnival USA but in comparison they have a 24 hour 7 day a week booking number so if you have any reservations about your booking you can just call them at your leisure without the stress, the calls to USA cost less than $2.00

 

RCI should really take a leaf out of Carnivals book!

 

Yes, the customer service with RCI is NOT up to scratch at all. I'm sure the lack of CS turns many off dealing with them directly.

 

I've dealt with Travel Agents in the past that had to go through all this grief with them, this time I thought to do it personally as I had the time to search for the cruise I was after.

 

Anyway, I have the original email they sent with the CORRECT price, I have the operators name (& office details in the US) that assured me that when I rang to have my Future Cruise Certificate applied to this booking I would still be entitled to the Discounts received when I put the cruise On-Hold so tomorrow I'll call and annoy and annoy them until it's all put right for me - OR ELSE I'll ditch them as my preferred cruiseline and let hundreds, maybe thousands that read these threads know.

 

Watch this space!! :)

 

Gae

Edited January 8, 2014 by gaechann

[fishtaco]

Hi Gae and others, RCI emailed me back today and have now applied the $600 PP Early Bird discount to my FCC booking:)

 

It was a pretty quick reply as it was only yesterday I sent the email.

 

Perhaps thats why the phone lines are so busy?

 

So apologies For saying not so nice things about RCI in this thread:o

[cassamanda]

Hi Gae and others, RCI emailed me back today and have now applied the $600 PP Early Bird discount to my FCC booking:)

 

It was a pretty quick reply as it was only yesterday I sent the email.

 

Perhaps thats why the phone lines are so busy?

 

So apologies For saying not so nice things about RCI in this thread:o

 

That's good news.

 

Do you think they applied the discount because you made a noise or do you think rccl will apply the discount to all Next cruise certificates. If the latter is the case, I will give it a go tonight and hope my preferred cabin is still avail.

 

Regards, Hugh

[CruisinCat31]

Hi Gae and others, RCI emailed me back today and have now applied the $600 PP Early Bird discount to my FCC booking:)

 

It was a pretty quick reply as it was only yesterday I sent the email.

 

Perhaps thats why the phone lines are so busy?

 

So apologies For saying not so nice things about RCI in this thread:o

 

Great News:D

[gaechann]

Hi Gae and others, RCI emailed me back today and have now applied the $600 PP Early Bird discount to my FCC booking:)

 

It was a pretty quick reply as it was only yesterday I sent the email.

 

Perhaps thats why the phone lines are so busy?

 

So apologies For saying not so nice things about RCI in this thread:o

 

Great news! I'll be calling them tomorrow to have my booking corrected as well.

 

Gae

[fishtaco]

That's good news.

 

Do you think they applied the discount because you made a noise or do you think rccl will apply the discount to all Next cruise certificates. If the latter is the case, I will give it a go tonight and hope my preferred cabin is still avail.

 

Regards, Hugh

 

Even though I do tend to over react on forums I am sure cruise lines dont take any notice of my posts on CC:D

 

I read the sale rules as Gae did, Its for new bookings only, yes that is correct but most FCC,s are not actually a booking unless you have chosen a cruise whilst onboard.

 

The booking conditions I think relate to the OBC, you get OBC with a FCC so you cant get more with a sale that includes OBC, most OBC is not combinable with other deals.

 

The phone rep assured me that I would get the discount and I did so therefore it seems you can use a FCC for a sale price:)

 

Go forth and book:D

[Aussie FF]

Hi there.

We have had the same problems described in this thread.

We tried to cancel and rebook to get the sale price, with and without a NCC.

We ended up with multiple bookings on Radiance next Christmas. We'll just wait until they ask for some money, then tell them they have stuffed it up.

We totally cancelled Voyager, November, Singapore to Sydney, because they kept promising they would apply the discount, but twice e-mailed with a HIGHER quote.:eek:

They just keep making promises, but don't follow through.

Back before our round Australia cruise on Radiance in October/November I did a paid upgrade to a RFS, and it took about 12 phone calls for them to get it right. And I don't believe they would have if we didn't keep hassling them.:mad:

We have let them know they are in danger of losing us, and I think others should do the same.

[goodycruising]

I have actually never had bad service booking with RCI direct, I usually do it online and if I ever call I get through within a few minutes maximum. Today I had to wait for 7 minutes, which is the longest I have ever waited. Maybe I've just been lucky?

 

Anyway, I just realised I will see you KJ, and Hugh, onboard Radiance in a couple of weeks for our Tassie Cruise. Not long to go:)

 

7 minutes! What time of day was that please. We want to ring but have not had a spare hour to put aside the last few days. It used to be good, so hopefully it is going back to better timings. I don't mind waiting occasionally, but it was getting silly.

 

We look forward to catching up! We will be doing QLD first, and this will be our first B2B :D Getting close now!!!!

[bvm49]

Last year our overseas holiday included 3 cruises – B2B on Celebrity and a cruise with Royal Caribbean.

 

When we booked the B2B with our travel agent who is owned by RCI, we were told we could use our Celebrity Future Cruise certificates. Although we had been assured when we purchased them on our last RCI cruise that we could use them on any future cruise regardless of the deal offered; we were surprised to be told after our final payment was made that they were not allowed.

 

The reason given by RCI’s Australian office for taking back our on-board credit was (quote):

“The Next & Future Cruise bookings made onboard are not combinable with certain fares available in the market. It appears that the booking made by Cruise1st for Celebrity Infinity has been made on one of these restricted fares and is therefore not combinable with the booking made onboard. We advised Cruise1st on 7th December 2012 that the certificate was not combinable with your booking, I regret that they did not pass this information to you straight away.” (Note: my underlining of the word "appears").

 

The price we paid was the same as advertised by several travel agents at the time. It was certainly not cheap at AUD 1849 (slightly more in USD at the time) each for an inside cabin.

 

After several phone calls and emails between us, the RCI office and their travel agent, we were offered two choices – use the certificates but lose the $200 on-board credit or pay an extra $200 and keep the certificates. As we felt that it would be unlikely that we would ever pay the brochure price in the future, we took the first option.

 

To make matters worse we were also refused an on-board credit as shareholders for the same reason!

 

During the cruise we were surprised to receive two complimentary champagne bottles and flowers. Also each formal night, chocolate coated strawberries were delivered to our room. After discussing our problem of having our on-board credit taken off us, we were assured by our fellow passengers that this didn't happen to Americans. As a result, we raised our disappointment with the Future Cruise and the Captain’s Club consultants. After still not receiving any satisfaction, we then approached David Gross, the Guest relations Manager who listened patiently to our complaint. Unfortunately he also received a negative reply to his email to RCI Australia but did confirm that our “VIP” status was to try and pacify us. Surly it would have been better to have reinstated our on-board credit of $200?

[gaechann]

7 minutes! What time of day was that please. We want to ring but have not had a spare hour to put aside the last few days. It used to be good, so hopefully it is going back to better timings. I don't mind waiting occasionally, but it was getting silly.

 

Here's my experience after calling the RCI office this morning:

 

I only had to wait 7 minutes when I called at 11.00am Perhaps that is the maximum they allow you to wait! If so, it's a REAL improvement on the 30-45 minutes you used to be on hold.

 

I was patched through to an office in Guatamala (again) where I spoke to Hugo and explained my problem of receiving various Invoices from their office, all of which were up to twice the quoted prices that I first received.

 

He took all the details of my 2 bookings including the original quoted prices and promised that it would be rectified if I would be happy to be put on hold for a few minutes. Well, 20 minutes later he said that "Yes, it will be fixed within the next 10 days as our Revenue Department has to make the corrections after which they will send you the corrected Invoices."

 

I stated that others had had their corrections made on the spot but he said that it's a matter for the Revenue Department but to be reassured that all relevant discounts will be applied and apologised for the fact that each Invoice I've been receiving since I converted the original booking numbers to my Future Cruise Certificate numbers had INCREASED in price each time!

 

I told him I'd check back this time next week if I haven't received the corrections before then. The squeaky wheel ......... :rolleyes:

 

Gae

[fishtaco]

I am sure you will get it or why would I:confused:

 

I still think is all about corrections to the OBC.

 

The person in USA told me that there were plenty of places available for Traditional Dinning and booked me in, she also removed pre paid grats as she said it was ok to go with Daily Auto,s.

 

My new discounted booking now includes the pre paids and I am now on Waitlist for Traditional Dinning? I am sure they just dont trust us Aussies to pay the tips:D

 

I really dont care if I daily Auto or pre pay but I do still want Traditional Dinning.

[campingman]

I am sure you will get it or why would I:confused:

 

I still think is all about corrections to the OBC.

 

The person in USA told me that there were plenty of places available for Traditional Dinning and booked me in, she also removed pre paid grats as she said it was ok to go with Daily Auto,s.

 

My new discounted booking now includes the pre paids and I am now on Waitlist for Traditional Dinning? I am sure they just dont trust us Aussies to pay the tips:D

 

I really dont care if I daily Auto or pre pay but I do still want Traditional Dinning.

 

Sad because My Time is superb with choice.Its a matter of organising yourself and whom you want to dine with and talking quietly to the Maitre D.Its called choice.We regularly cruise and a group of about 12 would not go back to Traditional.