No dress up

[LetsGetWet!]

Here we go....it is your opinion that the way someone dresses represents either "good" or "bad" manners.

 

Cutting in line adversely affects my cruise experience...you're wasting my time. Saving seats adversely affects my cruise experience...you're not allowing me equal access to a seat. Smoking on the balcony adversely affects my cruise experience....the smoke makes me have sinus issues.

 

There is no tangible argument how someone's dress adversely affects you. You just don't like it.

As an engineer I was taught to consider the edge or boundary examples to test the validity of a hypothesis or theory. Your hypothesis or theory is "there is no tangible argument how someone's dress adversely affects you. So lets take a boundary example. You're going out for a nice dinner at an upscale restaurant - it may be an occasion, perhaps you're celebrating an anniversary or her birthday. So, you've both spent time dressing such that you look nice and appropriate for the venue and pleasing to each other. Now when you arrive at the restaurant, you find that virtually everyone else is in t-shirts with cutesy but somewhat crude sayings, ragged cutoff jeans, flip flops and dirty ballcaps worn backwards. That's the environment and ambiance you find yourselves surrounded with. You can honestly say that would have absolutely no tangible effect on the enjoyment of the evening you had planned together?

[comxkid]

As an engineer I was taught to consider the edge or boundary examples to test the validity of a hypothesis or theory. Your hypothesis or theory is "there is no tangible argument how someone's dress adversely affects you. So lets take a boundary example. You're going out for a nice dinner at an upscale restaurant - it may be an occasion, perhaps you're celebrating an anniversary or her birthday. So, you've both spent time dressing such that you look nice and appropriate for the venue and pleasing to each other. Now when you arrive at the restaurant, you find that virtually everyone else is in t-shirts with cutesy but somewhat crude sayings, ragged cutoff jeans, flip flops and dirty ballcaps worn backwards. That's the environment and ambiance you find yourselves surrounded with. You can honestly say that would have absolutely no tangible effect on the enjoyment of the evening you had planned together?

 

I'll play.

 

First, I would have done my research on the restaurant to determine how upscale it truly is. Based on the fact that the vast majority of people were in t-shirts, ragged cut-off jeans, flip flops and dirty hats, I would theorize that this is truly not an "upscale" restaurant and chosen to take my business elsewhere.

 

Given all that, if my research on the original restaurant determined that it truly was an "upscale" restaurant and then I showed up and found that maybe 10% to 20% of the people were not dressed appropriately, I would make a comment such as "...interesting, I wonder what's going on?" Then I would proceed to have an enjoyable dinner with my dinner companions. IMO, this is how the vast majority of our society would react.

[LetsGetWet!]

I'll play.

 

First, I would have done my research on the restaurant to determine how upscale it truly is. Based on the fact that the vast majority of people were in t-shirts, ragged cut-off jeans, flip flops and dirty hats, I would theorize that this is truly not an "upscale" restaurant and chosen to take my business elsewhere.

 

Given all that, if my research on the original restaurant determined that it truly was an "upscale" restaurant and then I showed up and found that maybe 10% to 20% of the people were not dressed appropriately, I would make a comment such as "...interesting, I wonder what's going on?" Then I would proceed to have an enjoyable dinner with my dinner companions. IMO, this is how the vast majority of our society would react.

So in other words, you refuse to answer the question regarding the "edge condition" as I explained it?

 

To put it simpler, if virtually everyone were dressed that way, except the two of you - would that affect your evening in a tangible way? If you admit that that "edge or boundary condition would have a tangible effect, than it follows that 10-20% being dressed that way also results in a tangible, although smaller effect. Which is my point - you made a claim that there is "no tangible effect" on you based on how those around you dress, and I claim that's false. It doesn't "ruin your evening" or anything as drastic/dramatic, but it DOES have a tangible, negative effect on the ambiance of the evening.

[setsail]

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=2000971

[DrD]

Here we go....it is your opinion that the way someone dresses represents either "good" or "bad" manners.

 

Cutting in line adversely affects my cruise experience...you're wasting my time. Saving seats adversely affects my cruise experience...you're not allowing me equal access to a seat. Smoking on the balcony adversely affects my cruise experience....the smoke makes me have sinus issues.

 

There is no tangible argument how someone's dress adversely affects you. You just don't like it.

 

I've always wondered if such posts are disingenuous or ignorant, I favor the former.

 

It is quite apparent that "group dressing" is something that people enjoy as evidenced by the fact that it exists for wedding, banquets, benefits, proms, etc. There's something pleasant about seeing others dressed up and it creates a sense of community and togetherness. As you are surely aware dress codes do exist and do so for a reason.

 

Furthermore many people including myself have posted that it does indeed decrease our enjoyment (not a lot mind you.) It is not necessary for you to understand why this is but you should accept it and move on. Many customs and mores are not based on any "tangible argument." (not sure how you can feel an argument unless it's a fight I guess.)

 

So while I can understand why some people simply do not want to make the effort despite knowing they will be bothering others, let's please not pretend that we don't have the "right" to be bothered. And yes cutting in line is a more severe offense in my opinion but the example is valid qualitatively if not quantitatively.

 

There's a dress code in my office as at most offices. Why? Can it be explained logically?

Edited March 13, 2014 by DrD

[comxkid]

So in other words, you refuse to answer the question regarding the "edge condition" as I explained it?

 

To put it simpler, if virtually everyone were dressed that way, except the two of you - would that affect your evening in a tangible way? If you admit that that "edge or boundary condition would have a tangible effect, than it follows that 10-20% being dressed that way also results in a tangible, although smaller effect. Which is my point - you made a claim that there is "no tangible effect" on you based on how those around you dress, and I claim that's false. It doesn't "ruin your evening" or anything as drastic/dramatic, but it DOES have a tangible, negative effect on the ambiance of the evening.

 

I'm not refusing to answer any question. In my case (and many others on this board), there is simply no tangible effect. As long as the food is good and the service is spot on, I'm good. You can say that is false, but you do not have the empirical evidence to back up your hypothesis.

[TC1957]

I've always wondered if such posts are disingenuous or ignorant, I favor the former.

 

It is quite apparent that "group dressing" is something that people enjoy as evidenced by the fact that it exists for wedding, banquets, benefits, proms, etc. There's something pleasant about seeing others dressed up and it creates a sense of community and togetherness. As you are surely aware dress codes do exist and do so for a reason.

 

Furthermore many people including myself have posted that it does indeed decrease our enjoyment (not a lot mind you.) It is not necessary for you to understand why this is but you should accept it and move on. Many customs and mores are not based on any "tangible argument." (not sure how you can feel an argument unless it's a fight I guess.)

 

So while I can understand why some people simply do not want to make the effort despite knowing they will be bothering others, let's please not pretend that we don't have the "right" to be bothered. And yes cutting in line is a more severe offense in my opinion but the example is valid qualitatively if not quantitatively.

 

There's a dress code in my office as at most offices. Why? Can it be explained logically?

 

First...you keep saying "dress code" but RCI does not have a dress code...they simply suggest certain attire. Look up the words "code" and "suggest" and you will find they are entirely different.

 

Secondly...there is only one human on the planet that can impact how you feel, your emotions and/or your level of enjoyment at any event...and that person is YOU. How you CHOOSE to react, be it internally or externally, is the only thing that can impact you or your experience. You may not want to admit it, but it is fact.

[DrD]

I'm not refusing to answer any question. In my case (and many others on this board), there is simply no tangible effect. As long as the food is good and the service is spot on, I'm good. You can say that is false, but you do not have the empirical evidence to back up your hypothesis.

 

So for you there's no effect, for others there is. Just as many are not bothered by topless sunbathing, but some are, so it's not permitted. The very definition of politeness is avoiding things that bother other people, not things that bother you.

 

I for one would not accuse you of falsely stating it doesn't change your experience, but by the same token you should trust and respect the opinion of those of us who say it does detract from our experience (again, for me, not a lot, and I don't think it's a huge deal. But I confess I'm not always perfect in my own conduct towards others, although I don't try to justify it by long "logical" arguments about how my behavior should not bother others. I just admit that sometimes I'm a selfish jerk but overall I'm ok so I can live with it.)

[DrD]

First...you keep saying "dress code" but RCI does not have a dress code...they simply suggest certain attire. Look up the words "code" and "suggest" and you will find they are entirely different.

 

Secondly...there is only one human on the planet that can impact how you feel, your emotions and/or your level of enjoyment at any event...and that person is YOU. How you CHOOSE to react, be it internally or externally, is the only thing that can impact you or your experience. You may not want to admit it, but it is fact.

 

That's exactly my point from further back, that many common things are not "rules," such as no cutting in line, etc.

 

"Dress code" can and commonly does refer to an expectation or suggestion rather than a rule. From wikipedia:

 

Dress codes are written and, more often, unwritten rules with regard to clothing.

 

And as I tell my kids a "suggestion" is often a polite way of saying "do it." So a "suggested attire" is quite correctly interpreted by many if not most to mean that is how you should dress for the event in question. Dress code is just a convenient and shorter way to say "suggested dress." It doesn't mean code as in laws.

 

And the "choice" argument is simply too zen for me, of course it's true, but one could say the same thing about anything ad absurdem. For example the poop cruise, according to you that would be fine as one can simply choose to be delighted by all the lovely feces everywhere.

 

So yes I realize attitude is important but to justify rude behavior by saying "just choose to not be bothered" is pretty darn silly.

Edited March 13, 2014 by DrD

[comxkid]

I've always wondered if such posts are disingenuous or ignorant, I favor the former.

 

It is quite apparent that "group dressing" is something that people enjoy as evidenced by the fact that it exists for wedding, banquets, benefits, proms, etc. There's something pleasant about seeing others dressed up and it creates a sense of community and togetherness. As you are surely aware dress codes do exist and do so for a reason.

 

Furthermore many people including myself have posted that it does indeed decrease our enjoyment (not a lot mind you.) It is not necessary for you to understand why this is but you should accept it and move on. Many customs and mores are not based on any "tangible argument." (not sure how you can feel an argument unless it's a fight I guess.)

 

So while I can understand why some people simply do not want to make the effort despite knowing they will be bothering others, let's please not pretend that we don't have the "right" to be bothered. And yes cutting in line is a more severe offense in my opinion but the example is valid qualitatively if not quantitatively.

 

There's a dress code in my office as at most offices. Why? Can it be explained logically?

 

I do love being talked down to by the "experts" on this forum.

 

The facts are the vast majority of people dress in an appropriate manner in MDR...much in the same manner as one would for each of the occasions mentioned in your response.

 

I would also state that the vast majority of the cruising public could care less what someone else is wearing (based on the commentary provided in these forums).

 

So the issue is that a small (but vocal) minority of cruisers are letting their level of enjoyment be adversely affected by another small minority of cruisers who don't dress to the first group's level of expectation. Group #1 should accept the fact that Group #2 is going to wear what they want to wear and move on. Does Group #1 have the "right" to be bothered. Of course. But what does that solve?

 

Regarding the dress code in your office....can I explain it logically? Yes. You're the boss. You set and enforce the rules. RCCL has chosen not to do this in their "office".

[comxkid]

Per Proverbs 26:4, I have a self-imposed limit of 15 posts per discussion.

[LetsGetWet!]

First...you keep saying "dress code" but RCI does not have a dress code...

You keep saying RCI does not have a dress code, but they do. Its not a mandatory dress code, but its referred to a dress code both in the FAQ's on the RCI website, as well as in a blog on the subject written by Adam Goldstein. I'd say if the company and its CEO choose to call it a dress code, its disingenuous for you to try to correct people here who refer to it the same way as the company and its CEO refer to it.

I'm not refusing to answer any question. In my case (and many others on this board), there is simply no tangible effect. As long as the food is good and the service is spot on, I'm good. You can say that is false, but you do not have the empirical evidence to back up your hypothesis.

True. I have exactly the same amount of empirical evidence to back up my hypothesis as you do to back up your hypothesis. Because yours is no more fact than mine is.

Edited March 13, 2014 by LetsGetWet!

[TC1957]

And the "choice" argument is simply too zen for me, of course it's true, but one could say the same thing about anything ad absurdem. For example the poop cruise, according to you that would be fine as one can simply choose to be delighted by all the lovely feces everywhere.

 

 

Serious question...were you trying to be idiotic with this comment or did it simply occur naturally?

 

Comparing having feces everywhere to what someone chooses to wear is the most asinine thing I have seen in the last decade.

 

Having human feces everywhere puts the health of everyone on the ship at risk. Given the correct parameters it could even be fatal. I seriously doubt someone choosing to wear Dockers and a polo into a dining room that probably seats 1,000 people on the same evening you choose to wear a tux will put the health of anyone at risk.

 

It is that type of extremism that makes ardent proponents of formal attire here look like fools...in my opinion.

Edited March 13, 2014 by TC1957

[LetsGetWet!]

Agreed again. Your two bad examples stray firmly into "name calling" which makes them unarguably bad!

Agree completely. But those are generally the type of opinions that are offered on both sides of this issue.

Yep, no doubt... :o

Serious question...were you trying to be idiotic with this comment or did it simply occur naturally?

 

Comparing having feces everywhere to what someone chooses to wear is the most asinine thing I have seen in the last decade.

 

Having human feces everywhere puts the health of everyone on the ship at risk. Given the correct parameters it could even be fatal. I seriously doubt someone choosing to wear Dockers and a polo into a dining room that probably seats 1,000 people on the same evening you choose to wear a tux will put the health of anyone at risk.

 

It is that type of extremism that makes ardent proponents of formal attire here look like fools...in my opinion.

[happygran]

This thread is getting silly!

 

OK some like to get dressed up and others don't..........each to their own!

 

Don't keep going on about it.

[Morecruisesplz]

This thread is getting silly!

 

OK some like to get dressed up and others don't..........each to their own!

 

Don't keep going on about it.

 

Each to their own when picking a vacation and/or a cruise line. BUT once you have picked, follow their polices. It's to late then to while about "it's my vacation I'll do what I want." When the cruise line gives you an option of a place to eat in the "comfort of your t-shirt, shorts and flip flops" then use it if you can live with the MDR polices. The signs at the door say no hats, no shorts, etc. --- follow the rules or do not go in. It's that simple!

[pkflamingo]

These are almost exactly what I wear, except I have red, blue, and green ones and I don't wear shoes or a jacket with them. And I have to agree that RCI cares unevenly because I have no reason to doubt those that say they have seen people turned away but I have been on a fair number of cruises and a fair number of different type ships, and have worn shorts a lot and have never had a word said to me about it

 

 

They look like they lost their pants to me. Haha:D

[Morecruisesplz]

These are almost exactly what I wear, except I have red, blue, and green ones and I don't wear shoes or a jacket with them. And I have to agree that RCI cares unevenly because I have no reason to doubt those that say they have seen people turned away but I have been on a fair number of cruises and a fair number of different type ships, and have worn shorts a lot and have never had a word said to me about it

 

Believe me, RCI cares. No one says anything because those who would are the same people to whom you pay tips. RCI tries to resolve this dilemma (having rules enforced by staff who depends on tips for their living) by posting a sign at every MDR entrance stating the rules: which clearly state no hats, no shorts, etc. The problem is that RCI 1.) thinks you can read and 2.) thinks that if you know the rules you will care enough to follow them.

 

You can go on and on about how no one has said anything to you but what do you expect? Maybe a medal for successfully breaking the rules?

[Tommyg74]

Believe me, RCI cares. No one says anything because those who would are the same people to whom you pay tips. RCI tries to resolve this dilemma (having rules enforced by staff who depends on tips for their living) by posting a sign at every MDR entrance stating the rules: which clearly state no hats, no shorts, etc. The problem is that RCI 1.) thinks you can read and 2.) thinks that if you know the rules you will care enough to follow them.

 

You can go on and on about how no one has said anything to you but what do you expect? Maybe a medal for successfully breaking the rules?

 

So you are going to tell us, that you follow EVERY rule 100% of the time. Not just on the ship, everywhere, all the time!!!! I say BULL.

[Folk Singer]

I think there is also9 a difference to "dress code" depending on the cruise. I have done quite a few Transatlantic cruises and formal nights were pretty formal - a lot of tuxes and gowns and pretty dressed up most other nights too.

 

But a 7 night (or shorter) Caribbean cruise then I wouldn't expect to see people in formal dress at all.

 

However, as a card carrying Brit, I don't think ball caps have any place at the dinner table no matter where you are!!

 

 

agree with regards to ball caps.

[galavant3]

agree with regards to ball caps.

 

Agree also! This is the only issue I've seen the dining room staff address. It is so simple to remind someone to remove their hat as they enter the dining room. Much easier than asking them to return to their cabin and change clothes.

[nbsjcruiser]

First...you keep saying "dress code" but RCI does not have a dress code...they simply suggest certain attire. Look up the words "code" and "suggest" and you will find they are entirely different.

 

For what its worth, on our recent cruise on the Indy, a guy showed to the MDR up with a wife-beater on and was not allowed entry. Despite his protests, he was turned away.

[bigque]

For what its worth, on our recent cruise on the Indy, a guy showed to the MDR up with a wife-beater on and was not allowed entry. Despite his protests, he was turned away.

 

I have seen those not allowed in also!

[CruiseTobey]

It is quite apparent that "group dressing" is something that people enjoy as evidenced by the fact that it exists for wedding, banquets, benefits, proms, etc. There's something pleasant about seeing others dressed up and it creates a sense of community and togetherness. As you are surely aware dress codes do exist and do so for a reason.

 

Furthermore many people including myself have posted that it does indeed decrease our enjoyment (not a lot mind you.) It is not necessary for you to understand why this is but you should accept it and move on. Many customs and mores are not based on any "tangible argument." (not sure how you can feel an argument unless it's a fight I guess.)

 

 

Boom. And there you have it. Proof that seeing others in non-formal dress "decreases the enjoyment" of those who choose to do so.

 

LetsGetWet, are you taking notes? What engineering psycho-babble will you use to get out of this one?

Edited March 14, 2014 by CruiseTobey

[LetsGetWet!]

Boom. And there you have it. Proof that seeing others in non-formal dress "decreases the enjoyment" of those who choose to do so.

 

LetsGetWet, are you taking notes? What engineering psycho-babble will you use to get out of this one?

Typical response... Nothing for me to "get out of." He most definitely didn't say it would "ruin his cruise" or even "ruin his dinner", did he? No he didn't, far from it... :rolleyes: What "psycho-babble" will you use to try to claim otherwise?