Is Carnival Falling Behind?

[Big_G]

Mainly because my signature is so big. :rolleyes: When I comment multiple times on a single page I disable my signature on all subsequent posts so I don't take up too much space.:rolleyes:

 

OK. Wasn't sure if CC was doing that or you. I always enjoy your pics. Thanks.

[Hendricks Clan]

Mainly because my signature is so big. :rolleyes: When I comment multiple times on a single page I disable my signature on all subsequent posts so I don't take up too much space.:rolleyes:

 

While I've never been on DCL, that is one nice picture!

[Warm Breezes]

I believe LMaxwell is trying to say that if all you've experienced was CCL, you have no basis to say that another cruise line couldn't better meet your vacation needs. I'm not trying to say that another cruise line will be better for anyone, but you can't possibly be sure if you have no other experience.

I have always been satisfied with dinner at Outback Steakhouse, but that doesn't mean that I couldn't be just as happy or happier with Longhorn Steakhouse or Morton's steakhouse.

 

But if what you are purchasing meets or exceeds you expectations for the price you are paying and you have no desire to purchase something else, does that mean you are missing out? For some people there is a comfort and joy in the known. It doesn't matter if there is something else out there that would make you just as happy or happier if you are pleased with what you got. I can understand that. It's not me when it comes to cruising, but I can understand it.

 

We do sail different ships and lines because we like to see what is out there and when we are booking a vacation we don't limit ourselves that way. But Carnival is the line we come back to the most because they most often have the ship that meets our wants for a particular vacation and they have always met or exceeded our expectations for what we paid for. If I were the type of person who took pleasure and comfort in the known when it comes to cruising, then I probably wouldn't look for another line either. I am that way when comes to weekday breakfast. I have stopped at the same place for breakfast for the past 10 years on my way to work and gotten the same thing everyday. They have me on a tab and start making it for me as soon as walk in. I don't have to say a word. Are there other places or other items that I would like just as well, if not more? Maybe. Probably. But I don't care. I am happy with the breakfast I get. It is fast, on my way to work, and I like it a lot. Why would I waste my time looking for something else when I am extremely satisfied with what I have?

 

Some people are just like that when it comes to cruises. Who is anyone else to tell them they are wrong and something else might be better for them? Why should they care if they are extremely happy with what they have? We are all different, with different needs and wants. Choice is good.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Warm Breezes

[LMaxwell]

 

Some people are just like that when it comes to cruises. Who is anyone else to tell them they are wrong and something else might be better for them? Why should they care if they are extremely happy with what they have? We are all different, with different needs and wants. Choice is good.

 

I certainly have NO problem with that. Your money, your choice. I just find it odd the number derogatory comments in this thread from people who do NOT have the experience to really know one way or the other.

 

And this also isn't a thread about whether you should prefer what you prefer or prefer what I prefer, or something else entirely. It asked is Carnival falling behind? In terms of innovation, absolutely, Carnival is falling behind. That's not a put down against you or anyone else, or even Carnival as a company, it's just something pretty apparent to see. They are not innovative. They are focused on providing the basics in order to keep costs low.

 

I used to find Carnival a great value. But they cheapened the experience too much. I don't want the cheapest vacation I can get...and often times Carnival is NOT the cheapest anyways; I want good value. Carnival can certainly make changes on existing ships that would represent good value and/or innovation but they choose not to. Isn't that the definition of "falling behind"?

 

It wasn't my intention to call in to question yours or anyone elses tastes or choices in how to spend your discretionary money.

[stevenr597]

The purpose of this thread was not to take a poll about whether one like Carnival better than RCCL, or is the ship you sail on the best.

 

The point is that the cruise industry like the hospitality industry is constantly changing. For many years Carnival has led the way with a fair price for a cruise and with ships that were "fun to be on." They had very imaginative decorating, the ships were fairly large and quite clean. The shows were among the best of the cruise industry. Eating in the MDR you could depend on a friendly crew, great service and great food.

 

RCCL and NCL have tried first to compete with and the surpass Carnival. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, I do feel that when Carnival had a change in management at the top, they endeavored to go in a different direction with price, not quality, being the major determinent.

 

I do feel that Carnival has lost its "edge." Wheter closing the dining room for breakfast and lunch and calling it a "Comedy Brunch" or reducing the number of performers on stage and having then interact with a pre-arrange "movie". Whether taking the Supper Club and making it into a Steak-House, or doing away with Sushi in the main area of the ship served before dinner. In many cases you harldy see the room stewart and you have to ask him for ice. Changes made by Carnival are often a reaction to changes in the industry, rather than leading the way.

 

The purpose of this Thread to to give people the opportunity to express where they feel Carnival has been and where it is going, not to say who is better.

[jimbo5544]

This thread is talking about Carnival cruise line not Carnival Corp. So bring up Cunard et al. is a moot point.

 

I get your point but I do not think the point is moot. Carnival Corps plan is to use those other lines (Costa, Princess, Hal, Cunard, P&O etc)in those other locations. Part of the reason they acquired them.

[Aquahound]

Those huge Mall Of The Seas ships have no interest to me whatsoever, but if that's your cup of tea, have at it...

 

I ask this with all sincerity. According to your sig, you've sailed Dream twice. How could anyone who is attracted to Carnival's Dream Class make such a statement about another line's large ships? That makes no sense to me. :confused: What would attract you to a ship like Dream, but you would find so unattractive about Voyager, Freedom, Quantum or even Oasis?

Edited May 14, 2014 by Aquahound

[Hendricks Clan]

The purpose of this thread was not to take a poll about whether one like Carnival better than RCCL, or is the ship you sail on the best.

 

The point is that the cruise industry like the hospitality industry is constantly changing. For many years Carnival has led the way with a fair price for a cruise and with ships that were "fun to be on." They had very imaginative decorating, the ships were fairly large and quite clean. The shows were among the best of the cruise industry. Eating in the MDR you could depend on a friendly crew, great service and great food.

 

RCCL and NCL have tried first to compete with and the surpass Carnival. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, I do feel that when Carnival had a change in management at the top, they endeavored to go in a different direction with price, not quality, being the major determinent.

 

I do feel that Carnival has lost its "edge." Wheter closing the dining room for breakfast and lunch and calling it a "Comedy Brunch" or reducing the number of performers on stage and having then interact with a pre-arrange "movie". Whether taking the Supper Club and making it into a Steak-House, or doing away with Sushi in the main area of the ship served before dinner. In many cases you harldy see the room stewart and you have to ask him for ice. Changes made by Carnival are often a reaction to changes in the industry, rather than leading the way.

 

The purpose of this Thread to to give people the opportunity to express where they feel Carnival has been and where it is going, not to say who is better.

 

Exactly. CCL and NCL both had a change in management with in a couple years of each other. CCL went one way and Kevin Sheehan went another with NCL. NCL went from a debt loaded company always loosing money, high turnover with crew, and not a good brand image. Now through Kevin's leadership, NCL is constantly profitable, has a great crew with low turnover, and is leading the way in many areas in regards to onboard amenities and services. I think with Bob Dickinson reaching out to Kevin in regards to their cooperation on the Camillus House project in Miami, it brought those two into a friendship and Kevin was able to learn a lot about the cruise industry through his insights. CCL decided to make cuts that directly affect the passengers onboard experience to maximize profits. Theres nothing wrong with that as every companies goal is to make the most money possible. Some of them didn't bother me at first but after taking 3 additional CCL cruises, I had enough. I branched out first tried RCI and then NCL. Fell in love with the whole "Freestyle" experience, not just dinning but the whole atmosphere on an NCL ship. Like you said nothing against CCL they chose a different route when new management took over as did NCL. NCL decided to stop being at the bottom of the totem pole and decided change and has slowly but surely climbed at or near the top with RCI IMHO. People have different taste and thats fine, but its funny that some of the most ardent people suggesting that CCL is still leading the way in terms of innovation and onboard services haven't even sailed another line to see whats out there for themselves, which is ok, they've found something they like, just like the rest of us. However, its absurd for them to go on the defense and attack and claim one is superior to another without having any experience on the others to compare to.

[Warm Breezes]

I certainly have NO problem with that. Your money, your choice. I just find it odd the number derogatory comments in this thread from people who do NOT have the experience to really know one way or the other.

 

And this also isn't a thread about whether you should prefer what you prefer or prefer what I prefer, or something else entirely. It asked is Carnival falling behind? In terms of innovation, absolutely, Carnival is falling behind. That's not a put down against you or anyone else, or even Carnival as a company, it's just something pretty apparent to see. They are not innovative. They are focused on providing the basics in order to keep costs low.

 

I used to find Carnival a great value. But they cheapened the experience too much. I don't want the cheapest vacation I can get...and often times Carnival is NOT the cheapest anyways; I want good value. Carnival can certainly make changes on existing ships that would represent good value and/or innovation but they choose not to. Isn't that the definition of "falling behind"?

 

It wasn't my intention to call in to question yours or anyone elses tastes or choices in how to spend your discretionary money.

 

 

But isn't what is innovative subjective? For some 2.0, Carnival Live, Playlist Productions, Brunch, and Dr. Suess are innovative. It is not the same type of innovations as ice skating rinks, carousels, mega ships, and broadway productions but it is still something different than what was done before.

 

Some don't like Carnival's innovations and some do....just like some don't like RCCL and NCL's innovations and some do. Just because Carnivals innovations don't pack the WOW factor for some that RCCL's does for them doesn't mean they are any less innovative. You say this thread isn't about someones tastes but it appears to me that Carnival's innovations are not to some posters tastes, including yours, so they don't see them as innovations....even though they are to others. They may not be as WOWing as other cruise lines innovations but many cruisers don't need that WOW to enjoy their vacations and for Carnival to target those cruisers with their innovations doesn't necesarily mean they are "falling behind" when it comes to innovation...it just means they are going about it a different way. If it appers they are "falling behind" to you, IMHO that just means you are not the target market they are aiming for.

[cruzfitter]

But if what you are purchasing meets or exceeds you expectations for the price you are paying and you have no desire to purchase something else, does that mean you are missing out? For some people there is a comfort and joy in the known. It doesn't matter if there is something else out there that would make you just as happy or happier if you are pleased with what you got. I can understand that. It's not me when it comes to cruising, but I can understand it.

 

We do sail different ships and lines because we like to see what is out there and when we are booking a vacation we don't limit ourselves that way. But Carnival is the line we come back to the most because they most often have the ship that meets our wants for a particular vacation and they have always met or exceeded our expectations for what we paid for. If I were the type of person who took pleasure and comfort in the known when it comes to cruising, then I probably wouldn't look for another line either. I am that way when comes to weekday breakfast. I have stopped at the same place for breakfast for the past 10 years on my way to work and gotten the same thing everyday. They have me on a tab and start making it for me as soon as walk in. I don't have to say a word. Are there other places or other items that I would like just as well, if not more? Maybe. Probably. But I don't care. I am happy with the breakfast I get. It is fast, on my way to work, and I like it a lot. Why would I waste my time looking for something else when I am extremely satisfied with what I have?

 

Some people are just like that when it comes to cruises. Who is anyone else to tell them they are wrong and something else might be better for them? Why should they care if they are extremely happy with what they have? We are all different, with different needs and wants. Choice is good.

 

My point is that just because you have found what is an adequate cruise line for you, what ever line that may be, if you've never experienced anything else you really shouldn't be in a discussion comparing cruise lines. You would have no 1st hand knowledge of the things being discussed. This isn't a Carnival issue. It doesn't matter which cruise line someone started out on. I know you don't fall into this category. I'm making a general statement.

 

Now, about the breakfast story. Do you only drive the 1st car brand that satisfied you? Do you only eat dinner at the 1st restaurant that you found adequate? Do only cruise on the 1st line that satisfied you? Oops, never mind.:p

[Hendricks Clan]

If it appers they are "falling behind" to you, IMHO that just means you are not the target market they are aiming for.

 

Then thats sad, as I was once a loyal CCL cruiser. By this viewpoint it means that they have chosen to basically forget about me and others like me (a rather large contingent of loyal/former loyal's) to focus on a different type of passenger and basically saying we don't care about your business.

 

I invested thousands into CCL by cruising them, buying into there Carnival Vacation Club, then promptly renewing my membership into that program that CCL "guaranteed" would be around for many more years to come, only to have CCL get there cut of my membership dues and then decide to pull out of the program leaving my money tied into something I could no longer use. Its sad that CCL's leadership team has decided that they will target a certain type of cruiser and totally forgot about those that helped shape them into becoming the world's largest cruise line (based on ship orders, that title may not be held for much longer).

Edited May 14, 2014 by Hendricks Clan

[jimbo5544]

Mainly because my signature is so big. :rolleyes: When I comment multiple times on a single page I disable my signature on all subsequent posts so I don't take up too much space.:rolleyes:

 

but such nice pictures in it.;):D

[jimbo5544]

Exactly. CCL and NCL both had a change in management with in a couple years of each other. CCL went one way and Kevin Sheehan went another with NCL. NCL went from a debt loaded company always loosing money, high turnover with crew, and not a good brand image. Now through Kevin's leadership, NCL is constantly profitable, has a great crew with low turnover, and is leading the way in many areas in regards to onboard amenities and services. I think with Bob Dickinson reaching out to Kevin in regards to their cooperation on the Camillus House project in Miami, it brought those two into a friendship and Kevin was able to learn a lot about the cruise industry through his insights. CCL decided to make cuts that directly affect the passengers onboard experience to maximize profits. Theres nothing wrong with that as every companies goal is to make the most money possible. Some of them didn't bother me at first but after taking 3 additional CCL cruises, I had enough. I branched out first tried RCI and then NCL. Fell in love with the whole "Freestyle" experience, not just dinning but the whole atmosphere on an NCL ship. Like you said nothing against CCL they chose a different route when new management took over as did NCL. NCL decided to stop being at the bottom of the totem pole and decided change and has slowly but surely climbed at or near the top with RCI IMHO. People have different taste and thats fine, but its funny that some of the most ardent people suggesting that CCL is still leading the way in terms of innovation and onboard services haven't even sailed another line to see whats out there for themselves, which is ok, they've found something they like, just like the rest of us. However, its absurd for them to go on the defense and attack and claim one is superior to another without having any experience on the others to compare to.

NCL certainly took a bold step. I am not sure if I would classify it as innovative, as they almost went under, but nonetheless bold. Having Epic sit a year while investors fought over what should be and not be must have made many squirm. Have to say it worked out tho....

[Hendricks Clan]

NCL certainly took a bold step. I am not sure if I would classify it as innovative, as they almost went under, but nonetheless bold. Having Epic sit a year while investors fought over what should be and not be must have made many squirm. Have to say it worked out tho....

 

I think what your referring to is the dispute between NCL and STX over what the quoted price was and the actual price STX was going to charge. It placed both Epic class ships on hold. Once the dispute was settled, NCL went ahead with Epic, canceled the second ship, and the option on the 3rd.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Hendricks Clan

[loubetti]

Well, there is one thing that can be said about CCL. At least Joe Farcus retired from designing their interiors! A VERY talented man, but his time had then come and gone. He got out at the right time. He was the right designer at the right time. Time to move on.

 

Carnival fills a substantial niche. First time cruisers, and low cost cruisers, and they do that very well. Since they also own "boring" Cunard; well, I'll beg to differ with that description! It's all about what makes you happy.

 

You see, most of your Carnival regulars, especially at these boards are not the majority of pax on their ships. Carnival corp owns all these lines in order to satisfy different tastes, along with the hope that you might just "climb the ladder" too.

 

There is one thing that can be said: After purchase by Carnival, none of these lines are what they used to be. Despite newer and larger ships, even Cunard is not what it used to be, and after P&O (which Carnival also owns) Cunard is the oldest shipping company in the world! They missed out by a year or so! 1840. Carnival bought some serious history when they bought Cunard and P&O. At least with QM2, Carnival stepped up to the plate, and built the greatest and largest ocean liner ever. Not a "cruise" ship, but a 150,000 ton ocean liner that can do 29 knots, take on mother nature at her worst, and I've experienced her doing it! Boring? Not even close!

[Hendricks Clan]

Well, there is one thing that can be said about CCL. At least Joe Farcus retired from designing their interiors! A VERY talented man, but his time had then come and gone. He got out at the right time. He was the right designer at the right time. Time to move on.

 

Carnival fills a substantial niche. First time cruisers, and low cost cruisers, and they do that very well. Since they also own "boring" Cunard; well, I'll beg to differ with that description! It's all about what makes you happy.

 

You see, most of your Carnival regulars, especially at these boards are not the majority of pax on their ships. Carnival corp owns all these lines in order to satisfy different tastes, along with the hope that you might just "climb the ladder" too.

 

There is one thing that can be said: After purchase by Carnival, none of these lines are what they used to be. Despite newer and larger ships, even Cunard is not what it used to be, and after P&O (which Carnival also owns) Cunard is the oldest shipping company in the world! They missed out by a year or so! 1840. Carnival bought some serious history when they bought Cunard and P&O. At least with QM2, Carnival stepped up to the plate, and built the greatest and largest ocean liner ever. Not a "cruise" ship, but a 150,000 ton ocean liner that can do 29 knots, take on mother nature at her worst, and I've experienced her doing it! Boring? Not even close!

 

A transatlantic on Cunard is on my bucket list!

[yogimax]

Then thats sad, as I was once a loyal CCL cruiser. By this viewpoint it means that they have chosen to basically forget about me and others like me (a rather large contingent of loyal/former loyal's) to focus on a different type of passenger and basically saying we don't care about your business.

 

 

Yep, despite being Platinum, Carnival has told me by their actions that they care less about me than the trash in the hallways.

 

That's o.k, though. RCCL and Celebrity value me as a repeat passenger

and my wife and I will never look back!

[Hendricks Clan]

Yep, despite being Platinum, Carnival has told me by their actions that they care less about me than the trash in the hallways.

 

That's o.k, though. RCCL and Celebrity value me as a repeat passenger

and my wife and I will never look back!

 

Thats how I feel about NCL. I actually feel like they value my business. Its the small things like their Latitudes discount for onboard shop purchases and photo purchases...I could go on-and-on but for the sake of time I'll just leave it at that.

[Warm Breezes]

My point is that just because you have found what is an adequate cruise line for you, what ever line that may be, if you've never experienced anything else you really shouldn't be in a discussion comparing cruise lines. You would have no 1st hand knowledge of the things being discussed. This isn't a Carnival issue. It doesn't matter which cruise line someone started out on. I know you don't fall into this category. I'm making a general statement.

 

Now, about the breakfast story. Do you only drive the 1st car brand that satisfied you? Do you only eat dinner at the 1st restaurant that you found adequate? Do only cruise on the 1st line that satisfied you? Oops, never mind.:p

 

Nope to all your questions...but that doesn't mean there are others who don't.....we all are different after all ;).

 

As to your first point, I think those that have sailed only Carnival do have a right to voice their opinions on Carnival innovations...they do sail Carnival after all and see the innovations Carnival gives to them first hand and can do ample research on the ones they haven't yet.

 

"Innovation is the application of better solutions that meet new requirements, in-articulated needs, or existing market needs."-Wikipedia. 2.0, Dr. Suess, Carnival Live, etc. all fall under this definition. As for the other lines innovations, you don't need to experience them to know what they are and discuss them. It is quite easy to do a little research to see what ships are offering. I do that every time I start planning a vacation. I know what a carousel and ice skating rink are. I don't need to have been on the ship experiencing it in order to discuss and evaluate if it is something that would appeal to me and my family :rolleyes:. I knew my kids wouldn't do the rock climbing walls or the slides on Epic before we even sailed it. I was right. But I didn't choose Epic for those innovations and I wouldn't place that ship above our last Carnival Freedom cruise because it had those innovations. Others would because that is where their tastes lie. Do you see how it is all woven together. Whether innovations are better on one line vs another is based on what you like to do. It doesn't matter if you never sailed on a ship with a carousel, you still have a right to your opinion that that carousel is not as good as having Dr. Suess for YOUR kids...if that is what your kids is into. It's all subjective.

[jimbo5544]

Yep, despite being Platinum, Carnival has told me by their actions that they care less about me than the trash in the hallways.

 

That's o.k, though. RCCL and Celebrity value me as a repeat passenger

and my wife and I will never look back!

 

I think I can finally agree with you on something.

[jimbo5544]

A transatlantic on Cunard is on my bucket list!

 

It is on mine as well. Having toured QM2 when she first came out I have always wanted to sail on her. Granted, Cunard does things a bit different shall we say. Would love to fly over spend some time in Europe then sail her back to the greatest city in the world.

[cruzfitter]

Nope to all your questions...but that doesn't mean there are others who don't.....we all are different after all ;).

 

As to your first point, I think those that have sailed only Carnival do have a right to voice their opinions on Carnival innovations...they do sail Carnival after all and see the innovations Carnival gives to them first hand and can do ample research on the ones they haven't yet.

 

"Innovation is the application of better solutions that meet new requirements, in-articulated needs, or existing market needs."-Wikipedia. 2.0, Dr. Suess, Carnival Live, etc. all fall under this definition. As for the other lines innovations, you don't need to experience them to know what they are and discuss them. It is quite easy to do a little research to see what ships are offering. I do that every time I start planning a vacation. I know what a carousel and ice skating rink are. I don't need to have been on the ship experiencing it in order to discuss and evaluate if it is something that would appeal to me and my family :rolleyes:. I knew my kids wouldn't do the rock climbing walls or the slides on Epic before we even sailed it. I was right. But I didn't choose Epic for those innovations and I wouldn't place that ship above our last Carnival Freedom cruise because it had those innovations. Others would because that is where their tastes lie. Do you see how it is all woven together. Whether innovations are better on one line vs another is based on what you like to do. It doesn't matter if you never sailed on a ship with a carousel, you still have a right to your opinion that that carousel is not as good as having Dr. Suess for YOUR kids...if that is what your kids is into. It's all subjective.

 

I think we're on different pages here. I'm talking about generalizations such as:

A Royal only cruiser saying "I won't sail Carnival because it a nothing but a party ship."

A Carnival only cruiser saying "I won't sail HAL because it's nothing but old people."

A Norwegian only cruiser saying " I won't sail Royal because it's just a big shopping mall."

 

But, as to your point, it is one thing to say, I don't like something or my family won't use something on another cruise line or at a restaurant, etc. than to put something down just because it's on another cruise line or at a different restaurant.

[gtalum]

Just to clarify my own position: I have nothing against Royal, NCL, Disney, or any other cruise line (though to be honest Disney's lack of casinos gives me pause). We've always been happy on Carnival, and we were happy on our NCL cruise a few years back.

 

FWIW Every time we cruise, I shop all the lines. I'm curious about other lines' offerings, especially Royal's Oasis class. I have yet to see anyone match Carnival's rates for a specific itinerary at a specific given time. That's not to say it never happens, but I've never seen it.

 

A caveat is that for my next cruise on Paradise in July, for my daughter and me, I did find a competitive cruise on Vision of the Seas. Sailing on Vision out of Fort Lauderdale instead of sailing Paradise out of Tampa means taking an extra day off work and several extra hours of driving, though. From Paradise we can disembark by 8 on Monday and I'll be in the office before 10.

Edited May 15, 2014 by gtalum

[Warm Breezes]

I think we're on different pages here. I'm talking about generalizations such as:

A Royal only cruiser saying "I won't sail Carnival because it a nothing but a party ship."

A Carnival only cruiser saying "I won't sail HAL because it's nothing but old people."

A Norwegian only cruiser saying " I won't sail Royal because it's just a big shopping mall."

 

But, as to your point, it is one thing to say, I don't like something or my family won't use something on another cruise line or at a restaurant, etc. than to put something down just because it's on another cruise line or at a different restaurant.

 

My point is that just because you have found what is an adequate cruise line for you, what ever line that may be, if you've never experienced anything else you really shouldn't be in a discussion comparing cruise lines. You would have no 1st hand knowledge of the things being discussed. This isn't a Carnival issue. It doesn't matter which cruise line someone started out on. I know you don't fall into this category. I'm making a general statement.

 

Now, about the breakfast story. Do you only drive the 1st car brand that satisfied you? Do you only eat dinner at the 1st restaurant that you found adequate? Do only cruise on the 1st line that satisfied you? Oops, never mind.:p

 

You may have been discussing "generalizations" but the OP is discussing "innovations" and that is what I was responding to in this. This thread is a discussion on "is CCL falling behind when it comes to innovations". Even if someone has not sailed on RCCL or NCL they can have an opinion on this based on their research. Your throwing the "generalizations" in there instead of "innovations" changes the discussion.

 

FWIW, I believe people have the right to have opinions and discussions on generalizations too, even if they haven't sailed that line. If they do their research they are going to come up with those generalizations based on their research and use that information when deciding which cruise to choose. Don't we all? But that shouldn't stop you from disagreeing with that opinion they form and letting them know that your experience is different than what they are stating. That should only help them in their research if it is something they don't have first hand experience at. That is what these discussions boards should be for. Not everyone is going to agree on these "generalizations" because their own experiance is going to influence their opinion. There is nothing wrong with that and if someone has a different opinion than you, then just explain your opinion and why....it doesn't make either opinion right or wrong. Just put out your side so others reading it will know how your experience leads you to believe something else. Who knows you may change their mind by using more persuasive arguments than by just telling them they are wrong and they shouldn't even be in the discussion:rolleyes:.

[cjknox]

It's all subjective.

 

I think this sums up the entire thread in a few short words.