Why not redefine "formal"?

[sail7seas]

;) Can I dine where you're eating? I like the sound of the first menu.....I promise we'll put on our best formal wear.....Can we dine with you? Please :)

[ryansmemom]

[quote name='hotspur']Look, Reverend, you can't really be trying to tell us there's something "special," or "elegant," or "classy," or remotely "formal" about a singer whose shtick is imitating Neal Diamond or Engelbert Humperdinck, or an unknown juggler/comic, or ten twenty-somethings singing and dancing on a small stage for little money hoping for a break. You really aren't trying to make us think the mass-produced food on HAL, prepared for and served to 500-900 at one time, is really fine cuisine. Are you? If so, you really do need to step back and recognize the [i]reality[/i] of the situation.

I'd bet nearly every passenger on HAL--and all the other budget-priced cruise lines as well--wouldn't cross the street at home to see the quality of entertainment provided on a cruise ship. The food, at best, is Outback quality. Surely no threat to the Four Seasons. And a cut below a typical Roman trattoria or Parisian bistro.

We enjoyed our week on the Maasdam, and saw some interesting things at a few of the ports--despite the complete absence of substantive port information available from the ship. We'd do it again. But don't try telling us it was some kind of grand, elegant, once-in-a-lifetime experience. And especially that it merits wearing black-tie. It's NCL with flowers, only NCL, at least, has adopted a realistic attitude toward dress.[/QUOTE]

Hotspur,

Please be patient with me. I will admit I find your style a bit intimidating and I don't want to feel attacked. So please take this in the spirit in which it is intended. it is a question for information only.

Let's just, for argument's sake say you are 100% correct. I don't think you are. None of us is ever 100% correct. But this is just for the purpose of this discussion. Please help me understand why you seem to feel the need to burst whatever "fantasies" (in your opinion) your fellow cruisers have that make their cruises so enjoyable for them?

They pay their way like everyone else. They make their choices based on whatever criteria is important to them. If in your opinion, they are being duped, so what? We all talk about personal freedom. You seem to cherish your right to have and express your point of view. And, rightly so, become upset when someone challenges your right to do so or demeans that view.

My question is, help me understand why it seems, for today at least, you seem to be having difficulty extending that courtesy to others?

Just a question. No flames please.

Linda

[bitburgk9handler]

don't dress, they probably wear their basebakll caps inside at the table. I am quite sure their parents did not teach them that!!!! Why is it so offensive to some people to get dressed??? I know, they are on vacation, But, there are alternatives. Buffets, in room dining etc.where's my asbestos suit? illegitimi non carborundum

[annebill]

This discussion has gotten far afield from the original question, which was would some other definition of formal ever be acceptable. It was not whether or not to do away with "formal" or "dressy". Ladies, how would you like to have little choice in what was considered proper ? What if you HAD to wear a buttoned up shirt, tie, and COAT on EVERY dressy occasion? Do you think someone might come up with sleeveless or strapless dresses or gowns in order to be more comfortable? Lightweight fabrics for coolness ? Would you like to have no choice but to dress as every other female---little or no individuality? Would you like your color choices to be limited to black, gray, or navy blue in order to be considered "properly dressed"? Would you like to have to put in studs and cufflinks every time you put on a "dressy" blouse ?(That's probably easier than hooking up all those hooks in the back, come to think of it).

Those thoughts just go through my mind any time I struggle into my tux. I suppose poor males will continue to be herded around in their chokers and drap suits and tuxs until enough of us say "NO MORE. GIVE US CHOICES JUST AS WOMEN HAVE". Uh oh, here comes my wi............

[ryansmemom]

[quote name='annebill']This discussion has gotten far afield from the original question, which was would some other definition of formal ever be acceptable. It was not whether or not to do away with "formal" or "dressy". Ladies, how would you like to have little choice in what was considered proper ? What if you HAD to wear a buttoned up shirt, tie, and COAT on EVERY dressy occasion? Do you think someone might come up with sleeveless or strapless dresses or gowns in order to be more comfortable? Lightweight fabrics for coolness ? Would you like to have no choice but to dress as every other female---little or no individuality? Would you like your color choices to be limited to black, gray, or navy blue in order to be considered "properly dressed"? Would you like to have to put in studs and cufflinks every time you put on a "dressy" blouse ?(That's probably easier than hooking up all those hooks in the back, come to think of it).

Those thoughts just go through my mind any time I struggle into my tux. I suppose poor males will continue to be herded around in their chokers and drap suits and tuxs until enough of us say "NO MORE. GIVE US CHOICES JUST AS WOMEN HAVE". Uh oh, here comes my wi............[/QUOTE]

Several years ago, Rita Rudner addressed this very issue in her stand up comedy act on an HBO special. I don't remember the details but in a nutshell she said something like this.


[CENTER]Women are scared to death that they will attend a formal affair and see another woman wearing the same gown. They shop endlessly. The men have it easy. All they have to do is put on a tux. That way they don't have to worry that they made a mistake.[/CENTER]

I've just paraphrased her monologue. She said it much better than I and it was much funnier. I hope you get the idea anyway.

However, fashions do change. In the past, men used to dress in a much more colorful, lively fashion. In other cultures, they do as well. In nature, quite often it is the male of the species who is more colorfully adorned.

Here's a challenge to the men who want to be more festive and are tired of drab. Look to history and other cultures. Nehru jackets? Caftans? Formal caveman ala Fred Flintstone? Tights and doublets anyone? Ruffled shirts and capes?

And ladies, how about bringing back the bustle and crinoline? How about ruff collars and sleeves? Those wide things Queen Elizabeth I and Marie Antionette wore under thier dresses? Come on ladies even if we just wear our strapless bras we can be as uncomfortable as the men. It's the least we can do.

Lets make these out of breathable, lightweight fabrics and new fashionable pastels with lots of bling? Sequins! beads! Crystals! All sorts of shiny things!!

Sound like fun??

Give me a break it's Saturday night and this is on topic! :D :D :D :D

Linda

[RevNeal]

[QUOTE]Look, Reverend, you can't really be trying to tell us...[/QUOTE]

My, what an attitude! I'm really intimidated! :eek: </sarcasm>

In all seriousness, hotspur, I'm not trying to tell you [i]anything[/i] of the sort. Indeed, my intention was clear: you were expressing your opinion, not pure, unvarnished "reality." If you don't like that tiny bit of corrective qualification, I'm very sorry.

[RevNeal]

dmyles1,

[QUOTE]You know, they don't make "white dinner jackets" anymore, except if you want to pay $600.00.[/QUOTE]

You are correct that ebay is an excellent place to shop for items. I've bought a couple of really nice Tux Shirt button sets via ebay.

However, there are LOTS of places on the internet you can order VERY nice white/cream colored dinner jackets. Google "White" "Dinner Jacket" and see what you get. I found mine, a couple years ago, via the internet for about $140, plus shipping (but, because it was an internet purchase there was no tax!). It had to be altered slightly for me, but it fits me VERY well and looks sharp on me.

If you want to know where I got it, feel free to email me.

[jazzsea]

Just a thought..... why not discuss the term "Country Club Casual" for a while. You would not believe some of the outfits we saw on the Oceania Insignia two weeks ago.

We booked Oceania because we were a little tired of all of the changes on Holland America. Oh, so glad that our next cruise is with HAL.

In a perfect world, on a perfect ship, how would we all like to dress? Is it possible to meet our own dress needs without being offensive to others? Or, have we all become so stuffy that we can't tolerate others?

[superstein61]

[quote name='sail7seas']DH and I dressing formal does not have HAL picking our pockets. In what way does it cost us money to enjoy dressing to the requested dress code? DH owns several tuxedos and dinner jackets. It costs him nothing more to pack a tuxedo vs. another pair of khakis and more jerseys. I costs me nothing to pack a formal dress rather than another pair of slacks.[/quote]

Maybe not for everyone - but you have plenty of HAL pocket picking money making opportunities:

1. Tuxedo Rental
2. Hairdresser Appointments
3. Photo after photo

thats 3 right there

[quote]
Ambience.....when you show up in dockers and a golf shirt on formal night, you just may be willing to admit that you "stick out" and effect MY enjoyment of the ambience and setting.

HAL goes to a great deal of expense and work to design and construct elegant dining rooms and the stewards go to much work to polish and shine the crystal and silver and set tables so beautifully.

I want to enjoy the mood and the setting and I enjoy seeing people who have taken a bit of pride and effort in their appearance and consideration for those around them to enhance the ambience and partake of the festivity of the evening.

Why should they change the tradition of formal evenings because some of you have decided you do not wish to participate. [/quote]

And how someone dresses affects your "ambiance". thats shallow, real shallow



[quote]The majority of us do want it and it is part of what we look for on a cruise vacation vs. flopped at some joint on the beach.[/QUOTE]

UMMMMM - I don't think so. Not sure where you get the "majority" want to do this. Appears to me more forlks prefer casual than formal. At best, its probably evenly split. So you aren't in any majority

[superstein61]

[quote name='hotspur']We cruise to go places. A cruise ship is a convenient way to see many places while staying in one bed and unpacking only once. The food, shipboard events, etc., on mass market cruise lines like HAL are just fine for this kind of trip, but they are, frankly, nothing special. And, unlike some here, we really don't care whether someone wears white gloves while escorting us to our cabin, or puts a tablecloth on our veranda table for room service, or gives us a glass of champagne at sailaway, or calls us "massah" while making our beds.

All that stuff is unnecessary frippery. Our vacation is not affected in the least by such trivia. We could not care less about dining with the captain, or knowing the hotel manager, and so on. We don't understand why anyone would care. Perhaps it makes them feel important, or some such thing involving status or ego. ("Ah yes, how delightful that our good friend Captain Van Der Zingus will be aboard during our next cruise.")

So all the talk here about "my Maasdam," and how wonderful everything about HAL is, just gives us cause for the roll-eyes emoticon. No one wears formalwear on a bus tour of Europe, and a cruise is a bus tour on water, with perhaps a bit more evening entertainment. Sorry, folks.

On every mass market cruise line we've sailed, the food, entertainment, service, etc., have been acceptable, but nowhere near exceptional. So, when I point this out, I'm not "ripping HAL," I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation. Cruising is a nice way to travel, but it does not turn you into Gatsby. You're not in a Fifth Avenue salon party with Cole Porter tickling the keyboard. You're on a bargain-priced cruise with a bunch of people wearing rented formalwear. If some here get a kick out of thinking they're really experiencing the Gatsby lifestyle, then bully for them. Dress to the hilt. But for HAL--or any mass market cruise line--to require the rest of us to play this masquerade just to please those who enjoy making-believe, is simply silly.[/QUOTE]

Very well said Hotspur, very well said !!!!!!!

[sail7seas]

[quote name='superstein61']Maybe not for everyone - but you have plenty of HAL pocket picking money making opportunities:

1. Tuxedo Rental
2. Hairdresser Appointments
3. Photo after photo

thats 3 right there


[b]1. DH owns his tuxedos and dinner jackets [/b]
[b]2. I am more than able to do my own hair quite adequately[/b]
[b]3. We have photos taken by friends with OUR cameras or by stewards etc[/b]


[b]No added expenses here for us.[/b]

And how someone dresses affects your "ambiance". thats shallow, real shallow


[b]In YOUR opinion. And, quite frankly, your opinion is of no more (or less) value than anyone/everyone else's. The way people around us dress (in terms of dockers and golf shirts vs. appropriate clothing for the requested dress code) absolutely does effect my pleasure and enjoyment of the setting HAL has gone to the expense and trouble of creating for our enjoyment. Your boat shoes and dockers do disturb the [i]view.[/i][/b]







UMMMMM - I don't think so. Not sure where you get the "majority" want to do this. Appears to me more forlks prefer casual than formal. At best, its probably evenly split. So you aren't in any majority[/QUOTE]

[b]I get "majority" by looking around the dining room and the ship on formal nights and seeing far more folks dressed APPROPRIATELY on formal nights than not.[/b]

[superstein61]

[quote name='revneal']superstein, sail7seas asked you a very simple question:



Your response, in post #80, was almost nothing but a catalog of negative gripes about HAL combined with boastings about how "objective" you are. I'm sorry, but that wasn't what s7s was asking. Nor is it what I'm asking. What is it that you LIKE about cruising, and about HAL in particular, that causes you to be a repeat cruiser? We know what you don't like -- and, especially, what you don't like about HAL -- you've hosed us down with your dislikes for quite a while, now. But what do you LIKE about HAL and about cruising? ANYTHING? Right now, based upon everything that I've read from you, it sounds like you really don't like much about the line at all.[/QUOTE]

Rev - go back and read - Sail7seas asked a question and listed areas where I have posted negative comments. I addressed those in my response - which I should mention, sail7seas as is typical, didn't even have the courtesy to respond to.

I noted - I have cruised on HAL, NCL and Disney - and I can tell you good and bad points about them all. I happen to be a very objective person - and like to look at the good and the bad when I read a review, etc. So I try to express both opinions here - good and bad. However, since we have so many people postings positives, sometimes the negatives seem to stick out more.

I also said - AND THIS IS IMPORTANT SO PLEASE CATCH IT THIS TIME AROUND REV - "Now - since it appears you have read so many of my posts - you should know that when someone asks how HAL compares to XYZ line - I can provide some differences - but in general, most lines are pretty similiar. Which is why I have stated several times that now, I choose my cruise based on price and itinerary."

PRICE AND ITINERARY !!!!! And most cruise lines are pretty similiar.

I cruise because I like to go to different places - and a cruise is a nice way to get to several of them (HENCE ITINERARY). Since I find most cruise lines similiar (HENCE PRICE) - with just some minor differences (ie most have private islands, most have alternative restaurants, most offer good entertainment and service, most offer kids clubs, etc - its all a matter of which one one views as superior). NCL does offer freestyle which is about the biggest difference between them and HAL or Disney. HAL is not much different than the other lines - IMO, they all are just floating hotels. HAL I would judge better in room size and lack of overcrowding their ships. DIsney - I give high marks for the BEST private island, best kids club and excellent dining rotation. NCL I favor for their freestyle approach. But the differences are not that great to make me choose one over the other.

PRICE AND ITINERARY is the way to choose

[superstein61]

[quote name='sail7seas']. It DOES matter that you be respectful of others' choices...different as they may from yours. I am unaware of ever being disrespectful to you and your choices and preferences; I expect the same courtesy in return.[/QUOTE]

Even though directed at Hotspur, this comment is a hoot when you look at who it is coming from.

Not to be dimisive sail7seas - but your remarks being disrepectful, critical and more about others choices fill this board. Maybe you do not think so, but I am sorry, they do. Please do not pretend otherwise

[sail7seas]

[quote name='superstein61']Rev - go back and read - Sail7seas asked a question and listed areas where I have posted negative comments. I addressed those in my response - which I should mention, sail7seas as is typical, didn't even have the courtesy to respond to.

[/QUOTE]

Once again, you are wrong. Actually, I was showing you a great deal of courtesy. I had nothing Civil to respond to you so I chose to extend the courtesy to you of remaining silent.

I, too, have cruised number of times on other cruiselines. So what?!!! We have cruised about 5 times on Princess and the same on Celebrity, we have cruised RCI and Carnival (sort of...but that is a long story).....

You want courtesy........EARN IT!

[superstein61]

[quote name='jazzsea'] Is it possible to meet our own dress needs without being offensive to others? Or, have we all become so stuffy that we can't tolerate others?[/QUOTE]

HEAR, HEAR !!!!!

I could care less what others wear. People should do what they feel comfortable doing.

I am going on a Caribbean cruise - not some formal get together at the White House. I will stick with my Tropical look - thank you

[superstein61]

[quote name='sail7seas'][b]I get "majority" by looking around the dining room and the ship on formal nights and seeing far more folks dressed APPROPRIATELY on formal nights than not.[/b][/QUOTE]

Sorry - You must be cruising on different ships and at different times of the year. Their certainly is not a majority who PREFER formal nights. You may get some more that conform (I used to be one - but no longer). But viewing opinions, and NCL where people DO HAVE A CHOICE - its no more than 50/50

[superstein61]

[quote name='sail7seas']Once again, you are wrong. Actually, I was showing you a great deal of courtesy. I had nothing Civil to respond to you so I chose to extend the courtesy to you of remaining silent.

I, too, have cruised number of times on other cruiselines. So what?!!! We have cruised about 5 times on Princess and the same on Celebrity, we have cruised RCI and Carnival (sort of...but that is a long story).....

You want courtesy........EARN IT![/QUOTE]

Look who is talking once again about being civil and courteous. There was ABSOLUTELY NOTINHG un-civil in my lengthy response to you.

C'mon now - you have been exposed more than once for - give it a break

[sail7seas]

I am quite done with you.


I shall no longer play along. When you get into name calling, I'm done, gone, over. ....You're on your own fella. Go for it.

[superstein61]

[quote name='sail7seas']I am quite done with you.


I shall no longer play along(you're getting redundant and boring IMO ).....you're on your own fella. Go for it.[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm - methinks I have struck a nerve. Sail7Seas must not like being exposed for the judgemental, uncourteous person she really is. Oh well, life goes on.

And a pleasant good riddance to you dear

[777steve]

I don't have kids of my own but I do have lots of experience with other folks who do. One of the constants is that when the kids get too whiny and unreasonable, they finally just have to turn their attention elsewhere until the little darlings run out of steam. It's always funny to me to watch how fast they lose interest in their rant when no one will play.

Cheers!

[Daxxx]

Will be going on the Zaandam to Alaska and I am wondering if you can rent a tux on the ship and if so what would be the cost?

Thanks,

Daxxx

[peaches from georgia]

Yes, you can rent a tux for your cruise and have it waiting for you in your stateroom when you board.

All the information you will need is on the website [url]www.cruiselineformal.com[/url]. You can do it all online and I've never read any comments here on CC that were less than satisfied with this service.

[tjcox9]

On one cruise I was on, there were a number of Scots. For formal evenings, they donned their "formal' kilts. They enjoyed themselves and we enjoyed seeing them.

[RevNeal]

What a blast from the past this was.
I wonder why fights over formal clothing haven't erupted much as of late?

Gee, I miss superstein61 ... there's nothing like self-opinionated subjectivity masquerading as objectiveness to give one a laugh. How one can cruise on two different HAL ships and think they have insight into the entire Line I'll never know. But, all that and clothing choices aside, he really was a neat guy. He'd probably be a whole lot of fun at the dinner table ... again, clothing choices aside.

Addendum: I just checked ... he's not posted anything since November 8th, 2004. I suppose he grew tired of us and quit. :)

[RuthC]

[quote name='revneal']...Addendum: I just checked ... he's not posted anything since November 8th, 2004. I suppose he grew tired of us and quit. :)[/QUOTE]
[font=Comic Sans MS][size=3][color=royalblue]Or was reincarnated under a new board name, perhaps?[/color][/size][/font] :confused: