Furious with Holland America!

[Donray]

Why are you so hung up on this? Nowhere did I see any indication that the OP was asking for more than the actual worth. What other people pay for their underwear is their business, surely.:rolleyes:

 

The OP is asking for more then what used cloths are worth. Would you pay $4000 for a suit case of used cloths?

I don't care what people pay underwear, I was trying to make a point of what one pay for used underwear. How mush would pay? Would you $20.00 for a pair panties at Goodwill? You seem to not understand the point I was making. You might go back and read more carefully. When did I every say I cared what paid for underwire. I was trying to point out what used underwear is worth.

 

 

The OP is asking for the values as if you were going to replace the items with new items. That is not the law, you get deprecated value. That means you get the cost of used cloths and items. The reason I bring up used panties is because she would only legally to recover the cost of used panties. You cannot say your used underwear is worth any more than what you can replace them with used underwear from Gooodwill. Unless she also has the original sales receipts it is assumed you do not have the most expensive items. What you bought would be cloths that people in your income bracket would buy.

 

How much do you think a brides maid dress is worth even if only worn once?

 

You fail to understand the law. If you want replacement value you buy additional insurance.

 

For example if your ten old car is totaled should you get the values of a new car at todays price or the blue book value of the ten year old car?

 

 

I don't understand why so many do not understand the law.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Donray

[Fouremco]

I'm sorry the OP has to go through this. Some time back I saw a thread on another forum (Celebrity / Royal Caribbean ????) about the same situation, luggage apparently never made it off the ship. That poster also had to go through the laborious task of submitting a list to the cruise line of all items in the suitcase - for the same measly amount of $100. That thread covered the saga for some time. I don't think that poster ever received satisfaction from the cruise line. In that case I believe she had to file a claim with her homeowners insurance.

Mary Ellen, that was probably the Celebrity thread that I referred to earlier in post 108.

 

You'd think that from a customer relations perspective alone, it would be worth while for HAL and other lines to offer some form of compensation above and beyond the insurance. While a few hundred dollars in future OBC or something similar might not fully offset the cost of the lost luggage and contents, the gesture would make a huge difference in how people would feel towards the cruise line. Unless they are losing a lot more luggage than we are aware of, it also wouldn't be a significant cost to HAL and others.

[rochelle_s]

The OP is asking for the values as if you were going to replace the items with new items. That is not the law, you get deprecated value. That means you get the cost of used cloths and items. The reason I bring up used panties is because she would only legally to recover the cost of used panties. You cannot say your used underwear is worth any more than what you can replace them with used underwear from Gooodwill. Unless she also has the original sales receipts it is assumed you do not have the most expensive items. What you bought would be cloths that people in your income bracket would buy.

 

How much do you think a brides maid dress is worth even if only worn once?

 

You fail to understand the law. If you want replacement value you buy additional insurance.

 

For example if your ten old car is totaled should you get the values of a new car at todays price or the blue book value of the ten year old car?

 

 

I don't understand why so many do not understand the law.

 

 

I don't understand what you do not understand.

 

I will refer you to post #1 and post #223

 

I did exactly as HAL asked of me;

 

 

"If, however, you do not have any sort of travel protection we ask that you provide an itemized list of the belongings with brand and purchase price along with the brand, purchase price, and year purchased of your suitcase. If you happen to have receipts for any of the items those would be greatly appreciated."

 

 

What ever part you think the law, value or replacement value of goods plays in this is completely irrelevant. I would appreciate it if you would please stop cluttering the issue with your theory of how things should be done. It is obviously not the way that HAL handles it. How they choose to handle this situation is all that matters to me.

 

 

Rochelle

[sapper1]

I don't understand what you do not understand.

 

I will refer you to post #1 and post #223

 

I did exactly as HAL asked of me;

 

 

"If, however, you do not have any sort of travel protection we ask that you provide an itemized list of the belongings with brand and purchase price along with the brand, purchase price, and year purchased of your suitcase. If you happen to have receipts for any of the items those would be greatly appreciated."

 

 

What ever part you think the law, value or replacement value of goods plays in this is completely irrelevant. I would appreciate it if you would please stop cluttering the issue with your theory of how things should be done. It is obviously not the way that HAL handles it. How they choose to handle this situation is all that matters to me.

 

 

Rochelle

Please appreciate that most of the posters reading here understand exactly what you are saying. HAL asked for the purchase price. Period. Some just enjoy being obstreperous.

[rochelle_s]

Please appreciate that most of the posters reading here understand exactly what you are saying. HAL asked for the purchase price. Period. Some just enjoy being obstreperous.

 

 

Most posters are great...even some that disagree with me.

 

 

Ans some have a Goodwill underwear fetish:eek:

 

 

;)

Edited July 12, 2014 by rochelle_s

[waASPCrusier]

Most posters are great...even some that disagree with me.

 

 

Ans some have a Goodwill underwear fetish:eek:

 

 

;)

 

What I find ironic is of your entire post, most dealing with back story and really focusing on the way you were treated and hoops you had to jump thru. The main thing that was taken away be many people was the offered reimbursement amount and your valuation, which was only what you were asked to provide. The almighty dollar :rolleyes:

[Lizzie68]

The OP is asking for more then what used cloths are worth. Would you pay $4000 for a suit case of used cloths?

I don't care what people pay underwear, I was trying to make a point of what one pay for used underwear. How mush would pay? Would you $20.00 for a pair panties at Goodwill? You seem to not understand the point I was making. You might go back and read more carefully. When did I every say I cared what paid for underwire. I was trying to point out what used underwear is worth.

 

 

The OP is asking for the values as if you were going to replace the items with new items. That is not the law, you get deprecated value. That means you get the cost of used cloths and items. The reason I bring up used panties is because she would only legally to recover the cost of used panties. You cannot say your used underwear is worth any more than what you can replace them with used underwear from Gooodwill. Unless she also has the original sales receipts it is assumed you do not have the most expensive items. What you bought would be cloths that people in your income bracket would buy.

 

How much do you think a brides maid dress is worth even if only worn once?

 

You fail to understand the law. If you want replacement value you buy additional insurance.

 

For example if your ten old car is totaled should you get the values of a new car at todays price or the blue book value of the ten year old car?

 

 

I don't understand why so many do not understand the law.

 

Thanks for the enlightenment. However, it does not change my mind. I do believe you got hung up on the underwear issue and seemed to want to debate it with another poster. And jeez, a surprise to me that I don't understand the law - must depend what kind of law, having been working in the field for near 35 years.:rolleyes: But as you must be aware, there are many kinds of law, and many different ways of interpreting and applying said laws. To the topic of the thread - The OP is making her best effort to find her luggage, and following exactly HAL's requests.

[donaldsc]

To the topic of the thread - The OP is making her best effort to find her luggage, and following exactly HAL's requests.

 

I repeat what everyone who is getting tied up in their underwear seems to be forgetting or ignoring -

 

1) the OP got her suitcases out late

2) she did not put them in the hall by her room but somewhere else, regardless of whether she was told to do so by a crew member

3) she did not stick around after disembarking and not finding her suitcases but she felt that the cost and/or timing of her taxi was more important than insisting that HAL look for her stuff

4) she did not have replacement value insurance.

 

Based on this, I would apportion a major percentage of her problems to her actions and not to HAL. Of course HAL is partly to blame but she also has to take responsibility for her actions.

 

DON

[navybankerteacher]

Affixing blame is not really helpful, and valuing used undergarments verges on the creepy. OP lost a couple of bags and has been given something of a runaround by HAL - and we have all learned of the surprisingly small amount of compensation the line will volunteer.

 

I hope for OP's sake that the bags turn up - which is not all that unlikely: they must be somewhere, and they probably do not contain much of great value to thieves. With any sort of luck, they will be found in some little-used compartment of the ship, possibly placed there by a tired crew member who forgot that he was supposed to put them in the off-loafing area; alternatively they will be noticed in some cruise terminal - in either case still bearing the debarkation tags - and possibly even OP's identification. And then some responsible person will do the responsible thing.

 

I (reasonably) hope to hear from OP in the next few days (or months) that the bags have resurfaced.

 

I will periodically check this site to find out - hoping not to have to road through any more skivvies valuations theories or blame assignments.

[rochelle_s]

I repeat what everyone who is getting tied up in their underwear seems to be forgetting or ignoring -

 

1) the OP got her suitcases out late

2) she did not put them in the hall by her room but somewhere else, regardless of whether she was told to do so by a crew member

3) she did not stick around after disembarking and not finding her suitcases but she felt that the cost and/or timing of her taxi was more important than insisting that HAL look for her stuff

4) she did not have replacement value insurance.

 

Based on this, I would apportion a major percentage of her problems to her actions and not to HAL. Of course HAL is partly to blame but she also has to take responsibility for her actions.

 

DON

 

1) Please if you are going to comment stick to the facts. I was not late in putting out my luggage!

 

2) I was not told by a crew member where to put my luggage. I gave my luggage directly to a crew member within 15 feet of where the luggage was being put. Had I not done this I would not be able to feel as strongly as I do that HAL is responsible for where our bags went, as I know for a fact they (HAL) were in possession of them (via their employee/s).

 

3) I did in fact stick around at the Ijmuiden terminal until all disembarking passengers had cleared. We were the only two people left with no suitcase. We double and triple checked the carts with luggage being shipped (DSL)-our bags were not there. They brought the cart with the luggage for crew who were boarding that day -- ours were not there. Someone from the port had already gone back to the ship looking for any stray bags. He returned to inform us that there was none.

 

The HAL representative had us fill out the form, which we did and told us to contact HAL at the airport and if no success there than to contact the Guest Relations (number on our copy of the lost luggage claim form) when we got home. Before we finished checking in for our flight at Schipol we were told to check in with KLM when we arrived in Montreal, which we did and we were then told we needed to check in with WestJet when we arrived in Toronto, which we did. How these airlines would be in anyway responsible for our luggage is beyond me as we never checked in luggage in the first place. But we did as we were directed.

 

I do not know what you expected me to do in Imjuiden. Everyone there indicated to us that were no more options to pursue at that location. Should I have stamped my feet and thrown a tantrum? What exactly would that have accomplished? At this point I believe that everyone concerned, including ourselves, felt the luggage was just misplaced and that we would reconnect with it at some point. If I had stayed put as you apparently think I should, not only would I now still be missing my suitcase but I could have also missed my flight. Call me cheap but I imagine it costs a pretty penny to book a last minute international flight. Who would pay for that? Insurance? I don't think they cover if you say I didn't want to leave without my bag. Suitcases are delayed all the time. What is unique here is that our bags seem to have completely disappeared!

 

4) As for insurance -- let's look at this analogy.

 

Your car needs to get from point A to point B.

• Your car is broken down at the corner of your street (point A) and it needs to get to the local garage (point B).
  
• You call AAA/CAA to tow it.
   
  
• You meet the tow truck at the corner and see them hook up your car.
   
  
• The next morning you arrive at the garage and your car is not there?

 

 

Are you upset? Curious? Angry? Do you want answers? Do you want your car back? Who is responsible for the disappearance of your vehicle?

 

Who cares about any of the above. You have insurance so that will cover it! Or you don't have insurance so too bad that is your fault.

 

AAA/CAA is in no way at fault for the disappearance of your vehicle all because there is a clause in the fine print of your membership that says so.

 

 

I honestly do not think there are many reasonable people that would just walk away without pursuing the matter further. I think it is very reasonable to want them to take the matter seriously. To do everything they can and search every possible avenue for your property. They need to take responsibility for where they failed and that does not just include financial responsibility but also to find out the why and how something like this can happen. And finally they need to implement steps and measures to prevent it from happening again.

 

 

That car did not disappear into thin air and neither did our suitcases!!

 

 

Rochelle

Edited July 12, 2014 by rochelle_s

[Linda&Vern]

The suitcase(s) disappeared May 24th. OP wrote about it on CC July 7th. Today is July 12th. I personally do not see the luggage reappearing.

 

OP - Just curious, but I don't believe you've mentioned what tags were on the outside of the luggage, and was there any ID inside the luggage?

[SoCal Cruiser78]

The OP is asking for more then what used cloths are worth. Would you pay $4000 for a suit case of used cloths?...

 

No, I wouldn't pay that, but it may well cost the OP that much to replace them. If they were well cared for and slightly worn, they may have had many years left of use to her.

 

This is the problem with depreciated value insurance. She could have checked thrift shop luggage full of well-worn clothes, and received the same $100 for it.

[SoCal Cruiser78]

...With any sort of luck, they will be found in some little-used compartment of the ship, possibly placed there by a tired crew member who forgot that he was supposed to put them in the off-loafing area...

 

This is exactly what I have suspected, and am hoping they will be returned intact to the OP. It would explain why both bags disappeared and neither has resurfaced.

[rochelle_s]

The suitcase(s) disappeared May 24th. OP wrote about it on CC July 7th. Today is July 12th. I personally do not see the luggage reappearing.

 

OP - Just curious, but I don't believe you've mentioned what tags were on the outside of the luggage, and was there any ID inside the luggage?

 

Each bag had the 'Grey 2' disembarkation tag on it. We each had a personal luggage tag on the outside with all details. Mine is a Canadian flag tag, my mothers is a giant wine glass. Copies of the our passports were inside the bag. Each bag also had a bow attached to it to distinguish it further.

 

 

All other tags (previous flight/ ship boarding) were already removed. There should have been no confusion from that.

 

 

Rochelle

[POA1]

Each bag had the 'Grey 2' disembarkation tag on it. We each had a personal luggage tag on the outside with all details. Mine is a Canadian flag tag, my mothers is a giant wine glass. Copies of the our passports were inside the bag. Each bag also had a bow attached to it to distinguish it further.

 

 

All other tags (previous flight/ ship boarding) were already removed. There should have been no confusion from that.

 

 

Rochelle

Rochelle - I think the reason for asking about identifying information inside was in case the exterior tags got removed. The inside information would allow someone finding your luggage to know whose it was. (This happened to us once and the business cards we keep in the pockets helped to locate us for the finder.)

 

I hope you get your luggage back!

[FredT]

Facts:

 

1) HAL CLEARLY states that they have a $100.00 limit on lost luggage

 

2) HAL asked for a detailed list of the contents (and their worth) so that they could make sure that they were liable for the full $100.00. NOTHING MORE.

 

3) Neither HAL, or any other cruise line, (Or any airline for that matter) would EVER give more than their stated limit. "Good customer relations" or not, if they ever DID give a customer more than the contracted limit, they would be opening themselves up for any number of FUTURE claims. It just aint gonna happen.

 

I know these to be facts as I worked in the airline industry for a number of years and this subject REPEATEDLY came up.

 

Sorry you lost your luggage, time to go forward and stop dwelling on something that no amount of bitching or complaining will do something about.

[rochelle_s]

Rochelle - I think the reason for asking about identifying information inside was in case the exterior tags got removed. The inside information would allow someone finding your luggage to know whose it was. (This happened to us once and the business cards we keep in the pockets helped to locate us for the finder.)

 

I hope you get your luggage back!

 

Thank you and yes I agree having identification inside is important. It also becomes worrisome. They say to have a copy of your passport somewhere else, but is that place safe? Now with all this online 'cloud' stuff you could keep it there but is it really safe? I am not over cautious about the world wide web but there is some information I would not want just 'hanging' out there. Two or more people can do what they can to spread their 'stuff' between themselves but what about the solo traveller? Sometimes it all speeds along just a little too fast for my liking.

 

 

 

Rochelle

[SoCal Cruiser78]

...They say to have a copy of your passport somewhere else, but is that place safe? Now with all this online 'cloud' stuff you could keep it there but is it really safe? ...

 

It is a bit scary. I have considered emailing myself a pdf of my passport in case it gets lost or stolen when traveling alone, but I don't trust "the cloud" entirely. At this point, I keep the original on my person, and a copy in a carryon bag that stays with me.

 

I truly hope your bags are returned to you. In any case, you have brought increased awareness to travelers of the unrealistically low limits on financial recovery for lost or stolen luggage offered by carriers. I was aware of them in the past, but never took them too seriously.

 

Going forward, I will be making a greater effort to pack items of higher value in carryons, and those of lower-value in checked bags.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Ryndam2002

[Surreyman]

Each bag had the 'Grey 2' disembarkation tag on it. We each had a personal luggage tag on the outside with all details. Mine is a Canadian flag tag, my mothers is a giant wine glass. Copies of the our passports were inside the bag. Each bag also had a bow attached to it to distinguish it further.

 

 

All other tags (previous flight/ ship boarding) were already removed. There should have been no confusion from that.

 

 

Rochelle

 

Copies of passports inside checked luggage - not a good idea.

 

Hand luggage for anything like that - or email yourself them in a PDF so you can download them if needed or both.

[pv girl]

Facts:

 

 

 

3) Neither HAL, or any other cruise line, (Or any airline for that matter) would EVER give more than their stated limit. "Good customer relations" or not, if they ever DID give a customer more than the contracted limit, they would be opening themselves up for any number of FUTURE claims. It just aint gonna happen.

 

I know these to be facts as I worked in the airline industry for a number of years and this subject REPEATEDLY came up.

 

Sorry Fred, respectfully disagree. Have witnessed judges in small claims courts give plaintiffs what they asked for in compensation, despite defending companies citing their limits of liability. Also have seen companies do extraordinary things to settle issues and avoid negative publicity. There are no hard and fast rules where courts are involved or a company's public relations gestures. This case is not settled yet. Rochelle still has legal options she can pursue and HAL has not given her a settlement check yet.

 

Please folks, let's stop blaming her - what is done is done. And let's stop jumping to conclusions about the end result. She will let us know when it is all settled, and that may be a while down the road.

[serendipity1499]

Sorry Fred, respectfully disagree. Have witnessed judges in small claims courts give plaintiffs what they asked for in compensation, despite defending companies citing their limits of liability. Also have seen companies do extraordinary things to settle issues and avoid negative publicity. There are no hard and fast rules where courts are involved or a company's public relations gestures. This case is not settled yet. Rochelle still has legal options she can pursue and HAL has not given her a settlement check yet.

 

Please folks, let's stop blaming her - what is done is done. And let's stop jumping to conclusions about the end result. She will let us know when it is all settled, and that may be a while down the road.

 

But...Have you witnessed judges in small claims courts give plaintiffs what they asked for when the loss was not on U.S. soil?

 

What you are not taking into consideration, is the fact the bags were checked in a foreign country & the Psgr. disembarked in a foreign county..

 

I too worked for the airlines for 32 years & lost luggage in any other country was compensated for at the stated limits.. If a Psgr refused to cash the check & the loss was in the U.S. they may have been able to win a higher amount in small claims court.

 

I'm not sure that a small claims court would even permit Psgrs. to bring law suits in the U.S. for luggage lost in Europe are you?

 

As mentioned previously lost luggage seems to be covered by the Athens Convention..See Post 108 & also my questions about the IMF rules in the Athens Conventiion (Post 116) which have not been answered..

 

You also forget that the OP had a previous loss on another cruise line & at that time was cautioned about taking out insurance in the future, but completely ignored the warning..

Edited July 12, 2014 by serendipity1499

[DaveOKC]

My mothers most valuable item was her back up trifocal glasses.

 

Mine unfortunately was a silver rope necklace. I would never usually put anything like that in my suitcase but in this situation on the last formal night I had taken off my jewelry and placed it in my evening bag. It was one of the last items I had put in the suitcase. My intention was to trade out the space with my toiletry bag in the morning prior to checking the suitcase in at the airport.

 

Fortunately my electronics, laptop and iphone were with me.

Rochelle

 

I wonder if the silver rope necklace had anything to do with the luggage going missing? If I were to steal it from the luggage, I would be sure to lose the entire suitcase.

 

Also, I am glad I do not know the price of used underwear at Goodwill!

 

DaveOKC

[Donray]

SURE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND THE LAW.

 

Used cloths were not worth $4000. Again, what anyone is entailed to is the deprecated value. And, cloths deprecate very rapidly.

 

And yes I do think they were worth more than $100 but very far less then $4000. But like a moving company that states they are responsible up to 10 cents a pound unless you get more insurance the OP signed a contract for $100 worth per person is luggage is lost.

 

I don't understand the people that think used cloths are worth the purchase value.

 

Can OP prove the original cost and date, NO. Can the OP prove how many times the cloths were worn? NO.

 

The OP needs to be realistic about the value. Sorry, but you are only entitled to depreciated value.

 

Like I said, how much is a bright orange maids maid dress worth that was only worn once? How much would you pay? Suppose the original price was $500 is it still worth $500 five years latter.

[uilleann]

SURE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND THE LAW.

 

Used cloths were not worth $4000. Again, what anyone is entailed to is the deprecated value. And, cloths deprecate very rapidly.

 

And yes I do think they were worth more than $100 but very far less then $4000. But like a moving company that states they are responsible up to 10 cents a pound unless you get more insurance the OP signed a contract for $100 worth per person is luggage is lost.

 

I don't understand the people that think used cloths are worth the purchase value.

 

Can OP prove the original cost and date, NO. Can the OP prove how many times the cloths were worn? NO.

 

The OP needs to be realistic about the value. Sorry, but you are only entitled to depreciated value.

 

Like I said, how much is a bright orange maids maid dress worth that was only worn once? How much would you pay? Suppose the original price was $500 is it still worth $500 five years latter.

 

Here is an alternative view. I had my large plasma tv and a couple of expensive laptops stolen from my home. It was covered under my home insurance and I got full replacement value not depreciated value. Now that was insurance and not loss from an entity that had responsibility for my goods but it does show that expectation from a loss can be full replacement. Another thought, I think we have to give the benefit of doubt to the OP. The replacement cost of the clothing is $4000. You may think that she should only get the depreciated value but she will still suffer a great loss at that in that she will only be able to get a fraction or new cloths back. When you pay as much as you pay for these cruises and the company says... Give us your luggage and you will see it on the dock. And its not there. The cruise line caused a loss to her. And saying it may be the ports responsibility makes no sense to me. The ship cruise line promised the luggage would be there. They cannot transfer that responsibility unless the owner agrees.

 

That is what I think.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Linda&Vern]

My feeling is that the OP should have bought insurance that included luggage coverage. "If" she gets reimbursed by HAL for the $$$$ she is claiming - then why should I have to pay for luggage insurance on my travel policy? What about someone who has to cancel a week before their cruise and didn't buy insurance. Should HAL start refunding those cruise fares? Just some thoughts.

 

Someone already posted HAL policy on luggage ($100 or $600, depending on if you bought HAL insurance). But here's another baggage notice on HAL's website:

 

Q: Do I Need Baggage Insurance?

 

A: Although we try to handle your bags carefully while they are in our possession, please be aware that Holland America Line cannot guarantee there will be no loss of, or damage to, your luggage or belongings. For this reason, we suggest you purchase luggage insurance before you leave home. Your travel professional can provide you with additional information if you are interested in this option.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Linda&Vern