HAL no longer requires formal dress

[LMaxwell]

Sounds good to me. To each their own as is often repeated here.

[cruz chic]

Please show me where you see the word everyone? Why do you think HAL is making the change? What do you base your opinion on other than just your personal experience on a HAL ship? My opinion is similar to comments made by sppunk and not based on personal knowledge of the reasons HAL made the change. My statement was "Adapting to the times and making changes favored by most of it's customers are needed to ensure profitability and fill the new/larger ships" did not say new/larger HAL ships and was a statement about cruise lines in general but may be a reason that also applies to HAL.

 

I've had many, many cruises on Hal, well over 300 days. I'm just wondering why the MDR gets so full on formal night "if casual is favoured". I have not heard an answer when I've asked that ever. In my opinion Hal has not changed anything. It's taking a wishy washy approach like it always does so it doesn't offend anyone.

[cruz chic]

304 posts to date ... Has anyone who had an opinion after reading the first post actually changed their opinion yet? I doubt it. What a waste of time !:rolleyes:

 

Why read it then? It's not mandatory. Of course no one has changed their mind but I'm not sure why it needs to be squashed either. It will go on as long as it needs to go on.

[dakrewser]

It's quite easy to say anything because you think it's so. Maybe where you live it is that way. When I'm in downtown Calgary I would say most people are dressed up. Yup, even the millennials. If you go to Tim Hortons or Walmart probably not. I wonder why the MDR is so busy or formal nights. Maybe the millennials aren't there :D. I don't think gala night in pretend formal wear is necessary but I don't proclaim to make a broad sweeping statement that its the preference of everyone. I especially wouldn't do it if it's a line that I don't have much experience with.

 

No one said its the preference of "everyone", just the greater number of HAL's clientele.

 

The MDR is full on Gala nights because people expect better food on those nights. From what we're hearing from recent cruisers that is no longer the case.

 

And, before you ask, I speak from 20 years of experience on HAL. And Milennials think my children are old!

 

;)

[cruz chic]

No one said its the preference of "everyone", just the greater number of HAL's clientele.

 

The MDR is full on Gala nights because people expect better food on those nights. From what we're hearing from recent cruisers that is no longer the case.

 

And, before you ask, I speak from 20 years of experience on HAL. And Milennials think my children are old!

 

;)

 

I can tell you one thing. If I didn't want to dress up "better" food would not make me do it. Food might have been better the last time you sailed on Hal but a lot has changed in the intervening years. My first cruise was in 1984, the last one was in May.

[POA1]

304 posts to date ... Has anyone who had an opinion after reading the first post actually changed their opinion yet? I doubt it. What a waste of time !:rolleyes:

Not sure what post # this is going to be, but I've definitely changed my mind. Upon careful consideration, I've reached the conclusion that it's a good thing. In the past, people were well dressed because it was required. Now, the well dressed folk will be nattily attired by choice, not by fiat. Definitely a game changer. You'll be able to identify "your kind of people" much easier.

[POA1]

I've had many, many cruises on Hal, well over 300 days. I'm just wondering why the MDR gets so full on formal night "if casual is favoured". I have not heard an answer when I've asked that ever. In my opinion Hal has not changed anything. It's taking a wishy washy approach like it always does so it doesn't offend anyone.

You're spot on. Could it be possible that Cruise Critic participants are the lowest common denominator?*** Could it be that some people are going to try to pass their bath robes off as "collared shirts" with some sort of shorts-extending pants dickies to make things copacetic for gala nights?

 

*** Not you, of course. I'm referring to those other people.

Edited August 11, 2015 by POA1

[AncientWanderer]

304 posts to date ... Has anyone who had an opinion after reading the first post actually changed their opinion yet? I doubt it. What a waste of time !:rolleyes:

 

Honestly, this thread has influenced me as well. Lately I've been packing cocktail dresses, but we have two long cruises booked and I am going to pack gowns this time, and dinner jacket for DH instead of a dark suit.

Edited August 11, 2015 by AncientWanderer

[sofietucker]

Exactly! Look at Society! :eek: Hardly an improvement from days gone by, IMO! The way people not only dress but act! It's all about ME and no one is going to tell ME any differently! Blah, blah, blah, blah! Very sad!

 

Right. Here (on cruises) it's expressed as "I paid for this cruise, and I'll d*** well wear what I want! To hell with everybody else!"

[POA1]

Lisa, where did you get the information that HAL has the least amount of crew of any cruise line? Just curious.

Could be that she's making it up. Just off the top of my head Royal Caribbean, Norwegian, and Carnival have higher passenger to crew ratios.

[POA1]

Removed for redundancy.

Edited August 11, 2015 by POA1

[idiebabe]

There's many holes in your story. Attendance in churches is waning. People would rather sleep in. Therefore they need members so anything goes to fill pews. Airlines didn't "Relax" dress codes. Joe Schmo who wants to fly in sweatpants changed it. If I'm hiring an attorney he better have a suit and tie on.

 

How come newscasters all wear suit and ties? Didn't they get the memo to just roll in "As Is"

 

Agree!

 

No one said its the preference of "everyone", just the greater number of HAL's clientele.

 

 

;)

 

How do you know it's the preference of the greater number of HAL's clientele! If there was a survey on this by HAL (or you), we didn't receive one! In fact, seven cruises in the past year and five of those on HAL, we didn't see or hear anyone moaning about Formal Nights. Actually, everyone seemed to enjoy themselves wearing their Suits and Cocktail Dresses dancing in the Ocean Bar, BB King, the Black and White Ball, etc. In addition, the majority also dressed very nice on Cruise Casual nights (not as dressy as Formal Nights but very nice)!

 

Most changes happen because of a minority being vocal and not the other way around!

[Lizzie68]

There's many holes in your story. Attendance in churches is waning. People would rather sleep in. Therefore they need members so anything goes to fill pews. Airlines didn't "Relax" dress codes. Joe Schmo who wants to fly in sweatpants changed it. If I'm hiring an attorney he better have a suit and tie on.

 

How come newscasters all wear suit and ties? Didn't they get the memo to just roll in "As Is"

 

(Bolding mine) I totally disagree with this one. Airlines indirectly relaxed the dress code by reducing service, squeezing in as many seats as possible, "relaxing" the cleaning of the cabin interior so you get pretty darned grubby just sitting there, and making flying a complete ordeal and a cattle run. I well remember the days when we dressed up to fly - it doesn't make sense to do so anymore. It was a whole different industry back then.

[LMaxwell]

Right. Here (on cruises) it's expressed as "I paid for this cruise, and I'll d*** well wear what I want! To hell with everybody else!"

 

Are you suggesting that booking a cruise for my own personal pleasure is wrong?

 

It's not a to hell with anybody else mentality, it's a 'I do me, you do you' mentality.

 

Try this rationale out:

 

I won't do something because it brings me displeasure. That's fine.

 

You can't do something because it brings me displeasure. That's not fine.

 

By the way, formal nights have not been eliminated and anyone is free to dress up as much as they want, AND as often as they want; morning, noon, and night. Honestly, HAL is just providing MORE options for changing demographics so they can fill larger ships. I don't see how more options, without infringing on people's current choices, is a bad thing. I'm not one of those guys that needs to control everything other people do so maybe I'm missing something. Do I expect common decency amongst guests? Yes. But I'm not participating in some sort of group support for them. They have their pleasures, I have mine, the next guy has his. As long as no harm is done, I see no foul. And please spare me the strawman garbage about people coming to MDR in bathrobes or sweaty workout clothes. Never saw it on any line, any ship, in 25+ years.

[Cruizer Bill]

Most people see a cruise as a vacation - a chance to relax and have some fun.

 

There has always been the Lido to go to. My first HAL cruise was only 6 years ago but I recall you could wear just about anything in the Lido, even on "formal" nights. That's where the people who wanted to dress casual went to eat.

[sofietucker]

Are you suggesting that booking a cruise for my own personal pleasure is wrong?

 

It's not a to hell with anybody else mentality, it's a 'I do me, you do you' mentality.

 

Try this rationale out:

 

I won't do something because it brings me displeasure. That's fine.

 

You can't do something because it brings me displeasure. That's not fine.

 

By the way, formal nights have not been eliminated and anyone is free to dress up as much as they want, AND as often as they want; morning, noon, and night. Honestly, HAL is just providing MORE options for changing demographics so they can fill larger ships. I don't see how more options, without infringing on people's current choices, is a bad thing. I'm not one of those guys that needs to control everything other people do so maybe I'm missing something. Do I expect common decency amongst guests? Yes. But I'm not participating in some sort of group support for them. They have their pleasures, I have mine, the next guy has his. As long as no harm is done, I see no foul. And please spare me the strawman garbage about people coming to MDR in bathrobes or sweaty workout clothes. Never saw it on any line, any ship, in 25+ years.

 

To your question: absolutely not. For heaven's sake, please review the context in which I wrote what I said (what I replied to). To clarify my remark, to the "I paid for it and I'll do what I want/to hell with everyone else" attitude, I would include these actions, all of which I have been subjected at one time or another on various cruises:

 

"It's fine for me to shove you out of the way to enter the elevator; to cut in line and reach over you to grab food in the Lido; to drip all over you as I jostle your chair by the pool; to talk loudly and check my phone while sitting next to you in the theater; to arrive late to dinner (making everyone else wait) and plop down at our shared table, interrupt everyone and make boorish comments, insult the people in the ports we are visiting [one guy at our table of 8 actually described the citizens as "j*****os"--oblivious to the icy silence that followed]; boss the waitstaff; let my unsupervised kids commandeer the pool or all the elevators, pushing all the buttons & not allowing people to enter, or let them lounge & block the stairs, or run wild through the corridors at midnight; publicly swat my kids & curse them or fight with my spouse..." Etc.

 

None of that, to me, is "I do me, you do you." It's undignified and reflects poorly on the person engaging in these actions. It's not respectful of others; it's selfish and flat-out rude.

 

But unfortunately, as was noted in the comments I quoted and agreed with in my post, this sort of attitude--"I'm entitled to be rude because I PAID"--seems to be showing up more than in the past.

 

We agree re: not infringing on other people and common decency. The above behaviors don't ruin my cruise. I continue to cruise and more often than not, find my fellow passengers to be decent, intelligent, interesting, polite--and kind. I DO observe an attitudinal shift in our society that also seems to be reflected on ships.

 

PS: You're mistaking me for someone else. In none of my posts have I mentioned bathrobes or sweaty workout clothes; consider yourself spared.

Edited August 11, 2015 by sofietucker

[CruisinHarvey]

I'm absolutely surprised by all the traditionalist response to this. You really didn't this coming!!!! I GAVE YOU MORE CREDIT THAN YOU DESERVE.

 

You do know that traditional cruising is a niche market right? It doesn't have the mass appeal. It never did. The numbers just don't support any argument you can make to the contrary.

 

When traditional cruising was the approach, Cruising itself was more of a niche market. There were so many fewer berths to fill. The cruise industry was not even approaching the number of people it needs fill the number of ships now.

 

You're in the know when it comes to HAL right? Do you know how their capacity has changed. Until 2000, their largest ship was 1350 passengers, Since then the smallest ship is around 1900. All those extra passengers don't necessarily have the same "tradition". So, even if the same number of people wanted to dress up formally on HAL as in 2000( which is not the case), Holland would need to find an additional 550 people who wanted to go formal, just to fill their smallest new ship. So it's not that there's not demand for formal. There's not enough demand for the new ships. Holland is expanding. New ship coming out shortly, with 2650 capacity. Where are those formal traditionalist going to come from?

 

Cunard is sticking with the older model. I hope they can continue. It shouldn't be too hard, since they only have 3 ships. You don't need as much mass appeal with so few berths.

 

Really!!! You didn't see this coming???

[blizzardboy]

I still think the majority of HAL cruisers appreciate the traditional approach. A vocal minority is still a minority. They shouldn't ruin it for the rest of us.

[LMaxwell]

To clarify my remark, to the "I paid for it and I'll do what I want/to hell with everyone else" attitude, I would include these actions, all of which I have been subjected at one time or another on various cruises:

 

"It's fine for me to shove you out of the way to enter the elevator; to cut in line and reach over you to grab food in the Lido; to drip all over you as I jostle your chair by the pool; to talk loudly and check my phone while sitting next to you in the theater; to arrive late to dinner (making everyone else wait) and plop down at our shared table, interrupt everyone and make boorish comments, insult the people in the ports we are visiting [one guy at our table of 8 actually described the citizens as "j*****os"--oblivious to the icy silence that followed]; boss the waitstaff; let my unsupervised kids commandeer the pool or all the elevators, pushing all the buttons & not allowing people to enter, or let them lounge & block the stairs, or run wild through the corridors at midnight; publicly swat my kids & curse them or fight with my spouse..." Etc.

 

None of that, to me, is "I do me, you do you." It's undignified and reflects poorly on the person engaging in these actions. It's not respectful of others; it's selfish and flat-out rude.

 

 

I agree with you 100% there. None of those behaviors are what I consider acceptable. They all have negative impacts to those around them. I don't find any of it funny or in good fun.

 

However, I do not lump dressing smart casual in there at all.

 

I think you and I may overall be more in agreement than disagreement.

 

I still think the majority of HAL cruisers appreciate the traditional approach. A vocal minority is still a minority. They shouldn't ruin it for the rest of us.

 

HAL is offering more options. HAL is still a conservative line and I don't think the clientele is going to change drastically because of a relaxing of dress suggestions. It's simply an option. You don't have to avail yourself of the option and if you do not, not much is going to change for you, if at all.

 

If you truly believe that those that have lobbied for a smart casual approach are a minority you won't have many to stand the mere sight of, would you?

 

Please explain what is being ruined? HAL is not changing the menu, setting, or service. To me, if anything, this should relax nerves on all sides. People that stare and make comments or chase the maitre D' (I think it is absurd when people do that and I can't believe they admit it) will now be able to relax knowing that smart casual is A-OK by the cruise line standards and everyone can get on with enjoying their dinner. Isn't that what you are there for? So enjoy yourself.

Edited August 11, 2015 by LMaxwell

[JPH814]

I agree that this change is a result of HAL's recognition of changes in society. One of the changes is the trend toward more casual attire. I get it. But another is the trend against rules: rules don't apply to me; If i don't like a rule, ignore it. The first is a fact of life. The second is regrettable.

Edited August 11, 2015 by JPH814

[qsuzi]

Could be that she's making it up. Just off the top of my head Royal Caribbean, Norwegian, and Carnival have higher passenger to crew ratios.

 

Good morning POA. Did you really mean HAL has higher passenger to crew ratios (PSR) as I've read on the HAL board and website? I've read so much on this board from HAL regulars about how service has declined and that there are fewer staff. Are HAL PSR's lower than in past years?

 

PSR on the last 3 ships we most recently sailed is: Veendam 35, Crown Princess 31, and RCI Jewel OTS 36. We had much better service in the Lido on the Crown than on the Veendam and Jewel and overall comparable service in the MDR. Overall, service between cruise lines was comparable and our room steward on the Jewel was the best/among the best we ever had.

Edited August 11, 2015 by qsuzi

[LMaxwell]

Good morning POA. Did you really mean HAL has higher passenger to crew ratios (PSR) as I've read on the HAL board and website? I've read so much on this board from HAL regulars about how service has declined and that there are fewer staff. Are HAL PSR's lower than in past years?

 

PSR on the last 3 ships we most recently sailed is: Veendam 35, Crown Princess 31, and RCI Jewel OTS 36. We had much better service in the Lido on the Crown than on the Veendam and Jewel and overall comparable service in the MDR. Overall, service between cruise lines was comparable and our room steward on the Jewel was the best/among the best we ever had.

 

 

PSR is passenger space ratio and is a number derived from the amount of enclosed space on a ship (the gross enclosed volume of a ship is what is called tonnage; not the weight of a ship) divided amongst the number of passengers a ship can hold. It is basically a volumetric calculation.

 

Two ships of equal tonnage and interior spaces will have the same PSR, even if one of the ships has a massive outdoor pool deck since outdoor spaces are not calculated in PSR. In reality the ship with the large outdoor deck is going to provide more space for guests even though both ships has the same PSR.

 

It is not a metric for service levels.

 

For a calculation of crew to pax ratio you would need to know how many guests on a sailing, and of the total ships crew, how many are guest facing services such as housekeeping, dining, and bar tending. Then just divide. Maritime officers, ship maintenance, engineering really should not count in this equation.

Edited August 11, 2015 by LMaxwell

[Wakepatrol]

I agree with you 100% there. None of those behaviors are what I consider acceptable. They all have negative impacts to those around them. I don't find any of it funny or in good fun.

 

However, I do not lump dressing smart casual in there at all.

 

I think you and I may overall be more in agreement than disagreement.

 

 

 

HAL is offering more options. HAL is still a conservative line and I don't think the clientele is going to change drastically because of a relaxing of dress suggestions. It's simply an option. You don't have to avail yourself of the option and if you do not, not much is going to change for you, if at all.

 

If you truly believe that those that have lobbied for a smart casual approach are a minority you won't have many to stand the mere sight of, would you?

 

Please explain what is being ruined? HAL is not changing the menu, setting, or service. To me, if anything, this should relax nerves on all sides. People that stare and make comments or chase the maitre D' (I think it is absurd when people do that and I can't believe they admit it) will now be able to relax knowing that smart casual is A-OK by the cruise line standards and everyone can get on with enjoying their dinner. Isn't that what you are there for? So enjoy yourself.

 

 

What everyone keeps leaving out is

 

There are many clueless people who haven't the foggiest notion of what Country Club or Smart Casual is. Therefore you end up eating dinner with a guy in a football jersey and a trucker cap. Yes it happens.

[qsuzi]

PSR is passenger space ratio and is a number derived from the amount of enclosed space on a ship (the gross enclosed volume of a ship is what is called tonnage; not the weight of a ship) divided amongst the number of passengers a ship can hold. It is basically a volumetric calculation.

 

Two ships of equal tonnage and interior spaces will have the same PSR, even if one of the ships has a massive outdoor pool deck since outdoor spaces are not calculated in PSR. In reality the ship with the large outdoor deck is going to provide more space for guests even though both ships has the same PSR.

 

It is not a metric for service levels.

 

For a calculation of crew to pax ratio you would need to know how many guests on a sailing, and of the total ships crew, how many are guest facing services such as housekeeping, dining, and bar tending. Then just divide. Maritime officers, ship maintenance, engineering really should not count in this equation.

Thanks L Maxwell. Is there a source that will provide information on the percentage/number of cruise line staff to passengers? Do you think the number of HAL crew has declined? POA was responding to Lisa's statement that "HAL has the least amount of crew of any cruise line". Not sure if this is based on her personal opinion and experience and/or data/information available to her.

 

My current understanding is that PSR gives one an idea of how crowded a given ship will be rather than the gross tonnage. PSR space ratio is the gross tonnage divided by the passenger capacity. The higher the number, the more space per passenger. How crowded you will feel also depends upon passenger flow - - the movement and distribution of the passengers throughout the ship.

Edited August 11, 2015 by qsuzi

[LMaxwell]

What everyone keeps leaving out is

 

There are many clueless people who haven't the foggiest notion of what Country Club or Smart Casual is. Therefore you end up eating dinner with a guy in a football jersey and a trucker cap. Yes it happens.

 

 

Those of us who can fully understand country club / smart casual / resort wear shouldn't have to suffer because of the dumbest or most ignorant of the herd. Hey, look, it happens NOW with those kind, it's going to happen ANYWAY. HAL is providing options for everyone to make up their mind and decide.

 

How sad is it that we have to keep implementing rules because of the lowest common denominators out there. They won't change. It just restricts others. If the policy defines the baseline as collared shirts and no hats, and people come in that way, it's as much the companies fault as the guests. Both are complicit.

 

A relaxed dress guideline should tend to the vast majority of cruisers providing reasonable options, because you can never ensure anything is 100%. I've yet to hear how exercising my option infringes on anyone. I've yet to understand what is so off putting about a pair of slacks and a golf shirt.

 

I think it is wise at this point in time for HAL to have a more inclusive policy. They have more berths coming along and must have demand to meet supply. Being overly restrictive in this day and age isn't the key to financial success. With all the complaints about food quality, it is really no wonder why some no longer want to bother either. Like I said, to each their own, and everyone enjoy.