Pacific Coastal + 1 day back to Seattle = PVSA violation?

[RJ2002]

I am sorry to create another PVSA / Jones Act thread, but I am confused after reading some earlier threads on the Princess forum.

 

I am booked on the Eurodam April 24-28 sailing, San Diego to Vancouver. Today, I tried to add on a B2B, staying on the Eurodam for the April 28-29 sailing from Vancouver to Seattle. I received a very quick automated email from HAL (forwarded by TA) that this was in violation of the PVSA.

 

OK, so I did some research here on CC, and saw several references that if you changed ships, there is no violation. I see that the Oosterdam is making that same 1 day sailing on April 28. So, I called HAL to inquire, and was told that even changing ships is a violation of the PVSA.

 

Did I speak with an uninformed HAL agent, or will changing ships still not get around the violation?

Edited January 13, 2017 by RJ2002

[DAllenTCY]

Yes, the one day add on is illegal. Basically you are attempting from San Diego to Seattle, and that is not allowed without 24 hours in Canada.

 

David

Edited January 14, 2017 by DAllenTCY

[Essiesmom]

A vessel cannot transport you from one US port to another without calling at a distant foreign port, which would have to be in South America. Canada won't do. However, you can spend a night in Vancouver and get back on the same ship and it is legal. but hard to do, as the same ship doesn't overnight there. However, it is legal to get on a different ship for the ON to Seattle. You spoke with an uninformed agent in the second case with the Oosterdam. EM

[igraf]

I looked into this in the past and was told that I would need to spend two nights in a hotel between cruises if using the same cruise line (typically on two different ships).

 

You *might* get away with one night in hotel if using two different cruise lines. Definitely not OK for the same day.

 

You might be tempted to use two different bookings to do this, but if it is discovered while on the first cruise then the second cruise might get cancelled.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

 

I am sorry to create another PVSA / Jones Act thread, but I am confused after reading some earlier threads on the Princess forum.

 

I am booked on the Eurodam April 24-28 sailing, San Diego to Vancouver. Today, I tried to add on a B2B, staying on the Eurodam for the April 28-29 sailing from Vancouver to Seattle. I received a very quick automated email from HAL (forwarded by TA) that this was in violation of the PVSA.

 

OK, so I did some research here on CC, and saw several references that if you changed ships, there is no violation. I see that the Oosterdam is making that same 1 day sailing on April 28. So, I called HAL to inquire, and was told that even changing ships is a violation of the PVSA.

 

Did I speak with an uninformed HAL agent, or will changing ships still not get around the violation?

Edited January 14, 2017 by igraf

[DAllenTCY]

Others who have attempted the same B2B have eventually been notified that they must choose one sailing or the other.

 

There are many such reports on CC.

 

David

[jtl513]

However, it is legal to get on a different ship for the ON to Seattle. You spoke with an uninformed agent in the second case with the Oosterdam. EM

No, the agent was correct. You must spend 24 hours in CA, even if the 2nd leg is on a different ship.

 

The ship doesn't matter because it the passenger that is not allowed to make a continuous voyage from one US port to another without a stop in a distant foreign port.

 

You can be certain if changing ships made it legal that HAL would advertise and sell such b2b's.

.

Edited January 14, 2017 by jtl513

[DaveOKC]

A couple of years ago I did a Seattle to Seattle 7 day cruise and then a bus to Vancouver where I stayed overnight. The next day I did a Vancouver to San Diego cruise. Both cruises on HAL.

 

Does this help?

Edited January 14, 2017 by DaveOKC

[jtl513]

I know that people have posted on this forum that they have managed to skirt the law by changing cruise lines and departing Vancouver on the same day as arrival ... but that just means that nobody caught the violation.

Edited January 14, 2017 by jtl513

[1025cruise]

I know that people have posted on this forum that they have managed to skirt the law by changing cruise lines and departing Vancouver on the same day as arrival ... but that just means that nobody caught the violation.

 

This is actually not a violation. The rule is that a foreign carrier cannot transport a passenger between two US cities without stopping at a distant foreign port. So changing cruise lines is legal as it will be two different carriers.

[igraf]

Are the various Carnival Corporation cruise lines considered to be the same foreign carrier?

 

igraf

 

 

This is actually not a violation. The rule is that a foreign carrier cannot transport a passenger between two US cities without stopping at a distant foreign port. So changing cruise lines is legal as it will be two different carriers.

[RJ2002]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

I was vaguely familiar with the PVSA, but now that I've actually attempted to book something that runs afoul with the law, it's clearer to me now.

 

Looking back at my first posting, I made a mistake in the Oosterdam sailing. It leaves Vancouver for Seattle on April 29, one day after the Eurodam arrives in Vancouver. So, I suppose I could stay overnight in Vancouver and sail back to Seattle on the Oosterdam without any issues.

 

Again, thanks for the dialogue.

[chengkp75]

Okay, once again, HAL customer service is incorrect. The stipulation of the PVSA is that a foreign flag ship cannot transport you between US ports without a distant foreign port.

 

Changing ships on the same day is perfectly legal, as this is two voyages on two separate ships. The same thing applies with changing cruise lines, since by definition, you would be changing ships.

 

The one calendar day rule comes into effect if staying on the same ship.

 

There can be no PVSA violation when more than one ship is involved.

 

And, no, it is not the passenger who cannot travel between US ports, it is all about the ship, the one ship.

Edited January 14, 2017 by chengkp75

[jtl513]

Changing ships on the same day is perfectly legal, as this is two voyages on two separate ships.

Since the PVSA now also applies to planes, does this mean (for example) I could fly Air Canada from Orlando to Seattle as long as I changed planes in Toronto? And if not, why not?

The one calendar day rule comes into effect if staying on the same ship.

If a ship stayed overnight in Vancouver, could you stay on board and be legal, or would you have to get a land hotel? Edited January 14, 2017 by jtl513

[igraf]

It is quite rare for a cruise ship to spend the night in either Seattle or Vancouver BC, so that arguing that the "one night ashore" rule only applies to the same ship is moot.

 

Also, I can personally vouch that cruise lines will NOT allow one to book the one-day add on cruise on the same day even if on different ships. Legal or not, they just will not do it.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

Okay, once again, HAL customer service is incorrect. The stipulation of the PVSA is that a foreign flag ship cannot transport you between US ports without a distant foreign port.

 

Changing ships on the same day is perfectly legal, as this is two voyages on two separate ships. The same thing applies with changing cruise lines, since by definition, you would be changing ships.

 

The one calendar day rule comes into effect if staying on the same ship.

 

There can be no PVSA violation when more than one ship is involved.

 

And, no, it is not the passenger who cannot travel between US ports, it is all about the ship, the one ship.

[chengkp75]

Since the PVSA now also applies to planes, does this mean (for example) I could fly Air Canada from Orlando to Seattle as long as I changed planes in Toronto?

If a ship stayed overnight in Vancouver, could you stay on board and be legal, or would you have to get a land hotel?

 

PVSA has never applied to airlines. You are referring to the Air Cabotage Law (49 USC 41703). You could fly Air Canada from Orlando to Seattle on the same aircraft with a stop in Toronto, but there is a restriction on how long the stopover in Canada needs to be (several hours).

 

No. You must "permanently disembark" the ship (settle your bill and remove your luggage) and then return to the ship the next day. This wording was added when the PVSA was amended a few years ago to allow foreign flag cruise ships to call at multiple US ports on a closed loop cruise, since technically allowing someone to get off for a few hours in a second US port is "transportation between US ports".

 

I can't say whether or not igraf's assertion is correct or not, never having tried it personally, but people on Princess have done so, according to reports on CC.

[igraf]

In addition to HAL, I spent some time on the phone with NCL in early 2016 while they checked with managers. The final word with NCL was two nights ashore even though the two cruise ships were different.

 

I certainly could try to beat the system by booking the two cruises separately, but the truth is that I would be worrying about the second leg all during the first leg as they could cancel the second cruise right at embarkation. I try not to sabotage my vacations like that.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

...I can't say whether or not igraf's assertion is correct or not, never having tried it personally, but people on Princess have done so, according to reports on CC.

[chengkp75]

In addition to HAL, I spent some time on the phone with NCL in early 2016 while they checked with managers. The final word with NCL was two nights ashore even though the two cruise ships were different.

 

I certainly could try to beat the system by booking the two cruises separately, but the truth is that I would be worrying about the second leg all during the first leg as they could cancel the second cruise right at embarkation. I try not to sabotage my vacations like that.

 

igraf

 

That may be the NCL customer service manager's interpretation, but it is not the letter of the law, nor the CBP policy on it.

[chengkp75]

Every mention of "carriage of passengers" by a foreign flag vessel, either in 46 CFR 55103 (the most current codification of the PVSA), nor the CBP Informed Compliance document for ship owners is regarding a vessel. There is no mention, anywhere, or in any form, about carriage of passengers by multiple vessels.

[DAllenTCY]

If it were legitimate B2B, Holland America would offer it as they do so many other combined itineraries throughout the year.

 

David

P.S. Yes, it doesn't make sense to me, since you can fly into YVR and sail out an hour later, or vice versa. So why an overnight requirement is confusing.....but you just can't do it at this time.

[chengkp75]

If it were legitimate B2B, Holland America would offer it as they do so many other combined itineraries throughout the year.

 

David

P.S. Yes, it doesn't make sense to me, since you can fly into YVR and sail out an hour later, or vice versa. So why an overnight requirement is confusing.....but you just can't do it at this time.

 

That's because the actual B2B is not legal, but what the OP proposed is two separate cruises on two ships that happen to end and start on the same day.

[DAllenTCY]

Holland America told the OP that it can't be booked that way.....not me.

 

 

David

Edited January 15, 2017 by DAllenTCY

[igraf]

The cruise line has the final word as they will be the ones leaving you behind on the dock. You may be legally correct but it will cost you your vacation.

 

I don't support this law in any manner. I am just telling you how it is. Be careful about what you post as you may ruin someone else's vacation.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

That may be the NCL customer service manager's interpretation, but it is not the letter of the law, nor the CBP policy on it.

Edited January 15, 2017 by igraf

[Cruise Junky]

The cruise line has the final word as they will be the ones leaving you behind on the dock. You may be legally correct but it will cost you your vacation.

 

I don't support this law in any manner. I am just telling you how it is. Be careful about what you post as you may ruin someone else's vacation.

 

igraf

 

Not necessarily. The agents are useless and most don't understand it at all. Ask for it to be escalated to Legal and not some random agent making your vacation decisions. Everything chengkp75 typed was correct.

[chengkp75]

The cruise line has the final word as they will be the ones leaving you behind on the dock. You may be legally correct but it will cost you your vacation.

 

I don't support this law in any manner. I am just telling you how it is. Be careful about what you post as you may ruin someone else's vacation.

 

igraf

 

Thanks Captain Obvious, for telling me that the cruise line has the final say on whether or not they sell a product, kind of like any business deciding whether or not to sell any product. So, if the cruise line has the final say, how can anything I say end up ruining a vacation? Pretty inane post.

 

Holland America told the OP that it can't be booked that way.....not me.

 

David

 

No, one customer service agent stated it would not be allowed. As cruise junky says, what I am advocating is escalating this to a supervisor for clarification as to the violation.

[DAllenTCY]

I am a HAL supervisor.

 

David

Edited January 15, 2017 by DAllenTCY