New Cunard Ship coming in 2022

[Froxfield]

Like many here, I wasn't the impressed by the first "artist's impression" of the new ship. However, I think we will all have to face the economics of the ocean voyage industry at some time. Surely cruise prices are still at historically low levels in real terms? (I can't prove that statistically but it is the way it feels. There is no way we could have afforded transatlantic fares back in the good old days and QE2 was always an impossible dream right up there with Concorde). So I am grateful I can now afford to go and maybe the design of ships is the compromise to pay?

 

Some other comments here surprise me a bit. I am sorry but I don't find the appearance of QM2 to be particularly "sleek". She is one great big chunk of metal! The hull, for example rises very high and creates a slab of "black": for very good reasons! But she is very elegant inside (after the latest refit). And I have been on Celebrity's Solstice class and didn't miss the promenade deck one little bit. Which just goes to show how different various people's likes and requirements are, I suppose.

 

Now, at the risk of getting well and truly flamed, I will say that (for my money) the prettiest cruise ships afloat are the Disney Magic and Wonder. They were designed as tributes to liners of the past and feature proper promenade decks with wooden loungers! If you can ignore the Mickey Ears on the funnel, they look almost more Cunard than Cunard!? Disney has continued that practice even with its larger (and to my eyes less elegant) ships, which also feature a promenade deck with suspended lifeboats etc. But I am also sure that there are cost implications: Disney cruise prices anyone? There are no doubt other reasons why Cunard stalwarts would dislike Disney. I am afraid we enjoy both: in different ways.

 

Queen Alexandra was my first thought for a name.

[Colin_Cameron]

To add to the figures above:

 

The Cunard group entered WWII with a fleet of 78 ships.

 

The other number I have come across is that they came out of WWI having lost 45 ships, 56% of their tonnage. Suggesting the fleet at the start of WWI may have been larger.

 

So who has sailed on the most Cunard ships?

 

I'll start the bidding at ten, but I'm sure that will be beaten.

 

Colin.

[luckymal]

I know this is a bit early but how would one get on the maiden voyage of a new Cunard ship? Did any of you sail on the maiden voyage of the QV or QM2. Is it just a case of watching and booking early? I'm sure there would still be lots of "bugs" to work out on the first trip but how exciting would that be! As Rose Dawson said, "the china had never been used, the sheets had never been slept on".

 

Harold

I would think a good Travel Agent, my wife and I did the last voyage of the Coronia and QE2, the the maiden voyages on the Queen Mary 2, Queen Victoria and the Queen Elizabeth. May have been lucky? But we think a good T/A helps.;)

[cruiseshipfan18]

 

The angle of the rendering doesn’t help, it makes the front part of the ship look bigger.

[JPMoore]

Still, it's interesting to look at Fincantieri's concepts for QV and QE - helps us to see what could have been and on some level appreciate the 4th Cunarder's design.

 

 

(Taken from Maurizio Eliseo's book on Queen Elizabeth)

Edited September 26, 2017 by JPMoore

[bUU]

Sometimes I do feel these companies make a point... a real effort... to get rid of precisely the features and amenities that I like best. First Holland America Line and now Cunard.

Heh, well it is much more likely that they aren't really focusing on you, personally, with an eye toward taking away what you personally like, but rather are recognizing that these things you like that were once very popular and favored are not popular and favored by the cruise passengers that they need to survive long into the future.

 

Oh well, QE and QV are now "instant classics" in comparison.

That's a good point: What's classic changes. What was once classic becomes tragically antiquated and what was once brazenly avant garde becomes classic.

 

Things change and if you want to survive for another 177 years, you cannot be offering what you offered 177 years ago, or 100 years ago, or 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago: You need to be offering what is going to be serve the future of the enterprise going forward. Going back to the Carnival Corp. acquisition, the "old" Cunard was probably ready to go out of business entirely. It even seems clear that the poor condition of the ships at the time were misrepresented to the buyers, in order to make the sale. I would expect that Carnival was intent on trading on the 177 year British tradition to the extent that that fostered superior profits. If luxury passengers stop rewarding Carnival for offering that, then no doubt Carnival would stop investing in the trappings of it.

 

My question is (as I've asked with regard to the two mid-grade brands) why would Carnival need the extra overhead and costs associated with having two luxury brands? Of course, in this case it could simply be geographic differentiation. However, that would mean that we should see Cunard trend toward becoming a Seabourn clone. That's clearly not happening: Seabourn has much smaller ships than Cunard, much smaller than what Cunard is about to build. So assuming that I'm right about the fact that Carnival is no longer being rewarded by passengers for continuing the legacy trappings of British tradition of cruising, what the heck could be Carnival's path forward for Cunard? Are they aiming to evolve toward a mid-grade cruise line for the European market?

[Cruise Puss]

How about a Queen Camilla?

 

After all, it is entirely possible that she will be Queen (unless the separation, pending divorce rumours are true) and Charles will be King in 2022.

 

Definitely cannot be Camilla - she is not currently Queen and it would be an insult to our current Queen who is in-situ. This would also apply to a Queen Catherine (or Katherine) even though we have had both in the past. Youngsters would assume it referred to Prince William's wife.

 

Interesting comment regarding 'separation' and 'divorce rumours' - where does this come from? They are very happy together as far as it seems here in the UK.

[goodsailors]

Not sure many English would be happy with a Scottish Queen as they don't currently seem to want to continue being part of the 'United Kingdom'!

 

Think you need to update your thoughts, the majority of Scots voted against separating from the UK and that figure is increasing everyday, so not sure many Scots would be happy with an English Queen. After all look how Cunard changed the name from Queen Elizabeth the Second very quickly after she was named by the Queen.

[vagporto]

Although the official number of berths in the Koningsdam is 2650 (lower berths), the actual maximum number of guests of the ship is over 3000 (most sources say 3128 but I have also seen the number 3194). Thus, not all is lost: the new Queen may be a bit larger than Koningsdam but carrying the same number of passengers (or even a bit less).

 

On the other hand, if they were really speaking about the absolute number of passengers, that is a stupid PR mistake given the Cunard fans they were addressing.

[bUU]

On the other hand, if they were really speaking about the absolute number of passengers, that is a stupid PR mistake given the Cunard fans they were addressing.

It is important to keep in mind that any announcement of a new ship is not only directed to "fans". A critical audience for any public statement are investors (and indeed many passengers are investors). I would attribute most of the details offered, to the extent that they're offered, to managing investor expectations rather than passenger expectations.

[sail1658]

I think Cunard will keep the Queen's name theme for the new ship, so that they can have four-Queen events in the future. The old names such as Caronia and Mauretania don't mean anything to younger cruisers, which is the future market they will have to capture.

 

 

Perhaps it could be Queen Elizabeth 3 (QE3) or even Queen Elizabeth 2 (QE2) if she had been scrapped by 2022. That way they get continuity and a stylish logo. After all Mein Schiff have ships named 1-6.

[Austcruiser84]

Received a response from a message I sent to Cunard yesterday about my displeasure at the hideous shape of their fourth ship, informing me that the proposed design is not set in stone.

 

I certainly hope so!

[Guest SilverHengroen]

Although the official number of berths in the Koningsdam is 2650 (lower berths), the actual maximum number of guests of the ship is over 3000 (most sources say 3128 but I have also seen the number 3194). Thus, not all is lost: the new Queen may be a bit larger than Koningsdam but carrying the same number of passengers (or even a bit less).

 

On the other hand, if they were really speaking about the absolute number of passengers, that is a stupid PR mistake given the Cunard fans they were addressing.

That is a good point, I was thinking 3,000 lower berths in a design a smidgen larger than Koningsdam - and especially when Cunard tends to have more larger suites taking up a proportionally larger amount of space than other lines - seemed impossible. Approx 2600 seems about right, I believe that would give around the same space-passenger ratio as QV and QE Offer.

 

I get why they are needing to add more passengers per ship, they’re under pressure to keep prices static despite rising wholesale costs for food, fuel, etc - dividing the fuel and port charges between more people knocks a few extra precious £ off the price each customer pays. That’s likely the reason behind adding cabins to QM2 and QV.

 

Only thing I’d really like to see change is reducing the extra decks above the bridge, it really does make it look uncomfortably top heavy (not that I think it actually is dangerously unstable, modern cruise ships tend not to look it but actually have better righting moments than older liners such as QE2 and especially pre war liners). From renderings she will be as tall as QM2 - whose bridge is 135’ above the water line, but unlike QM2, the new ship won’t have a similar width, but be just 115’ wide.

 

 

Hopefully engaging with customers so early in the process means Cunard are sincere in wanting to take customers’ feedback on board. Hopefully the larger design will mean they can accommodate both a chart room and Britannia club restaurant!

[Underwatr]

Air draft as high as QM2 is an issue if they plan on Panama Canal transits. QM2 is too tall for unrestricted passage under the Bridge of the Americas although she can be permitted to pass beneath under very specific tidal conditions.

[Guest SilverHengroen]

Air draft as high as QM2 is an issue if they plan on Panama Canal transits. QM2 is too tall for unrestricted passage under the Bridge of the Americas although she can be permitted to pass beneath under very specific tidal conditions.

I believe (though don’t have a reliable source for this) that the pinnacle class are already Post Panamax at ~115’ by ~970’ - Panamax restricting to 106’ by 965’

[Jack E Dawson]

Thank you Jim Avery for the information on booking an inaugural cruise. I wonder if you would be willing to share your experiences on that cruise, specifically the up-side and down-side of a first sailing.

 

Harold

[Underwatr]

I believe (though don’t have a reliable source for this) that the pinnacle class are already Post Panamax at ~115’ by ~970’ - Panamax restricting to 106’ by 965’

In addition to the length and width limitations imposed by the locks, the clearance under the Bridge of the Americas (the "bridge at Balboa" below) imposes a height limit.

 

From the Regulation for Navigation in Canal Waters:

 

4. Maximum Height:

The allowable height for any vessel transiting the Canal or entering the Port of Balboa is 57.91 meters (190 feet) at any state of the tide, measured from the waterline to the highest point. Height may be permitted to 62.48 meters (205 feet), subject to approval of the Authority on a case*by*case basis, with passage at low water (MLWS) beneath the bridge at Balboa.

Determining a ship's height (air draft) is inexact because it depends on the ship's lading and the salinity of the water, so commonly you find the height above the keel in published data and have to determine the ship's (water) draft separately, but from previous iterations of the exercise I've learned that QM2's air draft works out to be in that range between 190 and 205 feet, which places it in the special category in which there are conditions in which it fits under the bridge with allowable clearance and other conditions in which the clearance is insufficient.

 

Obviously this clearance is more limiting than that under the Verazzano bridge in New York. At the time QM2 was built she was too large for the canal locks then in existence so the Balboa bridge clearance probably didn't enter into consideration. As an engineer my opinion is that following expansion of the canal any ship designed to be accommodated in the larger locks should also be designed for unrestricted passage under the Bridge of the Americas.

 

The early depictions of the new Cunard vessel make it appear to me to be one deck higher than ms Konigsdam, hence my curiosity on the subject.

[Bigmike911]

There are two sets of clues to the name of the new vessel.

 

First, since the formation of modern England there have been four names of Queens who have ruled in their own right, as opposed to being the King's Consort. These are Queen Elizabeth (1) 1558-1602, Elizabeth (2) 1952-Present, Queen Mary (who ruled as co-monarch with William of Orange-but Queen in her own right) 1688-1694, Queen Victoria 1837-1901, and Queen Anne 1702-1714.

 

The second clue at the front of Queen Mary 2 on deck 10, there are four suites. They are Queen Mary, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth and Queen Anne.

 

Thus, I predict the newest Cunard Queen will be Queen Anne.

[Teddy123]

There are two sets of clues to the name of the new vessel.

 

First, since the formation of modern England there have been four names of Queens who have ruled in their own right, as opposed to being the King's Consort. These are Queen Elizabeth (1) 1558-1602, Elizabeth (2) 1952-Present, Queen Mary (who ruled as co-monarch with William of Orange-but Queen in her own right) 1688-1694, Queen Victoria 1837-1901, and Queen Anne 1702-1714.

 

The second clue at the front of Queen Mary 2 on deck 10, there are four suites. They are Queen Mary, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth and Queen Anne.

 

Thus, I predict the newest Cunard Queen will be Queen Anne.

As I've already posted, I agree about there being four "real" queens, although I see Mary I (1516 - 1558) as the relevant one. She ruled on her own, before the union with Scotland, as did Elizabeth I. Anne was on the throne when the union took place.

 

Interesting point about the suite names.

[Guest SilverHengroen]

In addition to the length and width limitations imposed by the locks, the clearance under the Bridge of the Americas (the "bridge at Balboa" below) imposes a height limit.

 

From the Regulation for Navigation in Canal Waters:

 

4. Maximum Height:

The allowable height for any vessel transiting the Canal or entering the Port of Balboa is 57.91 meters (190 feet) at any state of the tide, measured from the waterline to the highest point. Height may be permitted to 62.48 meters (205 feet), subject to approval of the Authority on a case*by*case basis, with passage at low water (MLWS) beneath the bridge at Balboa.

Determining a ship's height (air draft) is inexact because it depends on the ship's lading and the salinity of the water, so commonly you find the height above the keel in published data and have to determine the ship's (water) draft separately, but from previous iterations of the exercise I've learned that QM2's air draft works out to be in that range between 190 and 205 feet, which places it in the special category in which there are conditions in which it fits under the bridge with allowable clearance and other conditions in which the clearance is insufficient.

 

Obviously this clearance is more limiting than that under the Verazzano bridge in New York. At the time QM2 was built she was too large for the canal locks then in existence so the Balboa bridge clearance probably didn't enter into consideration. As an engineer my opinion is that following expansion of the canal any ship designed to be accommodated in the larger locks should also be designed for unrestricted passage under the Bridge of the Americas.

 

The early depictions of the new Cunard vessel make it appear to me to be one deck higher than ms Konigsdam, hence my curiosity on the subject.

Ah yes I forgot they’d added the new locks to allow for bigger vessels! In that case yes it would very much depend on whether she’d fit under the bridge. As others have noted Cunard seem to have gone public at a very early stage suggesting they are probably genuine about taking their customers’ views on board in the design of the ship going forward.

 

Interesting about the extra deck vs Koningsdam ‘ it looks to me like the top deck is there on the HAL ship, but it’s been greatly expanded on the new Cunarder. I wonder if whatever is there at the moment might be dropped down a couple of decks into the space which is cabins on the Cunard design but public space on Koningsdam (it looks like it’s the fitness centre and spa from the deck plans).

 

I think Cunard might have been better off basing their new ship on the royal class rather than the pinnacle class, it’s a less controversial design to my eye. A fair bit bigger, yes, but they’ve already got QM2 at that size so they must know it can work with their model. I’m hoping they will expand the ‘Britannia club’ concept into a larger dining tier (like Caronia on QE2), and that they can retain more of the QM2s amenities that are missing on the smaller ships. Southampton registry would also be nice!

[Jim Avery]

Thank you Jim Avery for the information on booking an inaugural cruise. I wonder if you would be willing to share your experiences on that cruise, specifically the up-side and down-side of a first sailing.

 

Harold

A Maiden Voyage is a "mixed blessing" for sure. As others have mentioned, the sheets have most definitely been slept in. Our cabin was an ocean view forward on 4 deck and was quite comfortable as well as convenient to lifts. There were already a few stains on the sofa and carpeting as QM2 had been used already for a cruise for St. Nazaire workers and a freebie for Travel agents and such. Our trip was a combination of good and bad. The good: A beautiful new ship. Lots of events at the various ports. It didn't sink.:eek: The middle of the road: Several entertainers (American Idol of the day Reuben Foster comes to mind) never made it to the stage due to seasickness. Shirley Bassey was great on a rocking stage. Seats already started breaking in the Planetarium. The bad: Crew bailed out at every stop in fairly large numbers. The result was total disorganization in the passenger services area. Food was very hit or miss. Fellow passengers all came on board (at higher expense than usual) with great expectations. Rapidly they became unhappy and grouchy with the failure to meet said expectations. Finally, disembarkation was a total disaster. We stood on line for around 3 hours at the disembark stations waiting for then Governor Jeb Bush and Mickey Arison to arrive on board. Seems us peasants could not be allowed on the gangway till the VIPs had come up. We vowed no more Maiden Voyages. We also came home and booked SeaDream, 110 passengers, 95 crew. :cool: I did a full review of the event here on the Cunard boards but that was in early 2004 so might not still exist.

[Bigmike911]

As I've already posted, I agree about there being four "real" queens, although I see Mary I (1516 - 1558) as the relevant one. She ruled on her own, before the union with Scotland, as did Elizabeth I. Anne was on the throne when the union took place.

 

Interesting point about the suite names.

 

The Mary I referred to was not Mary Queen of Scots, it was Mary, daughter of James the II (VI of Scotland) who ruled after the "Glorious Revolution" as co monarch with William of Orange, whose reign is referred to as the reign of William and Mary.

[lemmilem]

I'm rather surprised by this news, I wonder what they will call her.

 

http://www.cunard.co.uk/cruise-ships/new-ship/

 

 

Well according to this website they might call her Britannia because any other name might be too controversial? https://cruisearabiaonline.com/2017/09/26/cruise-industry-cunard-face-dilemma-in-choosing-name-for-fourth-ship/

[omah1975]

Well according to this website they might call her Britannia because any other name might be too controversial? https://cruisearabiaonline.com/2017/09/26/cruise-industry-cunard-face-dilemma-in-choosing-name-for-fourth-ship/

 

I highly doubt that seeing as P&O already have a Britannia.

[koliviera45]

I highly doubt that seeing as P&O already have a Britannia.

 

My money's on one of the other queens entirely, Queen Anne, or they'll come out of left field with Queen Jane or Queen Matilda (April 1141 to November 1141) :')