Exclusive lounges = elitism?

[Ma Bell]

But that is an issue, at least for me. They remodel the older ships and add more cabins, they carve out two dining rooms and four or five premium restaurants, and all that space comes out of what the rest of us would like to use. For example, on Millennium class ships they took about a third of the main dining room space away. But the passengers who are using it are not a third of the passengers, it’s a smaller number, using more space and more waiters per passenger. But the amount of space overall and the number of waiters can’t increase, since space on a ship is pretty fixed. So the main dining room becomes more crowded, with fewer waiters, sommeliers, etc. I don’t begrudge suite passengers their extra perks that they’ve paid for, I begrudge them the space and the staff - the extra shares of a finite resource - that they’ve taken from the rest of us.

 

Did the passengers take the space from you?:confused:

[Silkroad]

No. I don’t like it either. Kind of makes me think we are in steerage, like the poor folks in the Titanic movie, and the others are elitists. Lol! I love NCL, but was upset to find that they had an adult area (the Vibe) that you had to pay $100pp to use! Really?? That’s nuts! At least RCCL has the Solarium and Carnival the Serenity area that are adult only and free. And, yes, I know that NCL has Spice H2O on some ships that all adults can use, but why charge for people to use the Vibe?

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

Interesting. I have several friends and acquaintances who routinely book Aqua cabins or suites. They do not book such cabins because they’re elitist people who think the rest of us are the unwashed masses from whom they must sequester themselves. Rather, they want (and are able and willing to pay for), complimentary access to Persian Gardens, or a more spacious cabin, or a smaller, quieter dining venue, or they enjoy hosting social gatherings in their suites (some of which I’ve had the pleasure of attending). Those of us who do not book those classes save a fat lot of money, some of which we can use to dine in a smaller, quieter venue such as Murano if we wish to do so.

 

This is nothing like the Titanic (though I’m sure you were at least partially joking with that analogy) and we passengers are definitely not steerage class. Not even close. My father served in the US Navy and my Grandfather served in the USMC. Trust me, I recall their stories about “cabins” and “amenities” available to them enroute to Korea and China, respectively, whenever I enter my posh veranda cabin, and I feel quite grateful for what I have.

[ScubesDad]

It's probably not specific to Celebrity, but I'll use them as the example: if you pay for a certain category of room you get access to restaurants or lounges that are off limits to the other passengers.

 

Does this rub anyone else the wrong way?

 

I have no problem with paying more for a room or a meal and getting a better room/meal....but getting the privilege of not having to share a space with your fellow passengers bugs me a little. Am I the only one?

 

 

When I read your first post, my original thought was, this is the ultimate concept of western society, a user pay system where you get what you pay for, as many other have indicated it is very prevalent in the travel industry. It is also very prevalent in every day life in terms of the house you live in, the car you drive and the general lifestyle you live.

 

 

 

I expected to be in the minority (my wife thinks I'm crazy :) ) I was just curious by how much. Like I said, I have no problem with getting a better room or better service or a better airline seat by paying more. The part that bothers me is the "nyah nyah...you can't come in" feature.

 

Then I read your second comment and the final sentence hit home the point you were trying to make "The part that bothers me is the "nyah nyah...you can't come in"....I agree with you, that attitude bothers me tremendously, and by definition that would be elitism.

 

Elitism - "the attitude or behaviour of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to a superior or dominating element of society"

 

 

 

I have some very strict guidelines I follow in social situations where polite conversation is expected; do not discuss politics or money. While on a cruise there is another category: loyalty status.

 

The behaviour you describe is boorish, and is traditionally viewed as the behaviour of the nouveau riche.(people who have recently acquired wealth, typically those who are perceived as ostentatious, having poor taste or lacking in the social graces). I acknowledge this does not apply to all NR.........

 

Depending on the ship you are on the number of people in suites are a relatively small portion of the entire passenger population on board. I will use the M class as an example. The number of top end suites, PH, RS, CS are very small 18 in total, the sky suites total 32. So a total of 50 suites out of more than 1000 cabins or about 5% of the passengers are in suites. I would argue that there are most likely one or two people who have that attitude on any given cruise.

 

I have been known to break my own rules on polite conversation when I encounter someone who challenges me to a game of bull**it poker....and I have the bruises on my shins to prove it from when my DW realises what is going to happen and tries to shut me up.

 

I think what is rubbing you the wrong way, is the very small percentage of people who attempt to flaunt what they have. That annoys everyone. From my experience the absolute majority of cruisers on -X- are there to enjoy life. I cannot comment on other cruise lines as all our cruises have been on -X-, and some of those have been in suites.

 

Follow your DW's advice, let it go, "don't sweat the small stuff".

[Jchivers]

I'm gratified to have launched such a lively debate! (Even if I'm not drawing a lot of supporters to my side. :) ) And I do see both sides on this question.

 

Trust me, I don't begrudge anyone their right to spend their money on whatever level of service they feel is worthwhile. I certainly do -- for me, a verandah is an absolute necessity.

 

The issue for me is exclusivity. For the areas in question, you're not just paying for the larger room; you're paying to get into a space that others can't. To get the secret password. That's the part that "bugs me".

 

I also suspect that if I ever decide to splurge on a suite and get that secret password, that I would enthusiastically join in and never look back. :)

 

Edited to add: ScubesDad gets it...thank you. Although, fortunately, I don't think I've encountered anyone who flaunts their exclusive access -- it's just the existence of the venue. And I shall endeavor to not sweat the small stuff.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Jchivers
P.S.

[Silkroad]

I sometimes think of it differently - if they are paying so much of a premium for the suites but still share most activities, why not go on a luxury line?

 

Have you ever considered the family group or group of friends scenarios in which they wish to cruise together but have different needs and budgets? Or the possibility that they are perfectly happy on Celebrity, but want a more spacious cabin? Or that the ambiance on luxury lines is not to their taste?

[ambrtonj]

Does it bother you to see a sign that says "Employees only beyond this point"?

[Fouremco]

But that is an issue, at least for me. They remodel the older ships and add more cabins, they carve out two dining rooms and four or five premium restaurants, and all that space comes out of what the rest of us would like to use. For example, on Millennium class ships they took about a third of the main dining room space away. But the passengers who are using it are not a third of the passengers, it’s a smaller number, using more space and more waiters per passenger. But the amount of space overall and the number of waiters can’t increase, since space on a ship is pretty fixed. So the main dining room becomes more crowded, with fewer waiters, sommeliers, etc. I don’t begrudge suite passengers their extra perks that they’ve paid for, I begrudge them the space and the staff - the extra shares of a finite resource - that they’ve taken from the rest of us.

People have short memories. When these changes were first announced, there were multiple threads decrying the decision to take away space from general use and repurpose it for a small minority. Time has passed and most of us have simply adjusted to and accepted the changes. Still, when I read threads bemoaning the wait time getting into the MDR and the lack of waiters and sommeliers once seated, I can't help thinking back to many of those threads. Had the OP started this thread a few years ago, I suspect that he would have received a good many more supportive responses. Today? No, it's a non-issue.

[Mike981]

Some will have issue with it and many won't. My DW and I do not. We have yet to book a super special cabin, but they sure look nice.

 

We have been fortunate enough to have butlers for some of our resort trips. We love them. My wife has a daycare business out of our house and when we have a butler, it feels like we just checked into Adult Daycare.

 

They unpack our bags and hang up our clothes (this was hard for my wife to go along with). They reserve beach/pool chairs wherever we wish. They will have a bar setup by the chairs, with our favorite beverages. They will come over at lunch time and surprise us with very good food. They also make dinner reservations for us and then come and personally walk us to our special table at the restaurant (the same with excursions). Oh I forgot! This is very cool, you are also given a cell phone so if your butler isn't around when you want something, you just give them a call and you wish is their command.

 

You get the idea. The hardest part with this level of service? Crashing back to earth when you leave.

[Silkroad]

I'm gratified to have launched such a lively debate! (Even if I'm not drawing a lot of supporters to my side. :) ) And I do see both sides on this question.

 

Trust me, I don't begrudge anyone their right to spend their money on whatever level of service they feel is worthwhile. I certainly do -- for me, a verandah is an absolute necessity.

 

The issue for me is exclusivity. For the areas in question, you're not just paying for the larger room; you're paying to get into a space that others can't. To get the secret password. That's the part that "bugs me".

 

I also suspect that if I ever decide to splurge on a suite and get that secret password, that I would enthusiastically join in and never look back. :)

 

You and ScubesDad have a point. I too dislike the entitled, sometimes even sneering, demeanor of a few people I’ve encountered on Celebrity (which is the only line I’ve sailed). Thankfully, most people are pleasant most of the time. It’s possible I’ll feel more shut out when I board Edge next April (not in a suite) and my friends saunter into the Retreat while I’m locked out lol, but I doubt it. I’ll ponder it while aboard, and post my thoughts during or after the cruise:)

[NantahalaCruiser]

But that is an issue, at least for me. They remodel the older ships and add more cabins, they carve out two dining rooms and four or five premium restaurants, and all that space comes out of what the rest of us would like to use. For example, on Millennium class ships they took about a third of the main dining room space away. But the passengers who are using it are not a third of the passengers, it’s a smaller number, using more space and more waiters per passenger. But the amount of space overall and the number of waiters can’t increase, since space on a ship is pretty fixed. So the main dining room becomes more crowded, with fewer waiters, sommeliers, etc. I don’t begrudge suite passengers their extra perks that they’ve paid for, I begrudge them the space and the staff - the extra shares of a finite resource - that they’ve taken from the rest of us.

I agree with the space takeaway. But the wait-staff is a different issue - not a fixed resource - Celebrity can hire as many as they need but chose to decrease the number of staff per customer in the MDR. They probably would have done so even if they had not carved out Blu and Luminae just as they did in cutting out assistant cabin stewards.

[Mike981]

I will add that I have experienced 'reverse snobbishness'. People trying to make themselves feel better by putting down those who have spent more on their vacation.

[Silkroad]

The hardest part with this level of service? Crashing back to earth when you leave.

 

Absolutely true. When DH and I returned from our last cruise, the first thing I missed was the lovely fresh pineapple in OVC. Later that day, after slogging through mountains of laundry and junk mail, we looked at one another and burst out laughing. We’d both carried our dishes to the sink and wandered off, as though someone would magically appear to wash them:')

[NantahalaCruiser]

I sometimes think of it differently - if they are paying so much of a premium for the suites but still share most activities, why not go on a luxury line?

I am not and most likely never will be a suite passenger, but my guess is that the same size suite cabin on a luxury line would come at a much higher cost. Perhaps frequent suite consumers can comment on this.

 

By the way, the fact that they are sharing most activities with non-suite passengers flies in the face of elitism.

[RocketMan275]

I agree with the space takeaway. But the wait-staff is a different issue - not a fixed resource - Celebrity can hire as many as they need but chose to decrease the number of staff per customer in the MDR. They probably would have done so even if they had not carved out Blu and Luminae just as they did in cutting out assistant cabin stewards.

Well, actually, wait staff is a fixed resource. While they can hire as many as they wish, they must provide on-board cabin space. They must provide seats in life rafts. Those and other factors limit the number of staff.

[jandlbudde]

Well, actually, wait staff is a fixed resource. While they can hire as many as they wish, they must provide on-board cabin space. They must provide seats in life rafts. Those and other factors limit the number of staff.

 

There should be lots of space since they eliminated the asst cabin steward position last yr ;)

 

Well not last YR... towards the end of 2016.

[NantahalaCruiser]

I can sort of see what you are getting at. When I have my slightly mathematical head on I think, OK so you buy a week in a standard approx 200 square foot type cabin you pay X amount. If you go for an approx 400 square foot cabin you should pay X (x 2) and for the best suites of 600 square feet or 1200 square feet you should pay for that space in the same way. But why should you also get extra perks and private lounges?? You already have all that extra room so why reduce the rest of the facilities for everyone??

 

But, I get it. It is the way it is. So I accept it.

Because every cruise line, including Celebrity uses yield management (tools that include customer segmentation) to maximize profits - it's pricing algorithms are not linear as you for some reason feel would be more equitable. Using your linear argument, if suite guests paid 3 times as much for a cabin that was 3 times as large, then for equity's sake they would also need to eat 3 times as much, go to 3 times as many shows and swim 3 times as often! In other words, the cost of all services are not proportional to cabin size.

[EeyoreFan1967]

I think the suggestion that everyone who does or is interested in booking a suite (at much additional cost to them) to obtain a little extra service and pampering is "elitist" is dangerous stereotyping. Just because someone wants a quiet cocktail and dinner and maybe an extra large balcony for some romance doesn't mean they're sitting there gloating with some "nyah nyah you can't come in" attitude. Are there some elitists in the world? Sure. But don't judge people you don't even know.

 

A few days ago I started a thread, you may have seen it, inquiring whether there are exclusive pools or decks for suite passengers, and I was assailed for having disdain for "the masses." Are you kidding me?! Do you know me?! Do you know how I live my life every day or how hard I work or what I do for "the masses?" Or that I'm one of the masses myself? Believe me when I tell you, nobody who knows me would ever dream of calling me elitist or accuse me of having disdain for the masses. If I told them this happened to me, they would laugh out loud. I want a little luxury on my vacation and I'm willing to pay for it, if I can swing it. I don't feel entitled to it, but I've earned some money and I have a right to spend it how I choose, without apology or judgment.

 

That said, I can get how people would be upset if their favorite ship was carved up and previously public areas were now off limits to non-suite guests. If I had a favorite lounge on a ship and I could no longer use it, that would rub me the wrong way. But I wouldn't blame the passengers who chose to pay for access to that area. Maybe there are some elitist snobs amongst them, but mostly I assume they're hard-working people like myself who want, and fortunately can afford, a different kind of vacation.

 

Eeyore

[ambrtonj]

I don't feel entitled to it, but I've earned some money and I have a right to spend it how I choose, without apology or judgment.

Eeyore

 

Love that line and completely agree with it.

[Toofarfromthesea]

Life is too short to spend it envying people for the things they have.

[GUT2407]

I guess you get what you pay for. Certainly doesn’t sit well with me as an Aussie. Also dont like the fact that they’ve used to push up the price of some locations.

 

Maybe allow you to add it for a cost to any cabin location.

[Ma Bell]

I guess you get what you pay for. Certainly doesn’t sit well with me as an Aussie. Also dont like the fact that they’ve used to push up the price of some locations.

 

Maybe allow you to add it for a cost to any cabin location.

Allow you to add what?

[lisiamc]

Luminae on M class ships is tiny. It's not even close to a third of the original dining room space. :)

 

I'm curious, how is this relevant to suite class onboard a Celebrity ship :-

 

"They remodel the older ships and add more cabins, they carve out two dining rooms and four or five premium restaurants".

 

It reads as if you're suggesting that four or five restaurants have been added to a ship at the detriment of pax.

 

Luminae plus Blu is what I was thinking of, but I might have been too generous in my estimate. Can we agree that it’s at least a quarter?

 

And the speciality restaurants are both a plus and a minus in that they are a nice change from the MDR if one is seeking that, but again, a scarce resource (waiters and space) is being used in a greater ratio to the passengers served.

 

I miss the larger amount of space between the tables that used to exist in the MDR, and the number of waiters, assistant waiters, sommeliers and bar staff that used to be available. If there was some magical way that the ships themselves could have been made bigger, and more staff added, then I wouldn’t mind the spaces reserved for suite and Aqua passengers. (I don’t begrudge Michael’s Club for suites - that was always an underused space anyway. It’s nice to see it serving a useful purpose.)

 

I miss having sommeliers who have a moment to help with wine selection and can actually bring the wine before we’re halfway though the main course. I miss having waiters who can take a minute to get to know the passengers and their preferences, or show the kids a magic trick.

[Georgia_Peaches]

First, let me say this is a great thread. Second, I applaud the civility of all those who have responded. Sometimes comments can get rather snarky. At any rate, to answer the question, I have no problem with the extra perks or secluded areas that come with a more expensive stateroom but I do have a problem with those who present themselves as better than the rest because they've chosen to spring for a suite. My DH and I almost always travel in a suite but we rarely use Michael's club and often opt for a specialty restaurant or MDR in lieu of Luminae. We have met some wonderful people while cruising and have never based that description on the class of travel our fellow cruisers have chosen. As for the nanny nanny boo boo travelers who feel superior because of the special suite only areas, well their the ones with the inferiority complex IMHO.

Christina

Edited February 19, 2018 by Georgia_Peaches

[Orator]

I meet many, many people in Suites in Michael's Club. Only met one or two who were snobs. Very rarely does anyone talk about their cabin. I haven't been in a Suite since Luminae and heard stories about some who resent Zeniths sharing their private lounge, but I've never experienced this behavior. People are people and labels often cloud thinking.

[MadManOfBethesda]

Trust me, I don't begrudge anyone their right to spend their money on whatever level of service they feel is worthwhile. I certainly do -- for me, a verandah is an absolute necessity.

 

The issue for me is exclusivity. For the areas in question, you're not just paying for the larger room; you're paying to get into a space that others can't. To get the secret password. That's the part that "bugs me".

 

For you, a verandah is an absolute necessity and you're willing to pay more for it. For me, not having to wait in lines is an absolute necessity, and that's why I'm paying for a suite. I don't want to wait in a line to board the ship. I don't want to wait in a line to enter the dining room (and then be squeezed into a table that is 4 inches apart from 2 other tables). I don't want to wait in a line to get on a tender to get ashore. I pay extra so that when I want to go ashore, I can just go to the Concierge and then be walked to the front of any line.

 

I wouldn't care if my sleeping accommodations were an inside cabin the size of a closet on the lowest deck; I'm paying for the extra personal services.

 

You're willing to pay extra for more cabin space and a balcony, but the additional amenities that come with a suite apparently aren't as important to you on a cost/benefit basis. I'm willing to pay more for those added amenities because they are of paramount importance to me.

 

There's no "nyah, nyah nyah" in my choice of accommodations and level of service, just as I'm sure that you're not "nyah, nyah, nyah-ing" at those passengers who choose the cheapest inside cabins and choose not to dine in the specialty restaurants that have been carved out of otherwise public space.