Will overtourism affect river cruising?

[notamermaid]

Three down, the fourth one to go?

 

Yesterday was one of the days that ended in me being rather thoughtful about town development and tourists. With annoyance still going round in my head about local politicians spending money on IMO overenthusiastic building projects, I came across this article on Deutsche Welle, yes, another city has joined in with the moaning Passau locals talking about the "bad" tourists: https://www.dw.com/en/cruising-for-a-bruising/av-48101349

 

So what can be done? Well, here is my advice to all politicians, marketing people and locals - be aware, tread with caution when thinking about tourism and perhaps with a twinkle in your eye but in earnest bear in mind my four command(ment)s for looking after your town.

One: you shall not market your town

Two: you shall not become a world heritage site

Three: you shall not be a film location

Four: you shall not build a (bigger) cruise or river cruise port

 

So back to my headline: Amsterdam has stopped marketing - one down, Passau is struggling immensely and the authorities are finally reacting or being pressured to react -  two down, Regensburg is now in the news and the town council has limited the number of river cruise ship moorings - three down, my fear is for Bamberg nearby. It is a river cruise port, a medieval town with narrow streets and tourist gathering hot spots and a UNESCO world heritage site! Now I can only sincerely hope a Chinese couple does not have a wedding proposal in the old town with 100 million watching live at home and Disney does not turn up...

 

My worries are linked with what happened to Hallstatt in Austria - saddening and to make matters worse, they had a huge fire in November. Believe it or not, the tourists still keep coming. The mayor is urging people to stay away: 

https://www.theguardian.com/film/shortcuts/2020/jan/06/let-it-go-why-the-mayor-of-hallstatt-is-telling-frozen-fans-to-stay-away

 

Nearby where I live there is an architectural cluster of buildings/landmark that I thought could be registered with these agencies that market film locations. I have decided not to pursue the idea. And reading about other towns' problems has redefined our petty quarrels here about how to improve our neighbourhood or not. I shall look forward to Chinese tourists being an exotic rare sight for years to come and believe the Viking coach I saw a few months ago to just having taken the wrong motorway exit.

 

In this day and age it seems to me that there is hardly a middle way - you either have hardly any tourists and struggle to keep the community going or you are swamped with the locals driven out of their homes...

 

But to end this on a good note - I look forward to the new season and if I ever meet a river cruise tourist I my street shall talk to him happily and ask about his ship - to run home afterwards and report about the chance meeting with great excitement.

 

notamermaid

 

[sharkster77]

On Viking's very popular 8 day Rhine Getaway cruise, Marksburg Castle tour has been replaced with Koblenz and Heidelberg has been replaced with Speyer.  Ironically, when we were docked in Speyer, (after we got back from Heidelberg) our tour director walked us into Speyer, describing it as a town untainted by tourism (his words, not mine).

 

Initially I thought this was done to reduce overlap with the 15 day Grand European Tour (AMS--BUD), which also stops at Marksburg and Heidelberg.  These ovetourism stories now have me wondering......

[pinotlover]

No problems listed here a major stock market correction or broad based recession won’t quickly cure. Think the aftermath of the 2008 meltdown! 
 

It’s not a question of if another one will happen, they always have, only a matter of when. I hope those towns and villages have their debt levels under control when it occurs!

 

To much of a good thing can be a bad thing. To little of a good thing can be even worse! Funny how tourism can be that way! If one wanted to see the extreme, they should have visited Egypt a few years back! Walking through all those multiple permanently rafted river boats to get to the docks was interesting! In Europe, just wait until those permanently rafted river boats start renting cabins by the night ,competing with the local hotels, to generate cash flow for debt service!

Edited January 18, 2020 by pinotlover

[notamermaid]

17 minutes ago, sharkster77 said:

On Viking's very popular 8 day Rhine Getaway cruise, Marksburg Castle tour has been replaced with Koblenz and Heidelberg has been replaced with Speyer.  Ironically, when we were docked in Speyer, (after we got back from Heidelberg) our tour director walked us into Speyer, describing it as a town untainted by tourism (his words, not mine).

 

Initially I thought this was done to reduce overlap with the 15 day Grand European Tour (AMS--BUD), which also stops at Marksburg and Heidelberg.  These ovetourism stories now have me wondering......

I am not quite sure what you mean as Marksburg castle is still in the itinerary. Koblenz appears to have more of an emphasis with Ehrenbreitstein being offered now but Marksburg is still an included excursion. At Speyer, the actual town seems indeed to be given more room, i.e. time in the itinerary now, and Heidelberg is just an optional excursion. Speyer untainted by tourism - hmm, not sure about that one, but it is not yet overrun by herds of tourists, to that I would agree.

 

Talking of Viking, last year in Autumn a river cruiser reported of being docked in the industrial/winter harbour at Niehl outside of Cologne. The passengers were not happy... It was supposed to be due to low water levels. Many other river cruise ship were docked in the city but with the river being low it could have been that there were too few accessible docking spaces. Quite remarkable when you think that Cologne has more than eight alone for river cruise ships (and some of those are okay for double docking). But then, Viking is so omnipresent of the Rhine now that they dock in Cologne with three of their ships on some days in the season, so Cologne might reach its limits... Another reason for me not sail with Viking, the German river cruise ships dock in Deutz on the other side of the river at least - when the centre is full - which is just a short tram ride from the city centre.

 

notamermaid

 

[sharkster77]

@notamermaid, When I looked at 2020 itineraries for the Rhine Getaway, it did not resemble our October 2019 trip.  Yes, Marksburg may be there, must be an optional ($) excursion, as Koblenz is listed as the "included" one.  Last fall they were flipped--Marksburg was included and Koblenz could replace Marksburg for those who needed flatter walking surfaces, for a fee.

 

Same with Heidelberg---Speyer is "included", Heidelberg now includes lunch with students, optional for a fee, I am sure.  We were offered a free walk into Speyer at 4:30 PM with the cruise director, just to get a taste of Speyer before returning for dinner.

 

Speyer "untainted by overtourism" was the cruise director's words, not mine.

 

Assuming mostly everyone (~190) does the included tour, and a busload (~30-40) do an optional, that would swing the numbers in a give port a little bit, yes?

Edited January 18, 2020 by sharkster77

[notamermaid]

Certainly a change there with Viking, I understand. When I was up at the Marksburg a few months ago I was wondering how they get all the coaches up there and park them. Little space in the cars' car park, not sure where the coaches went.

 

16 minutes ago, sharkster77 said:

Speyer "untainted by overtourism" was the cruise director's words, not mine.

I got that. And compared to Heidelberg or Rüdesheim he is probably right.

 

17 minutes ago, sharkster77 said:

Assuming mostly everyone (~190) does the included tour, and a busload (~30-40) do an optional, that would swing the numbers in a give port a little bit, yes?

Fair point. In Rüdesheim with its population of just under 10.000 it would certainly make a difference and I am sure in Koblenz the locals would also prefer river cruisers to go on the included fortress tour a bit more. Heidelberg can also profit in reduced stress levels from fewer coaches.

 

Back to Viking: they are diversifying on the Rhine in that they will dock in Wesel from this year. But more on that in another thread.

 

notamermaid

 

[sharkster77]

@notamermaid,   At Marksburg, the coaches only took us so far--we were forewarned that the last maybe 1/4 mile (?) or so would be on foot, up switchbacks--for those who knew this was too strenuous I would imagine would be encouraged to take the optional walking tour tof Koblenz or ride the gondola up to Ehrenbreitstein fortress.

 

My wife and I were amazed how overly crowded Heidelberg Castle was, for the middle of October.  I think that was the only place that felt really mobbed--only place where I temporarily followed the wrong red Viking "lolipop" paddle for a few minutes--dodged a bullet there!

 

BTW, since we are "conversing" I'd like to thank you for all you do, keeping watch regarding water levels for us "cousins across the pond"!   When you re-assured us that levels were good last October, that was all we needed to hear--no more worries!

Edited January 18, 2020 by sharkster77

[notamermaid]

On 1/18/2020 at 8:21 PM, sharkster77 said:

At Marksburg, the coaches only took us so far--we were forewarned that the last maybe 1/4 mile (?) or so would be on foot, up switchbacks--for those who knew this was too strenuous I would imagine would be encouraged to take the optional walking tour tof Koblenz or ride the gondola up to Ehrenbreitstein fortress.

I have had a look at the switchbacks on the map, I now remember the attendant at the car park saying to us that it was a bit of a walk. On that day we decided not to park and walk to the castle as it had started raining heavily. We just left.

 

On 1/18/2020 at 8:21 PM, sharkster77 said:

BTW, since we are "conversing" I'd like to thank you for all you do, keeping watch regarding water levels for us "cousins across the pond"!   When you re-assured us that levels were good last October, that was all we needed to hear--no more worries!

Thank you. I am glad it has been helpful to you.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

Oh my, what a changed world this is since I last posted in this thread. And not for the better. We have gone in the most brutal fashion (apart from war) from overtourism to undertourism - yes, the word exists, I have read it recently.

 

With the crowds gone and the streets empty, there has been time to think - and breathe deeply. The troubled places like Barcelona, Amsterdam, Paris and Hallstatt, like many others, have been able to take stock. Time for a rethink. Amsterdam had been doing that already, but have decided to do more and further reorganize and change tourism in the town. Here is the report: https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-a-fresh-start-for-amsterdam-tourism/a-53855534

 

What will it mean for river cruisers, a minority group of tourists, but easily controllable in numbers?

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

Over a year has passed and places plagued by overtourism have had time think and act. Yes, Amsterdam is serious about this: https://nltimes.nl/2021/07/12/amsterdam-limit-tourism-20-million-overnight-stays-per-year

 

I wonder how they want to monitor this - month on month, or through pre-bookings?

 

But more importantly: What will this curb mean for river cruising? Will there be fewer itineraries with an additional day in Amsterdam? Fewer pre-cruise stays? Will staying at the airport hotel count as a hotel in Amsterdam? Will we even see river cruises end in Utrecht? Or Arnhem? Or Rotterdam - which admittedly used to be the real end of a Rhine journey all those years ago?

 

We will find out about any effects next year, I should think.

 

notamermaid

 

[Wings55]

It's an interesting discussion. Too many tourists take away from the charm of a city and mean additional irritation for the residents. Too few means not enough income to support the economy as well as museum budgets etc. 

Meanwhile the cruise lines are building more and more river ships and guests complain about ships 'rafting' side by side. 

Paul 🤷‍♂️

[Roz]

What I have read is the real problem in Amsterdam is the number of groups of young people, especially bachelor parties, that come to the city from other European countries for the weekend to drink, smoke weed, frequent the red light district, etc.  

 

I would hope that river and ocean cruisers who come to Amsterdam for a few days pre-cruise to take in the Rijksmuseum, Anne Frank House, do a canal cruise, etc. aren't too disruptive to the residents and make a positive monetary contribution.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Roz

[mlbcruiser]

Just sn added note in reference to Roz’s post....

 

Our Rhine cruise ended in Amsterdam in late May of 2019. There were lots and lots of bachelor party groups that we noticed all around a popular large square filled with restaurants etc. (Actually It was kind of fun to see them because apparently the custom is for the groom to dress up in full, silly costumes.  None of them were super unruly but at times some did het loud. it was only afternoon and early evening when we were in that area.) 

 

I agree that visiting Anne Frank’s house is a must when in Amsterdam. However, be SURE to reserve in advance! We did.  but I overheard quite a number of people were very disappointed to find that the concierge on our ship could do nothing for them. At our final evening dinner on the ship, I spoke to several people who were upset because they were unable to get in that day we were docked in Amsterdam and had not realized they should have planned ahead.

 

[pinotlover]

Here’s the larger problem. River cruise people that haul back to the ship, between tours to eat and drink. Same goes with many ocean cruisers. Those bachelor parties are supporting the local economy big time. All the tight wad cruisers eating lunch and dinner aboard ship, not so much.

 

Who do think the local merchants would rather get rid of: (1) Old foggies  rushing back to the ship for lunch , to have drinks, and play Trivia; or (2) people that actually buy meals, have drinks, and participate ( other than tourist shops) in the economy?

 

Oh! But the Ship’s Buffet! 🙄

 

I continue to be amazed at the number of cruisers that never get off the ships at various ports, or if they do, it’s only for a quick walk around. They then expect to be prioritized above tourist that come to spend money??? 😂😂

[Host Jazzbeau]

1 hour ago, pinotlover said:

Here’s the larger problem. River cruise people that haul back to the ship, between tours to eat and drink. Same goes with many ocean cruisers. Those bachelor parties are supporting the local economy big time. All the tight wad cruisers eating lunch and dinner aboard ship, not so much.

 

Who do think the local merchants would rather get rid of: (1) Old foggies  rushing back to the ship for lunch , to have drinks, and play Trivia; or (2) people that actually buy meals, have drinks, and participate ( other than tourist shops) in the economy?

 

Oh! But the Ship’s Buffet! 🙄

 

I continue to be amazed at the number of cruisers that never get off the ships at various ports, or if they do, it’s only for a quick walk around. They then expect to be prioritized above tourist that come to spend money??? 😂😂

Of course the municipalities can ensure that cruises contribute to the local economy by charging sufficient docking fees – as Amsterdam is doing.

[Canal archive]

The most favoured tourist cities are in a cleft stick, they are asked to keep up with the latest climate change directives, they need to be ‘all things to all men’ their visitors don’t want to be overwhelmed. Do they put up their fees for mooring, parking or individuals per visit which could potentially price them out of the market or do they try to go softly softly. Amsterdam for instance does it shout from the rooftops that for example to visit the Anne Frank house you have to book a ticket no they don’t you have to discover for yourself. Now this is only an example but it all comes down to ‘communication, communication, communication. Not all tourists are cut from the same cloth, some investigate to the nth degree and some go with the flow if the later most don’t complain but some do. We are all human! If some want to stay on the boat they payed so they can stay for whatever reason. 
I live very close to the City of Bath would I visit in the summer regardless of the shops, no I wouldn’t the tourists are everywhere (even in these COVID times).

[tfred]

this is a link for the study that the US State of Maine did for cruise ship stops.  They are missing the money, but it is a trade off of income versus quality of life and expenses due to extra volume of tourists.  In many ways it resembles some Rhine river stops in size, look and feel.  

 

https://motpartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Survey-of-Cruise-Visitors-to-Maine-Behavior-Attitudes-and-Spending-of-Passengers-and-Crew-August-2019.pdf

 

The average pax spends about $60 in port.  Docking fees seem to be about $2 million/year.  Just using existing docks are one thing, but the decision is when to expand or update the docks.  Big money and then  it can change the look and feel of the town.  Rudesheim today is not the Rudesheim of 20 years ago

[notamermaid]

17 hours ago, pinotlover said:

Who do think the local merchants would rather get rid of: (1) Old foggies  rushing back to the ship for lunch , to have drinks, and play Trivia; or (2) people that actually buy meals, have drinks, and participate ( other than tourist shops) in the economy?

A valid point and question. At first "instinct" you would think (1), but when you look closer it is a mixed response and also depends on which town you are talking about. For many a good mix of (1) and (2) is very much welcome and manageable, as like jazzbeau pointed out this is also how money comes in:

 

15 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

Of course the municipalities can ensure that cruises contribute to the local economy by charging sufficient docking fees – as Amsterdam is doing.

 

Although this goes to municipalities (if the docking is not a private pier) and is "lost" for trade/shops. Another point to consider is this: river cruise passengers need often local coaches, sometimes taxis and need several tour guides that would otherwise have to rely on day trippers and coach tours, which can but need not be a less reliable source of income. River cruise ships may also source food and drink regionally, but that varies from region to region. Still, it can be a good income for some businesses. The money does not all come from passengers directly.

 

In river cruising we have the perhaps unusual case that depending on where ships dock in a single itinerary - village, town, city - the "competing" other tourists are so varied in numbers and scenarios. A village of 500 people may be overrun by two river cruise ships and have few day trippers that cause problems. Others may manage a good balance. Cologne for example is massive and could do without river cruise ships and concentrate on other tourist sectors but the overall river cruising industry generates good money, in a city of one million the balance is good. IMO it works. Amsterdam is another case as it is also an embarkation port but on top of that an ocean cruise port and favoured (compared to Cologne) by international drinking parties. There the system is out of balance IMO. As a side note: Düsseldorf had to ban hen parties form the old town as that was getting out of control.

 

By the way, booking the Anne Frank House in advance I had read about here on CC a couple of years ago and have since noticed other sights in Europe preferring online booking or using online booking exclusively. The pandemic has increased this I think. It will be the way to go for many places around the world I think.

 

There have been studies that show how much money the average river cruise passenger spends in a port and it is not much, but it is the direct money from purse to shop or restaurant that they looked at. The figure for a day tripper is higher. Still, some ports do see good revenue coming from river cruise ships and are happy to invest in updating or building new landing stages. Directly springing to mind (last five years) are on the Rhine: Mainz, Neuwied, Duisburg and Wesel. On the Danube: Straubing and Vilshofen. On the Weser: Bremerhaven.

 

notamermaid

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by notamermaid
grammar

[notamermaid]

tfred, thanks for the link. It is good to have such studies. It has recently been done for tourism in the North of Germany (not river cruising, but tourists in general). In these times of cheap travel it is essential to do so in my opinion. And check instagram regularly...

 

34 minutes ago, tfred said:

Rudesheim today is not the Rudesheim of 20 years ago

Yup, they built another landing stage not that long ago. So should also be in my list I posted above. For me Rüdesheim would "have fallen" this year, if it had not been for the pandemic. The balance was at tipping point I felt in 2019. That is just my opinion, but I admit I advise people not to go to Rüdesheim at the weekend. I work in tourism marketing, but you have to be honest with folks.

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

19 hours ago, Wings55 said:

Meanwhile the cruise lines are building more and more river ships and guests complain about ships 'rafting' side by side. 

Those complaints have increased. More ships indeed. River cruise companies list rafting in the fine print, some more prominent than others. It can be missed, especially before booking. It is normal to some (I expected it, but was a bit surprised of the extent at Vienna), it is okay for many, a nuisance for some river cruisers.

 

According to IG River Cruise, 18 new ships sailed the rivers in 2019, in 2018 it was 10 new ships (details of rivers where deployed are not given).

 

notamermaid

 

[sharkster77]

The rowdy bachelor and bachelorette parties certainly require more expenditure on police than us boring old cruisers!  They certainly save money at the public safety end.

[gnome12]

1 hour ago, notamermaid said:

By the way, booking the Anne Frank House in advance I had read about here on CC a couple of years ago and have since noticed other sights in Europe preferring online booking or using online booking exclusively. The pandemic has increased this I think. It will be the way to go for many places around the world I think.

While having to pre-book is becoming more prevalent, and might continue in the future in order to spread out visits, there aren't too many places where you have to book as soon as the tickets go on sale or be out of luck. The issue with the Anne Frank house is a combination of the size of the house, and the interest in it.

[pinotlover]

Haven’t been to Rudesheim for a few years, but last time there ( non cruise), they were talking about banning the buses in the City Center. That alone could help many towns. Make them walk in and out, thus stopping all the buses from loading and unloading causing congestion.

 

Hermitage has a relatively small City Center with a town square. I was shocked, a few years back on a Viking cruise, when we got on and off the bus 3 times just going around the square! Had we walked the entire thing, it wouldn’t have been much more than a half K! Nope, the buses had to stop, block traffic, drive a couple hundred meters, stop, block traffic again, etc. Actually the distance from the boat to Center was short and no buses should have been required. 
 

I believe there are many areas where the towns could tighten up some rules to help the situation.

[notamermaid]

2 hours ago, gnome12 said:

The issue with the Anne Frank house is a combination of the size of the house, and the interest in it.

I understand. From what I have seen online, the house is indeed small (never been to Amsterdam) and the interest far exceeds what a normal dwelling can take. Huge museums I doubt will do more than just control traffic on a small scale, but I can see castles, private institutions and galleries doing much or mostly online. I already know of a London museum having gone exclusive online advance booking. Time slot booking (also by phone) is also a popular procedure now to control the number of visitors in some places. I have had to do that a few times before Covid and of course since then.

 

It could be awkward for river cruisers when they go ahead and book a time slot, only to miss it due to the ship being delayed.

 

notamermaid

 

[Canal archive]

What an opening for cruise companies, museum evening or late afternoon or early morning visits with specialist tour guides. Well don’t get me started can you imagine a personal visit to the Rijks museum oh the list goes on and on.

Our Giverney visit was early before anyone else - sheer magic.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Canal archive