Confirmed! Prinsendam has been sold! (4 threads merged)

[AtlantaCruiser72]

The Seabourn vessels are too low density to be operated profitably by HAL. They would need double the number of passengers than those ships currently carry to fit into the HAL brand from a pricing standpoint.

 

I think more likely we will see Carnival Corp develop and build a common 6-800 passenger vessel platform to spread across the fleets of Princess, P&O and HAL (with 1-3 vessels per brand) before a Seabourn vessel is transferred to HAL.

[bUU]

The Seabourn vessels are too low density to be operated profitably by HAL. They would need double the number of passengers than those ships currently carry to fit into the HAL brand from a pricing standpoint.

To be clear, P'dam is profitable; the problem is that it is an inefficient use of capital. The best demonstration of this involves bond investing: You have $5000 to invest. You could put it in a bond fund. That bond fund has a $5000 minimum deposit, and has been returning a consistent 10% for years (aka, the K'dam bond fund). Or you consider getting into a special bond issue that a broker offers to you (aka, the P'dam bond). It offers to return 11%, but the broker only has $500 left in the bond issue to offer you. It may be paradoxical, but for most people the smaller, larger investment is better than the smaller, higher-return investment.

 

The demonstration goes deeper than that. Let's say you have a choice between the K'dam bond fund and a ten separate $500 bonds from ten separate bond issuers (just like the P'dam bond), and ten separate brokers, with no way to consolidate the holdings together - they have to be managed separately (i.e., each ship has to be operated separately). Even then, for most corporations, the K'dam is better, because of the overhead involved in separately managing smaller operations. Essentially, for the business, the K'dam is the ten P'dam investments, consolidated together, with a little bit of extra overhead - the cost of managing the small investments.

 

Generally, it is better for large corporations to sell off small operations that represent challenges distinct from the rest of their business, and focus on what's really best for their owners. My former employer had a very, very successful medical device business, along with its more industrial businesses - a business unit that was consistently more profitable than the rest of the company. Electronics and mechanical engineering and manufacturing is electronics and mechanical engineering and manufacturing - right? So what should it matter? It did. The medical device business unit required a disproportionate amount of attention by the supervisory board and executive management, despite how little it contributed to EBIT and therefore EPS. The best decision for the corporation was to spin-off the smaller business.

 

Regardless, if there is a market for a P'dam-like experience on a Seabourn ship, the CCL can offer it on Seabourn, at Seabourn prices

[Vict0riann]

I don't think Prinsendam is scooter-friendly at the best of times. With only 4 small, slow, elevators (two at each end) if a person with a scooter wants to get on one, they have to go in front ways, and back out. Takes time. No one else can get on, unless they are already on, and then they can't get out, unless the scooter gets off first. Two years ago on Prinsendam someone with a rollator, I guess it is called, a fancy walker with wheels and seat, said it frequently took her 15 minutes to get an elevator, because no one would let her on. Very frustrating.

[mrscopper]

What about the Veendam? Is it being sold too?:rolleyes:

[wander]

On the WC 2018 when Orlando was onboard (March, along with some other HAL Main office folks), we were told that the Prinsendam had NOT been sold yet, although available. We were also told that when/if a sale was finalized they (HAL) would announce it. We shall see.

 

Regarding the Madam, I am not so clear on this but my understanding from his talk was that there were some design changes made to it so that can be used for their venture into some more exploration type cruises. As I said, I am a bit fuzzy on this latter information. Perhaps someone else who heard Orlando speak on the WC can add to this.

[catl331]

What about the Veendam? Is it being sold too?:rolleyes:

Eventually Veendam will go. A likely time IMO would be about when the third Pinnacle class ship sails in 2021.

[RuthC]

I don't think Prinsendam is scooter-friendly at the best of times. With only 4 small, slow, elevators (two at each end) if a person with a scooter wants to get on one, they have to go in front ways, and back out. Takes time. No one else can get on, unless they are already on, and then they can't get out, unless the scooter gets off first. Two years ago on Prinsendam someone with a rollator, I guess it is called, a fancy walker with wheels and seat, said it frequently took her 15 minutes to get an elevator, because no one would let her on. Very frustrating.

I've not used a scooter on the Prinsendam, but did use a rollator. I never had a problem getting on an elevator with that, and I used both the forward, and more often the aft (smaller) elevators.

I did speak with someone who was traveling with someone using a scooter, and she (who used the forward elevators more often) reported there were no problems using it.

 

I will say I always enter the elevator facing forward, and back out when using a scooter. Obviously, a rollator takes up less room and can be turned around once in the elevator.

[rkacruiser]

The Seabourn vessels are too low density to be operated profitably by HAL. They would need double the number of passengers than those ships currently carry to fit into the HAL brand from a pricing standpoint.

 

Good point and I have thought the same thing. Solutions: add a deck, which would require a major alteration of superstructure I suppose. Or, split the ship and add another section as has been done with other ships, most recently with a Silverseas vessel.

[Sir PMP]

Never - and I have no interest in doing so given how its most passionate fans describe it.

 

If you think that matters, then (paradoxically) you aren't paying attention to the complaints that you and other have been posting here for years.

 

And if you think your opinion about that will trump Holland America's "value engineering" (a term that the cruise line was recently quoted as using in reference to some entertainment changes), then I suspect you'll be disappointed.

 

Meanwhile, the cruise line can be considering how it will position the sale of P'dam, when that finally occurs. What I can guarantee you is that they will not say, "We are getting rid of P'dam and not doing anything to satisfy any of what P'dam offered. If you liked P'dam then go away."

 

They just won't say that, even though it is very likely how P'dam's most passionate fans will want to describe it.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

 

Lots of empty statements here!!

[rkacruiser]

I was talking to someone who is knowledgeable on the subject recently, and the fate of the Prinsendam is sealed. She will be leaving the fleet when her previously released itineraries are complete. I understand she will likely be staying in the family (ie another Carnival Corp company). As with all other rumors, this one is only as accurate as the person who told me, but at least they were a HAL employee.

 

I do not doubt the accuracy of your report from an employee of HAL. But, transferring the Prinsendam, with the number of miles under her keel, to another CCL Brand? Seems unlikely to me because in which company would she fit? Why would that company's maintenance expenses for her be any less than HAL's?

 

A sell to C&MV or Phoenix Reisen, or some other such firm, seems more likely in my opinion.

[Sir PMP]

To be clear, P'dam is profitable; the problem is that it is an inefficient use of capital. The best demonstration of this involves bond investing: You have $5000 to invest. You could put it in a bond fund. That bond fund has a $5000 minimum deposit, and has been returning a consistent 10% for years (aka, the K'dam bond fund). Or you consider getting into a special bond issue that a broker offers to you (aka, the P'dam bond). It offers to return 11%, but the broker only has $500 left in the bond issue to offer you. It may be paradoxical, but for most people the smaller, larger investment is better than the smaller, higher-return investment.

 

The demonstration goes deeper than that. Let's say you have a choice between the K'dam bond fund and a ten separate $500 bonds from ten separate bond issuers (just like the P'dam bond), and ten separate brokers, with no way to consolidate the holdings together - they have to be managed separately (i.e., each ship has to be operated separately). Even then, for most corporations, the K'dam is better, because of the overhead involved in separately managing smaller operations. Essentially, for the business, the K'dam is the ten P'dam investments, consolidated together, with a little bit of extra overhead - the cost of managing the small investments.

 

Generally, it is better for large corporations to sell off small operations that represent challenges distinct from the rest of their business, and focus on what's really best for their owners. My former employer had a very, very successful medical device business, along with its more industrial businesses - a business unit that was consistently more profitable than the rest of the company. Electronics and mechanical engineering and manufacturing is electronics and mechanical engineering and manufacturing - right? So what should it matter? It did. The medical device business unit required a disproportionate amount of attention by the supervisory board and executive management, despite how little it contributed to EBIT and therefore EPS. The best decision for the corporation was to spin-off the smaller business.

 

Regardless, if there is a market for a P'dam-like experience on a Seabourn ship, the CCL can offer it on Seabourn, at Seabourn prices

 

Another empty statement, why is Viking building 16 more small size ships...

[Storylady]

On the WC 2018 when Orlando was onboard (March, along with some other HAL Main office folks), we were told that the Prinsendam had NOT been sold yet, although available. We were also told that when/if a sale was finalized they (HAL) would announce it. We shall see.

 

Regarding the Madam, I am not so clear on this but my understanding from his talk was that there were some design changes made to it so that can be used for their venture into some more exploration type cruises. As I said, I am a bit fuzzy on this latter information. Perhaps someone else who heard Orlando speak on the WC can add to this.

Maasdam Cruises from September in have finally been released. Wish I could say the same about the Prinsendam.

[bUU]

Lots of empty statements here!!

It's so weird to have a stalker posting freaky nonsense like this.

 

We get it. You don't like that cruise lines are a business. Get over it.

 

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[bUU]

Another empty statement...

More freaky nonsense.

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[taxmantoo]

It's so weird to have a stalker posting freaky nonsense like this.

 

We get it. You don't like that cruise lines are a business. Get over it.

 

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

I guess some people just have a natural born talent for attracting stalkers ;p

[AtlantaCruiser72]

I am no business major, or financial whiz, but here's how I see the picture for the cruise industry:

 

1) Older smaller ships (like the Prinsendam) are leaving the fleets of mainstream cruise lines. Once they leave they are mostly going to niche operators unassociated with the big players in the industry.

 

2) Corporations like Carnival, Royal Caribbean and NCL have no interest in developing newbuild programs for their mainstream lines that replicate the types/sizes of vessels they are disposing of. They are instead focused on larger, more economical newbuilds for their mainstream brands and building the smaller ships for their Ultra Premium and Luxury brands where the lower passenger numbers can be offset by significantly higher fares.

 

3) New entrants into Ocean Cruising, Like Viking, are siphoning a distinct passenger profile away from lines like Holland America, Princess, Celebrity, etc and toeing up head to head with brands such as Oceania and Azamara.

 

4) If a corportation like Carnival, Royal or NCL wanted to build and operate smaller ships for their mainstream and premium brands like Princess, Holland, P&O, Celebrity, Royal, NCL, Carnival, Costa, etc, they would already have the vessels under construction. They fact that outside of the Celebrity Flora (Galapagos fleet) they have not done so speaks volumes. I think the big players are content to let the mid/small ship market be part of their Ultra Premium and Luxury Brands in the future, and are counting on the fact that attrition of those clients who prefer smaller ships and their unique itineraries will either go to other brands in the corporation or be replaced with a new consumer demographic on their new, larger, more economical ships that help bolster overall profitability.

[JB&JLG74]

******** Anyone who Viking is "taking" from Holland America didn't really belong on a cruise line with the mid-grade price-point, and in the CCL scheme of things should have been on Seabourn anyway.

 

This Prinsendam fan prefers Viking (sailed on the Viking Sky to see what Viking is like) to Seabourn. I don't care for the passengers who sail on Seabourn. Guess I just have a mid-grade mindset regardless of the price point.

[bUU]

I guess some people just have a natural born talent for attracting stalkers ;p

It seems to afflict those piercing the wishful thinking of those who don't like that the industry has changed over time.

 

I am no business major, or financial whiz, but here's how I see the picture for the cruise industry:

 

1) Older smaller ships (like the Prinsendam) are leaving the fleets of mainstream cruise lines. Once they leave they are mostly going to niche operators unassociated with the big players in the industry.

 

2) Corporations like Carnival, Royal Caribbean and NCL have no interest in developing newbuild programs for their mainstream lines that replicate the types/sizes of vessels they are disposing of. They are instead focused on larger, more economical newbuilds for their mainstream brands and building the smaller ships for their Ultra Premium and Luxury brands where the lower passenger numbers can be offset by significantly higher fares.

 

3) New entrants into Ocean Cruising, Like Viking, are siphoning a distinct passenger profile away from lines like Holland America, Princess, Celebrity, etc and toeing up head to head with brands such as Oceania and Azamara.

 

4) If a corportation like Carnival, Royal or NCL wanted to build and operate smaller ships for their mainstream and premium brands like Princess, Holland, P&O, Celebrity, Royal, NCL, Carnival, Costa, etc, they would already have the vessels under construction. They fact that outside of the Celebrity Flora (Galapagos fleet) they have not done so speaks volumes. I think the big players are content to let the mid/small ship market be part of their Ultra Premium and Luxury Brands in the future, and are counting on the fact that attrition of those clients who prefer smaller ships and their unique itineraries will either go to other brands in the corporation or be replaced with a new consumer demographic on their new, larger, more economical ships that help bolster overall profitability.

For someone who professes a lack of expertise, you've put your finger on the pulse of what's going on very well.

 

This Prinsendam fan prefers Viking (sailed on the Viking Sky to see what Viking is like) to Seabourn.

And I'm sure there are Seabourn fans out there as well. How well CCL is serving the luxury market is another matter entirely, but Seabourn is one way they're aiming to do that - not Holland America.

[*Miss G*]

This Prinsendam fan prefers Viking (sailed on the Viking Sky to see what Viking is like) to Seabourn. I don't care for the passengers who sail on Seabourn. Guess I just have a mid-grade mindset regardless of the price point.

 

What don't you care about them?

[cbr663]

...

4) If a corportation like Carnival, Royal or NCL wanted to build and operate smaller ships for their mainstream and premium brands like Princess, Holland, P&O, Celebrity, Royal, NCL, Carnival, Costa, etc, they would already have the vessels under construction. They fact that outside of the Celebrity Flora (Galapagos fleet) they have not done so speaks volumes. ..

 

This sums it all up perfectly.

 

Saying a ship is profitable is saying nothing at all. All it means is that your revenues exceed your expenses. The question is, "Is it profitable enough?" And clearly, the P'dam isn't else a replacement would be on order.

 

HAL has made it very clear where it's future is - every class of ship is getting larger than the previous class.

[JB&JLG74]

What don't you care about them?

Those who sail on "The Yachts of Seaborne" appear to be the Yacht/Country Club crowd. Just my impression and it may just be those who I encountered, but that was my experience.

 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Forums mobile app

[bUU]

HAL has made it very clear where it's future is - every class of ship is getting larger than the previous class.

Precisely, and implying Holland America is making a mistake because it isn't doing what some other, smaller, higher-priced, non-mainstream cruise line is doing is silly.

 

 

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

[Sir PMP]

Precisely, and implying Holland America is making a mistake because it isn't doing what some other, smaller, higher-priced, non-mainstream cruise line is doing is silly.

 

 

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

 

Well, they're making a big mistake..

[shrimp56]

Well, they're making a big mistake..

Agreed. I'm just praying that the R Class remains for the rest of my cruising years.

[RuthC]

Agreed. I'm just praying that the R Class remains for the rest of my cruising years.

Me, too. I'll add the Maasdam to that short list.