Tipping

[kazu]

56 minutes ago, DocJohnB said:

Not really Jacqui.

 

While I have been around C/C boards long enough to know (or understand) that lists are prepared for staff of those who have and who have not removed "gratuities", I have never actually seen such a list either accidentally or otherwise.  Nor, have I ever been privy to any crew member's contract to see what it says in regards to this subject (nor, for that fact, do I want to).

 

I just don't feel there is any realistic way for a supervisor (an anybody else) ascertaining which monies in a steward(ess)'s pocket came from a person who has withdrawn their HSC and which came from an "extra gratuity".

 

I have been cruising since 1993 (on most of the mass market lines) and have extended gratuities under both the old system and the newer system.  I have NEVER withdrawn from the HSC and and have NEVER NOT extended additional gratuities (as warranted).   I just have never gotten the "warm, fuzzy" that others have that the HSC in the best interest of "all" the crew.

 

Each to their own, John.

 

the link for the contracts have been posted here when people questioned if the staff get all the HSC (they do) and what happens if the HSC is withdrawn.

 

there are lots of people to "see" envelopes being passed and there is a Master List in every steward's work room, the MDR etc.  You don't have to see the list to know it exists, but it certainly does as Randy has stated.

 

No one is going to risk their job for the sake of a few $ .

I was simply stating the facts and I have cruised under both systems too.  I started in 1987.  Even then with the "tipping not required" I got a good explanation from my TA that while it wasn't "required" it was good to do and the suggested amounts.

 

I've seen the look on the concierge's face when someone comes in and asks her to remove the HSC from their bill "as they take care of their people".  I've seen the look at the front desk and looks on crew faces.  The HSC means a lot to them.  I suspect the lack of warm and fuzzy is due to those that take it away.  JMO though.

 

We can certainly agree to disagree 😉 

 

 

[DocJohnB]

10 minutes ago, kazu said:

We can certainly agree to disagree 😉 

I agree with you that we can agree to disagree.  It would certainly be a boring world if we, on occasion, didn't.  Don't you agree? 

[RocketMan275]

30 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

Good point, recently my wife and I ate at a 5 star restaurant in Galveston Texas. Our bill for the two of us was $250, the service was exemplary and the food was out of this world. Dinner was about 2 hours long and my tip was $60. So for those two hours our waiter made $30 per hour. Times that by the 4 or 5 tables that our server worked and do you think he would be happy with a guaranteed $15 an hour from his employer? 

Excellent point.  But that only proves that those who want to remove the tips because of a desire to force the cruise lines to pay a 'living wage' aren't doing the crew any favors.

 

Besides if anyone thinks the crew is 'overpaid' they can always seek employment as a room steward or waiter on a cruise ship.  I'm sure they'll enjoy dealing with the 'public' as much as the current crew does.

Edited October 21, 2018 by RocketMan275

[ChinaShrek]

I must have missed this thread!  I have decided that with the new CC I am going to post my opposition to tipping whenever I see someone ask about.  Both sides need to be aired on the issue.  Most of the above posters, support tipping.  I propose you reconsider tipping for the following reasons:

 

1.  You are basically subsidizing large, wealthy corporations.  They can afford to pay their workers more.

2.  Withhold all or part of the suggested gratuity if you receive poor service.  This is obvious.

3.  No one forced them to work.  They are there by choice.

4.  If they receive cash tips, they probably aren't paying taxes on it.  That means the rest of society is supporting them.

5.  Who actually should be tipped?  Why should stewards and waiters receive tips but not the people who dance on the stage?  Perhaps, we should tip everyone who has a job?

6.  It promotes American culture to the rest of the world and assumes our way is the best.

7.  The gratuities are advertised as voluntary, hold them to it!

[RuthC]

1 hour ago, ChinaShrek said:

I have decided that with the new CC I am going to post my opposition to tipping whenever I see someone ask about. 

Oh, goodie. Something for everyone to look forward to.

[POA1]

1 hour ago, RuthC said:

Oh, goodie. Something for everyone to look forward to.

On the plus side, it'll give us a nice way to test out the new Ignore User features. 

[kazu]

2 hours ago, RuthC said:

Oh, goodie. Something for everyone to look forward to.

 

Yup, another person that doesn't know the facts.  China Shrek is revealing all too much.

 

Crew members don't pay taxes in the US  they pay them in their own country. Not our circus - not our monkeys.

 

Actually, I did pay taxes on my tips years ago - you just declare them.  The Government isn't stupid. 😉 

 

I'm quoting you as I don't want to give China Shrek the benefit of a post. 😉 

 

[ChinaShrek]

23 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

Yup, another person that doesn't know the facts.  China Shrek is revealing all too much.

 

Crew members don't pay taxes in the US  they pay them in their own country. Not our circus - not our monkeys.

 

Actually, I did pay taxes on my tips years ago - you just declare them.  The Government isn't stupid. 😉 

 

I'm quoting you as I don't want to give China Shrek the benefit of a post. 😉 

 

It is well known that most servers and bartenders do not claim all of their tips on their taxes.  If people give cash to cruise ship employees, it doubtful that they will claim all of this "cash" on their taxes. 

[RuthC]

18 minutes ago, ChinaShrek said:

It is well known that most servers and bartenders do not claim all of their tips on their taxes.  If people give cash to cruise ship employees, it doubtful that they will claim all of this "cash" on their taxes. 

Obviously not known to you is the fact that crew salaries (which can easily be traced) are taxable in their countries. Gratuities, however, are not.
So, now you have another reason to justify stiffing the staff. If the money isn't taxed, you shouldn't pay it.

[ithaca gal]

2 hours ago, POA1 said:

On the plus side, it'll give us a nice way to test out the new Ignore User features. 

 

My thoughts exactly.  It's amazing how easy it is to be kind to someone -- being less than that takes some work!!!   At least it will give him something to do and leave others alone for a few minutes!

 

[Turtles06]

14 hours ago, Billiegirl said:

Travelling soon on HAL and wondering what the company’s policy is on service charges. Although it says gratuities are added to your onboard account, are they mandatory because we prefer to give directly to the people who look after us. We are not trying to avoid paying, just who it goes to.

 

You're not able to "give directly to" all the people who look after you on a cruise ship.  Sure, you can tip your cabin stewards and dining room servers.  But you have no idea who cooked your meals, laundered your towels, etc.  

[Copper10-8]

10 hours ago, richwmn said:

A little more on Bartenders and Bar servers. Quite often there is an agreement between this group to pool their tips, either at a particular bar or the entire ship.

 

That is correct info, Petty Officer First Class Rich!  Having said that, the entire bar staff assigned to a certain bar this week, will rotate to a different bar for the following voyage, i.e. the two bartenders and the beverage waiter(tress) assigned to the Ocean Bar on Nieuw Amsterdam which just left PE this afternoon, will find themselves in a different bar, Crow's Nest, Gallery Bar, you name it, during the following new voyage, Wasn't sure if you were aware of that one. The exception to this is the barista assigned to the Explorations Cafe

[Copper10-8]

2 hours ago, POA1 said:

On the plus side, it'll give us a nice way to test out the new Ignore User features. 

 

Btw, in that Spaghetti Western you quoted on that other thread that appears to have gone to a place where the sun never shines, pretty sure Clint Eastwood's character "Joe" tips the saloon bartender a silver dollar. Clint has always known to do the right thing! 

[richwmn]

11 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

That is correct info, Petty Officer First Class Rich!  Having said that, the entire bar staff assigned to a certain bar this week, will rotate to a different bar for the following voyage, i.e. the two bartenders and the beverage waiter(tress) assigned to the Ocean Bar on Nieuw Amsterdam which just left PE this afternoon, will find themselves in a different bar, Crow's Nest, Gallery Bar, you name it, during the following new voyage, Wasn't sure if you were aware of that one. The exception to this is the barista assigned to the Explorations Cafe

Yes, I was aware of that. I believe that there might also be an exception for the Gallery Bar as that has some higher end liquors and the bartender assigned there has been trained in the differences.

[Copper10-8]

Just now, richwmn said:

Yes, I was aware of that. I believe that there might also be an exception for the Gallery Bar as that has some higher end liquors and the bartender assigned there has been trained in the differences.

 

Could very well be the case re: the Gallery Bar staff; haven't made myself familiar with that op as of yet 

[POA1]

12 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

Btw, in that Spaghetti Western you quoted on that other thread that appears to have gone to a place where the sun never shines, pretty sure Clint Eastwood's character "Joe" tips the saloon bartender a silver dollar. Clint has always known to do the right thing! 

Great. That post had several likes. 

[Copper10-8]

2 minutes ago, POA1 said:

Great. That post had several likes. 

 

As it should! 

[POA1]

5 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

As it should! 

I can't find the thread at all. At first I thought it might have been something I said...

[Copper10-8]

1 minute ago, POA1 said:

I can't find the thread at all. At first I thought it might have been something I said...

 

Kinda went like this:

A magician from Mexico tells his audience he will disappear on the count of three

So he counts "uno, dos....."  *poof*

And he disappeared without a tres

[Randyk47]

16 hours ago, DocJohnB said:

Not really Jacqui.

 

While I have been around C/C boards long enough to know (or understand) that lists are prepared for staff of those who have and who have not removed "gratuities", I have never actually seen such a list either accidentally or otherwise.  Nor, have I ever been privy to any crew member's contract to see what it says in regards to this subject (nor, for that fact, do I want to).

 

I just don't feel there is any realistic way for a supervisor (an anybody else) ascertaining which monies in a steward(ess)'s pocket came from a person who has withdrawn their HSC and which came from an "extra gratuity".

 

I have been cruising since 1993 (on most of the mass market lines) and have extended gratuities under both the old system and the newer system.  I have NEVER withdrawn from the HSC and and have NEVER NOT extended additional gratuities (as warranted).   I just have never gotten the "warm, fuzzy" that others have that the HSC in the best interest of "all" the crew.

 

I can’t speak to individual contracts but in previous tipping threads one or more member here actually quoted and as I remember even showed the page in the crew manual that very specifically laid out the requirement to surrender cash tips received from passengers removing or reducing the HSC.   As I recall it may have even laid potential disciplinary actions.  Unfortunately the search feature isn’t working so I’m only going on memory. 

 

I agree that the enforcement of the surrender requirement is problematic at best.  Some say the supervisors pay a lot more attention than we think, some say there’s a bit of self-policing which would imply others in the pool turn in violators,  some say it’s an honesty issue somewhat driven by the potential to be fined or fired, and some say it’s a hollow policy and is rarely or impossible to enforce.   I don’t know.  

[DocJohnB]

5 hours ago, Randyk47 said:

I agree that the enforcement of the surrender requirement is problematic at best.  Some say the supervisors pay a lot more attention than we think, some say there’s a bit of self-policing which would imply others in the pool turn in violators,  some say it’s an honesty issue somewhat driven by the potential to be fined or fired, and some say it’s a hollow policy and is rarely or impossible to enforce.   I don’t know.  

 

Although you have written it much clearer and more concise than me, I believe your statement above pretty much verifies what I wrote: 

 

Quote

I just don't feel there is any realistic way for a supervisor (an anybody else) ascertaining which monies in a steward(ess)'s pocket came from a person who has withdrawn their HSC and which came from an "extra gratuity".

 

[jtl513]

22 hours ago, DocJohnB said:

 

I just don't feel there is any realistic way for a supervisor (an anybody else) ascertaining which monies in a steward(ess)'s pocket came from a person who has withdrawn their HSC and which came from an "extra gratuity".

 

 

... or if a steward is under-reporting the amounts given. Basically it's an honor system backed by a little fear of getting caught cheating. 

[DocJohnB]

A big problem I have with "pooling" tips is that it not only rewards good service it also rewards poor service.  I will give you a personal example.

Years ago (on another line) the waitress we had was, in a word, atrocious.  She was on her 2nd to last week of her contract and just wanted to be off the ship and actually said so.  She was careless, inattentive and just plain rude.  Her assistant was just the opposite.  By the 3rd night, I complained to the Maitre d' who said he would take care of it.  Nothing changed.  I complained to him again on the 5th night and he asked me, "What did I expect him to do".  I told him get us another waiter, or at least let the assistant take care of us.  Again, nothing.  On the last night of the cruise, the waitress was all sweetness and light.  This was in the days of "envelopes for tips".  I told her I was not tipping her and explained why  (as did the other couples at the table).  The Maitre d" had the chutzpah to say, "I hope you enjoyed your cruise".  I told him he wasn't getting a tip and why and also that I was going to comment negatively on his "service" and did so.  This was the first and only time that I did not tip a crew member as intended.  I tipped the attendant as recommended and added the waitresses tip to his envelope and gave him extra kudos on his eval.

The point as it applies to this conversation is if the same incident were to occur today under the pooling scheme, there is absolutely no way that anybody could assure me that the waitress and Maitre d' would not get their share of the pie.

[sammiedawg]

Good points have been raised on both sides.  

Death, taxes, tipping are certainties for Americans.  You cannot fight it.  If someone wants  to remove the HSC, I will not moralize or lecture like some here are doing.  

However the money is distributed is above my pay grade as a customer.  I really don’t care because I know I contributed via the HSC. 

We leave the HSC in place.  The system is progressive compared to the old envelope system.  

We were infrequent cruisers in the olden days of envelopes, fixed dining, formal dress up.  Hated all three things and were especially  turned off by the tipping system. There was something swarmy about employees looking for their envelopes on the last night.  There was something swarmy about subtle and not so subtle tip solicitation.  

Because we were infrequent cruises I attended disembarkation talks.  But I quickly learned this was the “money talk”.  I walked out as soon as they started to instruct on the pp/pd formula for envelopes-  maitreD (which guy is that), the wine steward (but I only had wine once), etc. etc.   Big turn off.  

 

The HSC is a big improvement. 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by sammiedawg

[Stratheden]

This is the HAL crew manual that I have previously posted - I have only posted the cover and relevant tipping page.   Can we please just stop arguing about it and enjoy our cruising.