Evolution of Dining Attire

[Fla Mike]

On 11/15/2018 at 6:46 PM, cb at sea said:

Whether "denim" costs more than a tux or not, they are still JEANS.  Doesn't bother me, but the "cost" of an item doesn't matter at all, when describing formality!

  

Well said!

[davekathy]

30 minutes ago, davekathy said:

The only reason we  have our pictures taken is because we get two free ones per cruise. The time of day or suggested dress has nothing to do with it. 

OOPS! 

Edited November 17, 2018 by davekathy

[KatielouAustralia]

I just got off Radiance of the Sas and noted a similar trend. I am wondering if the "casual" feel of the ship contributes to the lack of recognition of the formal nights? Personally, I still like to dress up a little

[Midwestgal]

Formal in the Caribbean is different then formal in the states.

[OCruisers]

The "suggested" dress code and what most NOW actually wear is very different.

For better or worst ... that's the way things are now.  

We're OK with it with no real desire to go way back and needing to take a tux, suit, and sports coat on even a  short 7 day cruise.  

 

[kochleffel]

39 minutes ago, Midwestgal said:

Formal in the Caribbean is different then formal in the states.

 

In Curacao, a guayabera shirt is considered formal (depending, somewhat, on the quality of the embroidery).

[PhoenixCruiser]

When we are traveling with family and eating in the main dining room we always dress up.  When it is just the two of us we usually never enter the dining room and dress casually.

[Iamcruzin]

11 hours ago, 2Long2NxtCrz said:

  We're trying Celebrity -- in a week! -- and they have no formal nights, just evening chic.  Whatever that means.  I

 

It means the same way everyone dresses for formal night now on Royal Caribbean. The only difference is that Celebrity has the good sense to surrender the term formal and call it Chic which  just means elegantly and stylishly fashionable.   It leaves a lot for interpretation which is basically what people are doing on formal night now.

[2Long2NxtCrz]

38 minutes ago, Iamcruzin said:

 

It means the same way everyone dresses for formal night now on Royal Caribbean. The only difference is that Celebrity has the good sense to surrender the term formal and call it Chic which  just means elegantly and stylishly fashionable.   It leaves a lot for interpretation which is basically what people are doing on formal night now.

It's good to know I've planned the right attire.  Like i said, we enjoy dressing up, but don't really want to go all the way to tuxes and gowns, so it's nice to know that will fit in perfectly.

[GUEST71919]

On 11/15/2018 at 3:59 PM, davekathy said:

As you should. Choices are great and should never be influenced by others. 

Not to be snarky, but God I hope you don’t truly feel that way!? But then maybe you didn’t mean to state it as a blanket statement?. The only way that we have a civilized society and good relationships is that we care what others think and we are influenced by them and vice versa. The state of not caring about what another.person things/feels is unpleasant in a marriage and a society. I didn’t intend to do anything but read a few of these posts, but your statement took me aback. Someone can be an individual and also be influenced by others, it doesn’t have to be either extreme.

 

There is a great deal positive in doing some comforting - I know that, for example, I wouldn’t be thrilled if my daughter married a man who decided it was his choice to go find himself and so he quit working, decided it was just fine if his children wandered the streets free range {wouldn't want them to feel stifled after all} and concluded that washing clothes his clothes or their’s was hopelessly outdated and that.his little family could eat at the local soup kitchen because he simply preferred the freedom of spending his days on the beach unencumbered by the expectation of the rat race.  I think that a nice middle ground between utter independence and an attempt to care about those effected by us is “just right.”

 

Lynn

[sparks1093]

10 hours ago, BND said:

Cruising used to be something that only well off people could do and they dressed accordingly because that's what was socially acceptable.  As cruising has been made affordable for almost everyone, attire has followed suit.  We started cruising in 2005 and even then, everyone dressed up for dinner and on formal nights you saw long gowns and tuxes on most.  As cruiselines decided to cater to everyone, we're seeing a lot of changes.  I do agree with being on vacation and relaxing, but honestly, some take it too far and manners tend to follow suit. too.   People blame luggage limits, but even people who drive aren't packing dressy clothes.  As we cruise out of Baltimore and/or NJ every year at least once, we've seen those that drive dressing down.   Funny thing I've noticed is that the 20 somethings and those over 60 tend to dress up more than the middle aged cruisers do.  DH always takes at the very least a blazer/sportcoat and sometimes a suit and I always wear a dress for formal nights.  I also wear business casual (dresses, nice capris, slacks) to "casual" nights.  

Of course those same well off people used to dress for dinner at home, also.

[BND]

4 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Of course those same well off people used to dress for dinner at home, also.

Not necessarily, but when the occasion called for it, they did.  I went to school with middle, upper middle and wealthy kids in the 70's.  One particular neighborhood that attended my HS was very well off and I have been to many of the homes there.  They did not dress up daily, but they did take very nice vacations and dressed up accordingly.  In their daily lives, unless they had an event, they dressed casually.  But, when an event stated "formal attire requested" you better believe they did so.  And, I agree with a pp, "suggested" means more than a lot think it does.  Suggested means, this is the attire we think you should wear and is appropriate for the occasion.  It doesn't mean wear what you want.  Do we dress to the "nines"?  No, but we do dress up.  Formal doesn't mean ball gowns and tuxes.  Black tie does, but formal doesn't.

[BND]

12 hours ago, Midwestgal said:

Formal in the Caribbean is different then formal in the states.

And men in Bermuda wear shorts with jackets.  So, you dress the way the locals do on a cruise?  Really?  Think of all the places cruise ships go and look at what they consider formal wear and let me know if you still feel that way.

[Midwestgal]

Who’s  talking about what locals wear? I was referring to what the dress code is in the Caribbean at most five star resorts. 

[davekathy]

11 hours ago, 2Beeze said:

Not to be snarky, but God I hope you don’t truly feel that way!? But then maybe you didn’t mean to state it as a blanket statement?. The only way that we have a civilized society and good relationships is that we care what others think and we are influenced by them and vice versa. The state of not caring about what another.person things/feels is unpleasant in a marriage and a society. I didn’t intend to do anything but read a few of these posts, but your statement took me aback. Someone can be an individual and also be influenced by others, it doesn’t have to be either extreme.

 

There is a great deal positive in doing some comforting - I know that, for example, I wouldn’t be thrilled if my daughter married a man who decided it was his choice to go find himself and so he quit working, decided it was just fine if his children wandered the streets free range {wouldn't want them to feel stifled after all} and concluded that washing clothes his clothes or their’s was hopelessly outdated and that.his little family could eat at the local soup kitchen because he simply preferred the freedom of spending his days on the beach unencumbered by the expectation of the rat race.  I think that a nice middle ground between utter independence and an attempt to care about those effected by us is “just right.”

 

Lynn

I wouldn't have posted it if I honestly didn't feel that way. My reply was to that specific poster (asalligo, post #10) in reference to only this specific thread. Not to be snarky, stay focused.  

Edited November 17, 2018 by davekathy

[GUEST71919]

10 minutes ago, davekathy said:

I wouldn't have posted it if I honestly didn't feel that way. My reply was to that specific poster (asalligo, post #10) in reference to only this specific thread. Not to be snarky, stay focused.  

 

That was snarky, but I don’t need to tell you that. And  I was focused, no cognitive problem here as yet. I didn’t make it personal against you and made a point you may have meant it toward a single area of life despite what you typed. I am sorry that you felt that a personal comeback was necessary. You made a very broad statement and I responded to only what was said without insult toward you as a person. You had an opinion, I had an opinion.  I think we can have those without being insulting to each other’s intelligence. Thanks. Now I need to nail down my to do list for this busy day.  Hope everyone has a great weekend 🌞

[sparks1093]

2 hours ago, BND said:

Not necessarily, but when the occasion called for it, they did.  I went to school with middle, upper middle and wealthy kids in the 70's.  One particular neighborhood that attended my HS was very well off and I have been to many of the homes there.  They did not dress up daily, but they did take very nice vacations and dressed up accordingly.  In their daily lives, unless they had an event, they dressed casually.  But, when an event stated "formal attire requested" you better believe they did so.  And, I agree with a pp, "suggested" means more than a lot think it does.  Suggested means, this is the attire we think you should wear and is appropriate for the occasion.  It doesn't mean wear what you want.  Do we dress to the "nines"?  No, but we do dress up.  Formal doesn't mean ball gowns and tuxes.  Black tie does, but formal doesn't.

When I was growing up formal and black tie meant the same thing and a business suit was considered semi-formal at best. Obviously definitions have changed. I have to admit that my perception of how the wealthy dressed for meals is based on movies and print media. I knew wealthy people existed but we didn't run in the same circles. But i do remember people wearing suits to baseball games and flying on airplanes.

[GUEST71919]

23 hours ago, boscobeans said:

 

In my youth I worked for the Railway Express and remember people took cruises with more than a few suitcases. Let me tell you they were packed with more than just shorts and T-shirts..  LOL

 

Now they are considered to be antiques… 

 

I found one of these at an antique sale in the mid 80’s when I was 22 and had to have it (I’m sure my new husband must have been rolling his eyes internally lol). It was black leather and clearly made for a female as the interior cloth design was small pink and green flowers (and about the size of those old summer camp trunks we used - most of which were taken by car thankfully, rather than by air!).  In one of the drawers in the trunk I found a precious little cloth doll. I have not thought of that trunk for decades! Thanks for that nice memory recall! 😊👏🏻

 

Lynn

[davekathy]

16 minutes ago, 2Beeze said:

 

That was snarky, but I don’t need to tell you that. And  I was focused, no cognitive problem here as yet. I didn’t make it personal against you and made a point you may have meant it toward a single area of life despite what you typed. I am sorry that you felt that a personal comeback was necessary. You made a very broad statement and I responded to only what was said without insult toward you as a person. You had an opinion, I had an opinion.  I think we can have those without being insulting to each other’s intelligence. Thanks. Now I need to nail down my to do list for this busy day.  Hope everyone has a great weekend 🌞

Again my post to asalligo wasn't a broad statement. It was specific to this thread. Obviously you elected to interpret it as a much broader reply. If we are the only two dressed formally in the MDR and no one else is, the way everyone else dresses doesn't influence our choices. We don't care and not our concerns.

Edited November 17, 2018 by davekathy

[kochleffel]

4 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

When I was growing up formal and black tie meant the same thing and a business suit was considered semi-formal at best. Obviously definitions have changed.

 

It wasn't the first time that definitions changed. I've seen the 1922 edition of the Emily Post etiquette book, which was her first. It said that "informal" meant black tie (tuxedo) and "formal" meant white tie (and tails).

[GUEST71919]

Just now, davekathy said:

Again my post to asalligo wasn't a broad statement. It was specific to this thread. Obviously you elected to interpret it as a much broader reply. ☮️ 

The peace symbol seems a little silly after such a comment. No sense continuing this, can we agree to that? I had an opinion and specified that I was responding to exactly what was written and stated so clearly you may not have intended it that broadly. I did not belittle you or suggest you were ignorant and malicious in either post. Thanks, take care.

[davekathy]

4 minutes ago, 2Beeze said:

The peace symbol seems a little silly after such a comment. No sense continuing this, can we agree to that? I had an opinion and specified that I was responding to exactly what was written and stated so clearly you may not have intended it that broadly. I did not belittle you or suggest you were ignorant and malicious in either post. Thanks, take care.

Yea I edited the peace sign out for the obvious. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by davekathy

[BND]

1 hour ago, sparks1093 said:

When I was growing up formal and black tie meant the same thing and a business suit was considered semi-formal at best. Obviously definitions have changed. I have to admit that my perception of how the wealthy dressed for meals is based on movies and print media. I knew wealthy people existed but we didn't run in the same circles. But i do remember people wearing suits to baseball games and flying on airplanes.

Everyone wore suits and dresses when they flew, pretty much into the early 80's when it became more affordable to fly and discount airlines started appearing.    The first time I flew I was 12 (1972) and I wore a dress and pantyhose as did my mom and sister. Dad wore a jacket and dress shirt and tie.  It's just how everyone flew back then.  My point about dressing up had more to do with the perception that wealthy people always dressed up, which they didn't, except when socially required.   Please don't get your info from the tv or movies.  Print media showed wealthy people attending events, not their everyday life.  Anyway, my feeling on the subject is this disdain for dressing up comes from a couple of different things.  I think being told no one can tell you what to do while growing up and that conforming is somehow bad.  

 

I just think the effort to clean up for one or two nights shouldn't be that difficult.  Even on casual nights most do not wear shorts and t's.  I have found that when dressed up, people carry themselves differently and use their best manners.

[boscobeans]

1 hour ago, 2Beeze said:

 

I found one of these at an antique sale in the mid 80’s when I was 22 and had to have it (I’m sure my new husband must have been rolling his eyes internally lol). It was black leather and clearly made for a female as the interior cloth design was small pink and green flowers (and about the size of those old summer camp trunks we used - most of which were taken by car thankfully, rather than by air!).  In one of the drawers in the trunk I found a precious little cloth doll. I have not thought of that trunk for decades! Thanks for that nice memory recall! 😊👏🏻

 

Lynn

 In my younger (a lot younger) years I can recall picking them up for delivery to the various cruise ports and Delivering them back home after the cruises were over. 

 

At the time they would be plastered with big attractive stickers showing the various countries they visited.  Never did I imagine I would be cruising some 50 years later.  Not with one of those Steamers however.. LOL.

 

[GUEST71919]

27 minutes ago, boscobeans said:

 In my younger (a lot younger) years I can recall picking them up for delivery to the various cruise ports and Delivering them back home after the cruises were over. 

 

At the time they would be plastered with big attractive stickers showing the various countries they visited.  Never did I imagine I would be cruising some 50 years later.  Not with one of those Steamers however.. LOL.

 

I have seen photos, but was unsure of how long ago they were actually used. Honestly, I supposed they could not have been heavier than the luggage we take with us now (thank goodness for some status we have with Delta since my cases are regularly over  50 lb!). So interesting to have that history and to have seen those earlier forms of cruising first hand! I love history and genealogy, but both are poor seconds to the actual living of the experience. 👍🏼

 

Lynn