Schedule Changes drive me Nutz!

[Hlitner]

Just wanted to vent about airline schedule changes, especially when it comes from US domestic carriers like AA, United and Delta.  Like many cruisers we routinely book airline reservations far in advance (often as early as 330 days before the flight).  We also fly quite often for other travel purposes and could be categorized as frequent flyers.  I cannot recall the last time we booked a flight more then a few months in advance and actually kept the original schedule.  The US airlines routinely change schedules, cancel entire flights, and sometimes even change airports!   So this morning when I checked my e-mail what do I see but an e-mail from Delta about "schedule changes that Impact your Upcoming Trip."  And this "upcoming trip" are flights for next July-August :).  So what are the odds that the new flight schedule is going to actually still happen next July-August?  I would suspect zero chance.

 

But here is a dirty little secret known by most frequent flyers.  Once an airline changes your booked (and paid) schedule they are willing to negotiate and make further changes...generally with no penalties (because the change is their fault) or price changes.  So it can be an opportunity to get better flights that you did not originally book because they cost more money :).  So my advice to fellow flyers is to think about turning schedule changes to your advantage.  Do not hesitate to call an airline and politely express your displeasure with the schedule change and then suggest that there are other flights that would better meet your needs.  The latest change from Delta was for a Red-Eye flight between Seattle and Dulles....which was eliminated.  They had changed us to a Red Eye to ATL with a 47 min change to flight to IAD.  I easily convinced Delta to change us to an early (not red eye) flight that we had not originally booked because it would have cost us $700 more then the Red Eye (we are talking First Class).  Of course it is likely that we will have to deal with 2 or 3 further changes to even these flights....but such is life.

 

Hank

[alidor]

This is normal procedure and has been done for many, many years.

[CruiserBruce]

3 hours ago, alidor said:

This is normal procedure and has been done for many, many years.

 

I agree...and while it is very frustrating, it is sometimes not the airline's fault. Sometimes it is the airport's issues that causes changes. Sometimes the changes actually make the flights involved more likely to be on time, or more likely to make a gate available at arrival, or for the following flights. Of course, sometimes it does mess with your needs in the flights. But when you move thousands of flights a day like the majors do, it is complex.

 

We are frequent flyers as well. It is just part of flying.

[hallasm]

Changes are not only in US - also European flights are changed. I normally book flights very early and 80% of my bookings are changed. I also then use the opportunity to negotiate bettter alternatives- sometime a flight with s layover can be changed to a direct flight. I’m a Star Alliance Gold member and try always to fly flights operated by Star Alliance partners. 

[mom says]

Definitely not limited to US carriers. We currently have 2 different flights booked with Canadian carriers, which we made 3 and 5 months ago, respectively. Both gave had schedule changes. One has changed 3 times (so far). Such is life. Fortunately none have been major or required any action on our part, other than to remember the new flight times. I'm just happy that we're  getting the notices well in advance. There's nothing like going to online check in only to find out your flight times were changed months ago. 

[TruckerDave]

4 hours ago, alidor said:

This is normal procedure and has been done for many, many years.

I think Wilber and Orvile had their flight delayed by about 20 min as well. 😉

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, TruckerDave said:

I think Wilber and Orvile had their flight delayed by about 20 min as well. 😉

But they had more leg room then most coach on most carriers :).

 

Hank

[sumiandkage]

Delta is pretty infamous about 'schedule change Saturday' when they're messing with a database that's live to the customer and you get all kinds of odd things happening like an inability to change seat assignments on a flight already booked. 

 

Most of the time, schedule changes seem to be of the 5-10 minute variety, which isn't enough to trigger an allowed free booking unless that amount of time puts you under the airline's internal minimum legal connection time for that route and aircraft type.  As for major changes, I've also come to see the schedule change as more of an opportunity to get something better for the original price than as an annoyance.  

[sverigecruiser]

10 hours ago, hallasm said:

Changes are not only in US - also European flights are changed. I normally book flights very early and 80% of my bookings are changed. I also then use the opportunity to negotiate bettter alternatives- sometime a flight with s layover can be changed to a direct flight. I’m a Star Alliance Gold member and try always to fly flights operated by Star Alliance partners. 

 

Are you mostly flying with SAS? Maybe they change a lots of flights.

 

We normally fly with British Airways and maybe we have been lucky because our flights has never been changed.

[hallasm]

Yes - or Star Alliance - I book my flights very early - often 11 months in advance -  I do have cruises booked in end 2019 and 2020

This does apply both to SAS, Singapore Air, Swiss and Lufthansa - sometimes the change is only 10 to 30 minutes , but also  major changes.  For SAS there where many changes when they created SAIL (SAS Ireland).

The changes are mostly just after I have booked. So far It has never had a big impact and when it has been major changes I have even got better alternatives. (which were more expensive or not existed when i originally booked).

This is one of the disadvantages of early booking.

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by hallasm

[Globaliser]

3 hours ago, sverigecruiser said:

We normally fly with British Airways and maybe we have been lucky because our flights has never been changed.

 

There's an element of luck about that, because BA also goes through "schedule change season" twice a year.

 

The main differences are that international scheduling is done within the framework of the two IATA scheduling seasons; some airlines (like BA) are particularly constrained in having to work with their slot portfolio at specific airports; the number of long-haul flights an airline can operate is closely tied to fleet capacity, which is relatively inflexible, and long-haul flights tend to be concentrated at a relatively small number of hubs in the airline's home country. So international - particularly long-haul - schedules tend in general to be more stable than those across the US domestic network.

 

But there can still be drastic changes: one of the recent ones that I personally noticed was Qantas changing its route from London-Dubai-Sydney to London-Singapore-Sydney at only 7 months' notice, long after many people will already have booked any of the three combinations available on those flights.

[sverigecruiser]

1 hour ago, Globaliser said:

So international - particularly long-haul - schedules tend in general to be more stable than those across the US domestic network.

 

 

1. I have been lucky!

 

2. My long-haul flights are booked far in advance, and their schedule are more stable, and my short-haul flights, mostly ARN-LHR-ARN, are booked closer to departure.

 

[Cruise Junky]

I've also been lucky that I was able to cancel twice and get a complete refund over schedule changes.  So it's not just getting a better route. 

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, Cruise Junky said:

I've also been lucky that I was able to cancel twice and get a complete refund over schedule changes.  So it's not just getting a better route. 

One of our "favorite" experiences was with a huge schedule change put on us by AA...at the last minute.  We were scheduled to fly from MDT to PVR (our winter home) and had booked 1st Class far in advance.  About a week before the trip I just happened to check on our air reservation and saw that AA had changed our flight so that our connecting flight at ORD was departing 40 minutes BEFORE our initial flight even arrived.  Despite being a frequent flyer with AA they had not notified us of the sched change via e-mail, text or phone (and they have all this info).  There were also no other AA flights that day from ORD to PVR.  So I called AA and their customer service guy immediately apologized for not contacting us saying it was a common "computer glitch."  He then offered to book us on the following mornings flight from ORD to PVR...but admitted we would be on our own for paying for a night's hotel and meals in Chicago.  When I suggested that AA put me on a competitor airline so we could get to PVR the same day, he refused.  I finally told him I wanted a complete refund!  His answer was that the request would have to be "reviewed" at a higher level since I had a non-refundable airfare.  At that point I blew my top, told him I wanted a complete refund and wanted in quickly.  After 15 min on hold they"graciously" said we would get the refund in 2-3 weeks!  We were able to book other flights on Delta.

 

My issue is that the airlines do this to passengers every day and there is no "penalty" for the airline.  If we make a change most airlines have penalties ($200 a ticket is not unusual).  But when they make a change.....   While I do not like the government getting involved in most businesses I think we do need a tough airline passenger bill of rights,  I believe that airlines should be required to pay major penalties (in cash) for major schedule changes.  After all, it its good for the goose its good for the gander :).  I would be if they had a penalty equal to two - three times  the cost of the airfare there would be fewer major schedule changes.  In addition, they should then be required to ticket those passengers on other flights (even with different airlines) in order to get them to their originally ticketed destination the same day.  It took a similar financial penalty strategy (regulation) to finally get the airlines to stop long tarmac delays.  Money talks louder then consumers and the airlines listen to money while they treat consumers like sheep!

 

Hank

[sumiandkage]

23 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

My issue is that the airlines do this to passengers every day and there is no "penalty" for the airline.  If we make a change most airlines have penalties ($200 a ticket is not unusual).  But when they make a change.....   While I do not like the government getting involved in most businesses I think we do need a tough airline passenger bill of rights, 

 

The rules are already there in a lot of cases, and what the poorly trained customer service rep told you about there not being refunds on a schedule change was simply wrong. Unfortunately those poorly trained employees mean the end user has to do their own research about their rights and be willing to ask to escalate to a supervisor or, as they say on Flyertalk, HUCA (Hang Up Call Again)

 

I wouldn't like to see penalties for route or flight cancellations because that discourages creative routing attempts on the part of the airline. I think it's a good thing that, for example, American is giving a Philadelphia- Dubrovnik, Croatia nonstop a try and wish them well with it. 

 

One other schedule change angle that can sometimes work for you-  any change in the operating carrier on your ticket will normally make the 'free change or refund' rule kick in. This can be very useful if you're talking secondary and tertiary airports served by a mix of mainline and regional partner service because a change form, say, mainline United service to a plane with a United paint job that is actually 'Expressjet Airlines doing business as United Express' is indeed a change of operating carrier as far as the DOT is concerned. (Reading the fine print on ticket booking and reservation screens can be a Very Useful Thing)

[waterbug123]

On 11/25/2018 at 10:33 AM, Hlitner said:

But here is a dirty little secret known by most frequent flyers.  Once an airline changes your booked (and paid) schedule they are willing to negotiate and make further changes...generally with no penalties (because the change is their fault) or price changes. 

 

I don't think I'd classify it as a "dirty little secret."  Rather, I think of it as a beneficial policy, and most frequent flyers are well aware of it.  The only caveat is that usually the change must be a least a certain time period for the "free change" policy to kick in.  An hour is typical, but it can vary across airlines.  You can also request a full refund if you can't find an alternative schedule/routing that you prefer.

 

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 When I suggested that AA put me on a competitor airline so we could get to PVR the same day, he refused.  I finally told him I wanted a complete refund!  His answer was that the request would have to be "reviewed" at a higher level since I had a non-refundable airfare.  At that point I blew my top, told him I wanted a complete refund and wanted in quickly.  After 15 min on hold they"graciously" said we would get the refund in 2-3 weeks!  We were able to book other flights on Delta.

 

My issue is that the airlines do this to passengers every day and there is no "penalty" for the airline.  If we make a change most airlines have penalties ($200 a ticket is not unusual).  But when they make a change.....   While I do not like the government getting involved in most businesses I think we do need a tough airline passenger bill of rights,  I believe that airlines should be required to pay major penalties (in cash) for major schedule changes.  After all, it its good for the goose its good for the gander :).

 

In the frequent flyer world many of us engage in a practice we call HUCA....Hang Up, Call Again.  This is often more efficient that blowing one's top.  Sometimes you just happen to get an inexperienced agent on the phone that knows less than you do about airline policy, but if you call back the odds are if you call back you will get someone who DOES know what to do to make it right.  If you don't want to do that, then just calmly explain to the person and request that they get a supervisor if they are still unclear on what to do. 

As for penalties, be careful what you wish for.  Do you want the airline to have to pay you a significant amount of cash AND let you choose your new itinerary?  That seems like a double whammy to me.   I'd rather just be able to choose my adjusted itinerary, including rebooking in what might be a higher fare class, at no extra charge.    Either way though, you can't assume they would change flights less often.  Perhaps they would just start charging more for tickets in general to make up for the hit they take from the penalties.   I'm quite certain no one wants THAT!

 

[Hlitner]

LOL, love the HUCA post as that is also a very good option when dealing with cruise lines (my own area of expertise).  But we do notice a tendency, on various airline blogs (including here on CC) for some frequent flyers to consistently make excuses for the airlines and/or defend their very anti-consumer policies and practices.  Fortunately there are some air traveler advocacy groups which lobby Congress and the airlines to change some of their policies.  The latest big issue has to do with the space allotted to economy seats...which in some cases can be very dangerous (and even fatal) to one's  health.   For the airline "cheerleaders" that doubt the danger, just spend a little time reading about Deep Vein Thrombosis (DVT).

 

But we have not heard of any good excuses for the constant changing for flight schedules.....within the 330 day booking window used by many airlines.  While some schedule changes are necessary because of new or revised airline restrictions or changes in air traffic routing (I have some experience having had a private pilots license for over forty years) most changes are for the convenience of the airline.  The fact that they can change schedules at their leisure with total disregard to the convenience of their customers seems to drive many changes.  While we do not normally whine about small changes (such as 10 min) even these changes are sometimes driven by internal airline policy changes such as slowing down their aircraft by 20 knots to save money on fuel (a common practice when fuel prices increase).  One interesting issue that is becoming a bigger factor for some airlines is the shortage of pilots.  But while the airlines can try and use this as an excuse, they do have a pretty good handle on their pilot situation far in advance of the 330 day schedule window.

 

So I again go back to my the thesis of the other post which is that airlines should be required to pay penalties to passengers, for major schedule changes.  Money is the only incentive/disincentive that drives airlines and it is only penalties that will "encourage" a policy change on avoiding sched changes.  At the risk of repeating myself, it was only after major penalties were imposed for ridiculous tarmac delays that airlines dealt with the issue and substantially reduced tarmac delays.

 

The ability of informed frequent fliers to deal with the airlines schedule game is not a solution.  Many passengers have no clue how to deal with such issues and are at the mercy of the airlines (who have very little mercy) to treat passengers with more respect.    So now I will close with the thought that we are off again, later today, on Delta :).  If we arrive at our destination on time, with all of our checked luggage, we shall go out and celebrate with a stiff drink.  If we arrive late without our luggage we shall have a stiffer drink :).  Such is the life of a frequent traveler.

 

Hank

[Zach1213]

I don't always love schedule changes, but in some cases they really, really work out. My wife and I were flying back from San Juan earlier this year and wanted to stay an extra night but couldn't afford the flights - there was a huge jump in price from Saturday to Sunday, so we booked the Saturday night flight home. Then, yay...schedule change! Called the airline and within two minutes they had us on the Sunday flight for no price difference (originally double the price at time of booking), so we ended up getting our extra night in lovely San Juan.

 

Now, when they happen for business, it can be a PITA...but I rarely book flights for business far enough out that there is a schedule change. Even my longhaul flights are usually less than four weeks notice.

[sumiandkage]

39 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

 

The ability of informed frequent fliers to deal with the airlines schedule game is not a solution.  Many passengers have no clue how to deal with such issues and are at the mercy of the airlines (who have very little mercy) to treat passengers with more respect.    So now I will close with the thought that we are off again, later today, on Delta :).  If we arrive at our destination on time, with all of our checked luggage, we shall go out and celebrate with a stiff drink.  If we arrive late without our luggage we shall have a stiffer drink :).  Such is the life of a frequent traveler.

 

 

Don't forget to hit the stopwatch on watch or phone when the cabin door opens. My family has done very well with Delta's '20 minutes or 2500 miles' checked bags guarantee, typically on 21-25 minute bag times. 

 

Yes, I'm one of those folks who is willing to research and play the game to my advantage, and feel like further regulation would close off what are often very useful to me clauses in the rules, as well as increase prices. And as a middle class person who lives in an area with generally an uncompetitive airline situation,  I'm very reluctant to support rules that would likely increase travel costs further, especially when I've figured out the current sweet spot for making airline travel reasonably comfortable and affordable for my household. 

[Hlitner]

16 minutes ago, sumiandkage said:

 

Don't forget to hit the stopwatch on watch or phone when the cabin door opens. My family has done very well with Delta's '20 minutes or 2500 miles' checked bags guarantee, typically on 21-25 minute bag times. 

 

Yes, I'm one of those folks who is willing to research and play the game to my advantage, and feel like further regulation would close off what are often very useful to me clauses in the rules, as well as increase prices. And as a middle class person who lives in an area with generally an uncompetitive airline situation,  I'm very reluctant to support rules that would likely increase travel costs further, especially when I've figured out the current sweet spot for making airline travel reasonably comfortable and affordable for my household. 

Thanks for reminding me of their 20 min rule :).  The last time we flew Delta we could have collected miles by using that rule, but completely forgot about it until it was too late.    We also usually play the game, but I am also advocating for the many cruisers who have little experience dealing with airlines.    I am not sure I agree that imposing rules (or policies) that improve the entire flying experience will lead to an increase in costs.  Somehow Southwest is able to make a nice profit and keep ticket prices down while also not charging fees for checking luggage or changing their schedules every week.  I am always amazed at how the flying public will put up with SW's boarding system and still rank them the top airline in the USA.

 

Hank

[sumiandkage]

32 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

 Somehow Southwest is able to make a nice profit and keep ticket prices down while also not charging fees for checking luggage or changing their schedules every week.  

 

 

Southwest is not a cheap airline to fly on many of their routes. Their Wanna Get Away fares will commonly run 30% more compared to the legacy 3 from my local airports, and for last minute tickets when the WGA fares are no longer available, I've seen them run a 60%+ premium over American from out of here when we've had to be somewhere in 48 hours due to family emergency.

 

 

[Zach1213]

1 hour ago, sumiandkage said:

 

Southwest is not a cheap airline to fly on many of their routes. Their Wanna Get Away fares will commonly run 30% more compared to the legacy 3 from my local airports, and for last minute tickets when the WGA fares are no longer available, I've seen them run a 60%+ premium over American from out of here when we've had to be somewhere in 48 hours due to family emergency.

 

 

 

Yes, I rarely find Southwest to be the cheapest. Sometimes they are, often times they aren't. There are pros and cons to Southwest like every airline, which is why Delta/United/American still exist. Things to like about Southwest (in my case: no bag fees, generally friendly crews, no change fees), and things to dislike about Southwest (in my case: open seating, minimal International when that's almost all I do travel wise)

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, sumiandkage said:

 

Southwest is not a cheap airline to fly on many of their routes. Their Wanna Get Away fares will commonly run 30% more compared to the legacy 3 from my local airports, and for last minute tickets when the WGA fares are no longer available, I've seen them run a 60%+ premium over American from out of here when we've had to be somewhere in 48 hours due to family emergency.

 

 

True!  But in many markets those Wanna Get Away fares are very good (especially when you take into account that it includes two checked bags) and have driven down the fares of competitors.   But we have cruising friends from San Jose, CA that have an interesting strategy with SWA.  If they even think they might book a cruise, they will book their SWA flights as soon as the dates open up...even though they have not even booked the cruise.    If they decide to not take the cruise or perhaps fly-in a few days earlier they simply change their SWA reservation of cancel it!  SWA does not charge penalties and they issue a full credit for canceled reservations.  The credit is good for about a year and our friends do enough travel that they never have an issue using their SWA credits.

 

We routinely use SWA because of their low fares from the Northeast (we can easily fly out of BWI, DCA, or PHL)to FLL.  Ironically, we are flying down to FLL today from BWI, but decided to use miles and fly Delta.  With SWA it would have been an easy non-stop flight.  But with Delta it does mean changing at ATL :(.  

 

Hank

[Globaliser]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

But we do notice a tendency, on various airline blogs (including here on CC) for some frequent flyers to consistently make excuses for the airlines and/or defend their very anti-consumer policies and practices.

 

I think that a lot of the time, it's because those who are genuinely flying frequently (and I don't mean people like me who only do about one sector a week on average) know that much of what the industry does is done because it simply has to be done.

 

Those who don't fly frequently often over-estimate their importance or value to the airline. If you're not an important customer (ie worth several million dollars a year to the airline), not that much is going to be done for you. If you're paying a fare that barely covers your share of the averaged costs, or perhaps yields even less, it's not rational to be expected to be treated like royalty - even if that's the only flight that you've done in a decade and you are personally excited beyond measure about your trip. Unfortunately, on an objective basis that's simply completely disconnected with what you're worth to the airline. At those fares, the airline simply isn't going to go out of its way to make your life comfortable or easy - but then that is perceived by the passenger as being "anti-consumer".

 

It's never nice to be treated badly by any company. Genuinely frequent flyers (or even the less frequent leisure passenger like me) inevitably get their share of bad experiences. I've had them myself. But in the overall picture, it's just bound to happen. And most of the time, it just comes down to having paid tuppence ha'penny for the company to provide you with a routine miracle, which is what airline transport basically amounts to these days.

[sumiandkage]

6 hours ago, Globaliser said:

 

 

Those who don't fly frequently often over-estimate their importance or value to the airline. If you're not an important customer (ie worth several million dollars a year to the airline), not that much is going to be done for you.

 

There's nothing like a midday connection at ATL to make you realize you're one wee little cell in a hugely complex airline organism.  And I'm enough of an aviation geek to think that's actually really cool, especially when they're doing parallel simultaneous takeoffs and landings as part of the show and you can look up and see another 20+ planes  queued up in the sky behind your flight that just went wheels down. 

 

The secret to getting good treatment from an airline, even if you're on a cheap ticket and have no status often comes down to: Proactive, Persistent, Polite, and Pleasant*. If there's a big delay on your travel day and you're going to misconnect or there is other weirdness, the time to get rebooked is five minutes ago. I'm very good at out-hustling the high status folks and getting my new seats as they hesitate. (Gate Agents and Customer Service reps are under huge pressure to fix as many problems as quickly as possible during what the airlines call IRROPS or irregular operations. Once you get a new seat, they are extremely, extremely unlikely to move you out of it because then you've turned back into another problem to be solved all over again.) I'm also one of the nicest people in the world to gate agents on bad travel days- they've got a very hard and often thankless job, and kindness and treating them like a human beings is not only the right thing to do, it also often moves the process from 'things we are required to do under our contract of carriage to fix the ticket' to 'things not mandated by the CoC but we can do them if we think it's a good idea'

 

*note that Pleasant does not include lengthy small talk- keep interactions with airline employees as concise as possible so others on the same tight timeline as you also have a chance of getting helped.