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AlisonB1978

Why are P&O no longer docking in Amsterdam

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9 minutes ago, anniegb said:

 

What is the case law on that??

 

Annie

The definition of significant change is “major changes to your Package “ according to the T&C.

 

And whether this would amount to that is something only the courts could decide.

 

I’d certainly argue that it is, and the greater the part of the overall package that Amsterdam plays, the greater the chance of success.

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P&O threw the "not a significant change" at me when they made a 16nt cruise we had booked to a 15nt and they changed the day of every port visited, same ports just different days. I complained and only got as  far as the 1 day cancelled would be reimbursed as OBC. I wrote to P&O stating my contract with them for the cruise was paid in cash and so any reimbursement should be the same and 1 nt less and every port date changed was a "major change". I told them I had been in touch with ABTA and they had agreed with me so would see them in Small Claims Court. They eventually agreed to pay the 1nt reimbursement in cash and gave me the option of cancelling with no loss of deposit or costs. Regrettably we didnt cancel and when we went on the cruise we found out that many that had been given the same options cancelled. Found out that less than a month prior to the cruise the ship was less than half full and to fill it they invited P&O staff and their relatives  the cruise at ridiculously low price and we met many at dinner or in bars. That is how P&O treat their customers and things havent changed if not got worse and this was a few years ago on Oriana just prior to her refit.

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Just for information this is not solely a P&O decision as Cunard have done the same so obviously Carnival UK decision.

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2 hours ago, docco said:

The definition of significant change is “major changes to your Package “ according to the T&C.

 

And whether this would amount to that is something only the courts could decide.

 

I’d certainly argue that it is, and the greater the part of the overall package that Amsterdam plays, the greater the chance of success.

The sole POC is changed - if that is not major, I don't know what is.

 

Annie

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26 minutes ago, anniegb said:

The sole POC is changed - if that is not major, I don't know what is.

 

Annie

Agreed.  And that's a very strong argument to use against P&O, if necessary through the small claims procedure at minimal cost.

 

Various cruises are affected, and the greater the proportion of Amsterdam port days, as against the total number of port days, the greater the chances of success.

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11 minutes ago, docco said:

Agreed.  And that's a very strong argument to use against P&O, if necessary through the small claims procedure at minimal cost.

 

Various cruises are affected, and the greater the proportion of Amsterdam port days, as against the total number of port days, the greater the chances of success.

If someone has access to a legal advice service e.g. Which - it may be useful to check.

 

I understand an April cruise is impacted.  To make this announcement after collecting final payment is very calculated.

 

Annie

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There are ABTA issues here too which should worry Carnival - see below.

I'm confident that behaviour like this (changing a port at huge inconvenience to passengers just to wave two fingers at the Port of Amsterdam and save a relatively small sum per cruise) would not be living 'up to the standard expected of them by a reasonable person' and on that basis ABTA would find against them, with the attendant costs and bad publicity.

 

I'll be pushing all this to the hilt until P&O either change their minds (unlikely but possible) or offer sensible compensation.

 

6. General Conduct

 

Fair Trading and Disrepute

 

Code 6B

Members shall trade fairly; and responsibly; and not conduct their business in any manner that would bring ABTA or its Members into disrepute.

 

While the Code of Conduct Committee will consider each case on its own merits, it might be useful to note the guidance on the meaning of trading fairly issued by The Office of Fair Trading in the context of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations.

 

Examples of key concepts are that businesses must:

 live up to the standard expected of them by a reasonable person, and

 not lead a consumer to take a different decision, to buy or not buy a product or service, because they haven’t been provided with accurate or full information.

Members therefore must be very careful to avoid providing consumers with inaccurate or incomplete information when seeking to attract business or compete with other companies.

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Hi Alison - we're a group of 7 on the same cruise and are furious at the way this has been handled. So far we've written to both Josh Weinstein and David Dingle, R4 (You and Yours) and Anna Timms of The Observer.  I've posted several comments on P&Os twitter feed and sent them dms. So far they are saying there's nothing they can do. I think we should try to launch a mini campaign to create as much fuss as possible. I've been in contact on Twitter with approx 5 other passengers and their parties. I think there may be some passengers who booked via agents who don't even know yet. We only found out by chance on Sunday.  I'm on Twitter as @chetcombebandb. So please get in touch - DM me on Twitter?  This is too much to just give in and accept 😠

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On 2/14/2019 at 10:26 AM, Britboys said:

I too am on this cruise and very unhappy about the change.  If it had been just a one-day call, it would not have been so bad but the fact that we are there overnight makes it a poor decision imho.  Who wants a return coach journey of 80 minutes to go for a night out when on a cruise?

 

Of course, we don't know for certain that it is the new tourist tax that has caused this but it is highly likely.  The problem is that P&O shore-side are very poor communicators and using the cover-all "operational reasons" only winds people up.  Sadly, I don't think we stand a hope in hell of getting a goodwill gesture as P&O will just say that they are fulfilling their contract by providing free transfers into Amsterdam.

 

The problem is that they never think out of the box.  They could have written to all pax stating that a new tax had been introduced by the Amsterdam authorities and so they would need to add the equivalent of €16 to our on-board accounts but by way of a goodwill gesture will credit our accounts with £15 obc - which would of course cost them far less than £15.

 

In general, UK companies are far less customer care oriented.  I'm sure any of the USA -based cruise lines would deal with this in a much better fashion.

 

I am going to write a complaint too and would encourage anyone on this cruise to do the same.  They are inconveniencing us so let's inconvenience them!

On 2/13/2019 at 8:57 PM, janny444 said:

Hi ...I too have been affected by this change of POC...my second cruise to be affected this year so I am really disappointed. I know that they are offering free shuttles but I wonder at the logistics of that. How many shuttle buses are they going to use to transfer 3000 passengers? How long is one going to have to queue for if there is an inadequate supply of coaches. If there isn't enough room on the initial coaches you are going to have to wait for at least an hour and a half for the coaches to return....could be the same on the return journey....I envisage spending a considerable amount of time queuing and travelling to and fro to Amsterdam ....not what I had in mind when I booked this cruise...I thought we would be having 2 full days in Amsterdam to enjoy this cultural city....not messing about with coaches.

Don't think we will be " jumping through this hoop"

Hi - not sure how this forum works so apologies if I'm repeating my response 🙂 I agree that we all need to make as much fuss as possible.  The thought of thousands of passengers being loaded onto 'complimentary' shuttle buses (I laughed out loud at that - £600 plus for a four day break and we should be thrilled to be getting a bus!) fills me with dread. The whole advertising for the trip leads you to believe you can come and go freely once in Amsterdam.  Had I known there was the possibility of this not being the case we just wouldn't have booked.  This is our first 'cruise' and I won't be wasting money again on this sort of trip. There are too many things that can go wrong.  But in this particular instance P&O are really handling it badly. 

 

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Difficult one. P&O doesn't typically deal with customer satisfaction issues and campaign would need to be very large to gain traction but wouldn't of thought there'd be enough people. 😞

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Haza has helpfully posted this in another thread.  Legally, they're incorrect in what they say, and note that the drop-off is a mile and a half from Dam Square:

 

Had this response from them

 

Further to your recent telephone conversations with our Contact Centre, I am sorry for any disappointment caused due to Ventura's berth in Amsterdam being changed. 

I would like to advise that we have extended Ventura's stay in Amsterdam to factor in the travelling times. Therefore, you will still have the same amount of time in central Amsterdam and we will be running complimentary shuttle buses for the duration of our time in the port of call. The times of the shuttle buses will be confirmed on board and the service will be running throughout the day and night. The last shuttle bus will arrive back to the ship approximately 30 minutes prior to Ventura's scheduled departure on 15 April. 

The shuttle buses will be operating once Ventura has docked into IJmuiden and once clearance has been granted by the port authority. The pickup and drop off point will be at the Museum Square underground parking lot in Amsterdam. The shuttle buses will be running frequently throughout the day and the times during the overnight call may differ slightly. However, as mentioned above the times will be confirmed to you on board. 

We do mention in our booking conditions that we reserve the right to amend the berth arrangements and itineraries should this be necessary for any reason. Although we naturally avoid making such changes, I am so sorry that this condition has become so relevant in your case. P&O Cruises does not consider the change of the berth to be a significant alteration, therefore no gestures of compensation are being offered. 

I do hope the above information has assisted with your concerns and we do look forward to welcoming you on board soon. 

Kind Regards 

Emily Cole 
Guest Relations Representative

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33 minutes ago, DS_Dean said:

Difficult one. P&O doesn't typically deal with customer satisfaction issues and campaign would need to be very large to gain traction but wouldn't of thought there'd be enough people. 😞

You're probably correct.  But that's not to say that individuals can't take legal action against P&O after the event to claim compensation for a holiday that wasn't the one paid for.

 

Their T&C allow them to make certain changes, but not this.

 

ABTA may well also find against them, but that won't give rise to compensation, so court action through the small claims procedure will probably be necessary - unless they pay out certain individuals only.

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Hi all

Has anyone started a complaint with ABTA or looked into legal action yet 

 

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10 minutes ago, Haza said:

Hi all

Has anyone started a complaint with ABTA or looked into legal action yet 

 

I shall be making a formal complaint to ABTA (https://www.abta.com/help-and-complaints/customer-support) but it's too soon to start a legal action.

 

There would, theoretically, be a possibility of making P&O perform its contractual obligations via an equitable remedy known as 'specific performance' but in reality that would be very expensive, with practically no prospect of success.

 

The time for legal action is after the event via the County Court online Money Claims service (https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money).  At that point it will be possible to assess the impact of the changes on the overall package and you'll need to put a figure to the claim, in terms of damages.  It's a simple process, with minimal costs, and it's a route I'll certainly be taking, with, I think, an excellent chance of success.

 

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15 minutes ago, docco said:

I shall be making a formal complaint to ABTA (https://www.abta.com/help-and-complaints/customer-support) but it's too soon to start a legal action.

 

There would, theoretically, be a possibility of making P&O perform its contractual obligations via an equitable remedy known as 'specific performance' but in reality that would be very expensive, with practically no prospect of success.

 

The time for legal action is after the event via the County Court online Money Claims service (https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money).  At that point it will be possible to assess the impact of the changes on the overall package and you'll need to put a figure to the claim, in terms of damages.  It's a simple process, with minimal costs, and it's a route I'll certainly be taking, with, I think, an excellent chance of success.

 

Thanks - that's very helpful.  We'll also make a formal complaint to ABTA and look at the possibility of a legal claim afterwards.  I think - unfortunately - there's a cost for this which one would have to be prepared to 'swallow' in the event of an unsuccessful action.  Thanks, though - that's all really helpful.  Others may also want to consider emailing 'You and Yours ' on R4 as they often shame big companies into action. Good luck everyone. 

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2 hours ago, SandraMeyer said:

Thanks - that's very helpful.  We'll also make a formal complaint to ABTA and look at the possibility of a legal claim afterwards.  I think - unfortunately - there's a cost for this which one would have to be prepared to 'swallow' in the event of an unsuccessful action.  Thanks, though - that's all really helpful.  Others may also want to consider emailing 'You and Yours ' on R4 as they often shame big companies into action. Good luck everyone. 

'You and Yours' is a good option:

 

Contact You & Yours


You & Yours is on your side in a world of scams, frauds and rip-offs. We welcome your comments and questions for the team.

Send us an email now to youandyours@bbc.co.uk
and please do include a phone number so we can call you back.

Please state clearly if you wish to remain anonymous as your message may be read out on air or published electronically.

 

Costs via the online claim system should be fairly low - £35 for a claim up to £500 or £60 up to £1000.  This would be reimbursed if successful.  There's a slight risk of relatively small costs being awarded against you if you lose, so you'd need to consider carefully the facts of your own cruise, and whether P&O's claim that they're covered by Clause 40 of the T&C can be justified.  The greater the proportion of the cruise that is to be spent in Amsterdam, the greater the chances of success.  One night out of ten might be considered relatively unimportant, but one out of two or three a pretty major change.

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We have a cruise booked which leaves in a month and only calls at Amsterdam. We have complained to P & O about the change and are getting nowhere. Having contacted ABTA they say in our case there is not enough time to go through legal channels to cancel and get a refund. They recommend advising P & O that you are accepting the change under protest and then claim compensation through ABTA when you get back. Obviously the more people who complain to P & O the more likely they are to face up to their responsibilities.

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I've set up a separate thread on this issue, in case anyone wants to share information with each other in one specific thread:

 

P&O, Cunard +all Carnival brands changing Amsterdam to Ijmuiden: how to win your case

 

 

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I had a call from P&O today following my complaint. As expected, no change to cancellation T&C’s and no goodwill gesture. Couldn’t tell me what the “operational reasons” for the change were. She did say that the shuttle buses will run right through the night and departure on day 2 is currently scheduled for 7pm, meaning last bus back will be about 5:30. I guess that at least helps a bit with planning what you might do on day 2. 

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Thanks for the further information. You’d be very welcome to add this and join in the discussion mentioned at Post 69 above if you’re interested in joining in with a campaign to persuade P&O to change their attitude on this.

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IJmuiden is not Amsterdam...as Tilbury is not London...I have cruised to Amstrerdam twice with Cunard and docked at the cruise terminal..no problems..a pleasant walk along the river to the main station, canal cruises and popular areas. Get off and on when you want ..wonderful especially if this your only port of call and an overnight stay..very special and easy especially with a disabled person in a wheelchair....very doable and pleasant. let’s take the change...20 miles away... 50 mins travel..THERE AND BACK...2500 passengers getting off to their only port of call  as on our cruise Azura March how many buses ....Fourty or Fifty ..the waiting time to get on..what if it’s raining..my sons disabled in a wheelchair..this change is ridiculous...it’s about a stand and money...The cherry on the cake is we will not be dropped where 99% of passengers want outside Central Station or near but in some obscure underground parking lot  20-30 minutes from the centre....with a wheelchair it’s going to be that we don’t leave the ship...many thanks P&O for the change...You should have honoured cruises advertised as docking in Amsterdam not a port on the coast..then sell cruises like Brugge..Rotterdam as coach based products....words fail me.....

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Really well put our sentiments exactly we are on the same cruise and have done it before on Azura. The only people not understanding the major impact of this change are P & O. 

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31 minutes ago, hansol1966 said:

IJmuiden is not Amsterdam...as Tilbury is not London...I have cruised to Amstrerdam twice with Cunard and docked at the cruise terminal..no problems..a pleasant walk along the river to the main station, canal cruises and popular areas. Get off and on when you want ..wonderful especially if this your only port of call and an overnight stay..very special and easy especially with a disabled person in a wheelchair....very doable and pleasant. let’s take the change...20 miles away... 50 mins travel..THERE AND BACK...2500 passengers getting off to their only port of call  as on our cruise Azura March how many buses ....Fourty or Fifty ..the waiting time to get on..what if it’s raining..my sons disabled in a wheelchair..this change is ridiculous...it’s about a stand and money...The cherry on the cake is we will not be dropped where 99% of passengers want outside Central Station or near but in some obscure underground parking lot  20-30 minutes from the centre....with a wheelchair it’s going to be that we don’t leave the ship...many thanks P&O for the change...You should have honoured cruises advertised as docking in Amsterdam not a port on the coast..then sell cruises like Brugge..Rotterdam as coach based products....words fail me.....

 

In the context of how you describe the change and its impact,  how can P&O possibly claim this is not a significant change?

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8 hours ago, kruzseeka said:

 

In the context of how you describe the change and its impact,  how can P&O possibly claim this is not a significant change?

That's my view too, and I've put some extracts from the T&C on the other thread (re P&O - same situation exactly, same company in effect).

 

Depending on the number of port days in Amsterdam as against the total number of port days, I don't think they have a leg to stand on legally, but they're still toughing it out.

 

I wonder whether they think there's still a chance that the city of Amsterdam could yet back down, allowing them to put things back the way they were?  Seems unlikely, but we don't know the details of the arrangements they've made at Ijmuiden, and how 'concrete' they are.

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