P&O, Cunard +all Carnival brands changing Amsterdam to Ijmuiden: how to win your case

[the english lady]

Just to add the cruise lines had 2 months notice of this tax

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/319627/cruise-lines-anger-at-8-amsterdam-tax-on-day-visitors

 

So all cruises that are arranged at least a year in advance ,would have sold cruises stating Amsterdam , before this came in.

For all those who state they would be happy to pay it, there are probably an equal number, who having booked the cruise to suddenly be asked to pay an additional amount may say..no thanks. What do the lines do, they have to collect this additional amount.

Title of this thread is also slightly misleading. I thought it was some one who had taken the lines to task and had won a case.

Me I am just happy to be cruising. I have had so many ports changed over the years for so many different reasons.

I treat everyone like a Fred Olsen mystery cruise. With those you have no idea where you are going from one day to the next.

[rolandvanvelzen]

On 21 februari 2019 at 9:15 PM, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Maybe they wanted to pull out those cruises as well to "send a message" to Amsterdam. But moving all turnaround days to Rotterdam at such short notice may not be possible, maybe there's simply not enough space at all.  IJmuiden probably doesn't even have the infrastructure. 

 

IJmuiden is capable of handling all turn around as well as transit calls for ships up to a length of 294 m1. There can dock 2 ships in the basin at the Felison Cruise Terminal IJmuiden. All the infrastructure is there to handle a full turn around up to 3000 passengers.

 

IJmuiden, Rotterdam and Amsterdam are the 3 major cruiseterminals in the Netherlands.

[Harry Peterson]

2 hours ago, the english lady said:

Just to add the cruise lines had 2 months notice of this tax

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/319627/cruise-lines-anger-at-8-amsterdam-tax-on-day-visitors

 

So all cruises that are arranged at least a year in advance ,would have sold cruises stating Amsterdam , before this came in.

For all those who state they would be happy to pay it, there are probably an equal number, who having booked the cruise to suddenly be asked to pay an additional amount may say..no thanks. What do the lines do, they have to collect this additional amount.

Title of this thread is also slightly misleading. I thought it was some one who had taken the lines to task and had won a case.

Me I am just happy to be cruising. I have had so many ports changed over the years for so many different reasons.

I treat everyone like a Fred Olsen mystery cruise. With those you have no idea where you are going from one day to the next.

All those of us who booked these cruises did so on the basis that the port was Amsterdam, and not Ijmuiden.  P&O (and other Carnival companies) have changed that and apologised to those of us who have complained - but at the moment they won't allow cancellations and they won't compensate for the much more difficult access to the centre of the city.

 

The thread is intended to gather together information gained from P&O (which it is achieving), draw attention to the issue (also being achieved), and pool ideas as to how best to proceed against P&O to achieve a better outcome for passengers affected.

 

Ideas so far, just to summarise include the following, and some of us have already put these into effect:

 

1  Complain to ABTA (https://www.abta.com/help-and-complaints/customer-support/register-a-complaint) on the grounds that P&O have acted improperly and against the ABTA Code of Conduct ( https://www.abta.com/about-us/code-of-conduct) which requires members to 'Trade fairly; and responsibly; and not conduct their business in any manner that would bring ABTA or its
Members into disrepute.'

 

2  Complain formally to P&O itself at as high a level as possible.

 

3  Complain to your travel agent, if you have used an agent.

 

4  Contact consumer programmes such as BBC Radio 4's 'You and Yours' (youandyours@bbc.co.uk) with a brief description of what's happened.

 

5  Use social media such as Twitter and Facebook to broaden the coverage.

 

6  Ultimately, if P&O still refuse to deal with the issue fairly, make a claim against them through the County Court via the very simple online claims procedure ( https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money).

 

7  Bear in mind that although P&O will tell you that they have the right to do this under their terms and conditions, that's almost certainly not the case (though ultimately that will be for ABTA, and primarily the courts, to decide.  Take a close look at the T&C and you'll find this at clause 40:

 

40. Whilst P&O Cruises will do its best not to cancel or to make any significant alteration after a booking has been made, it shall nevertheless be entitled at any time prior to departure to cancel the Contract or to change and/or curtail the Package where this reasonably becomes necessary

 

'Significant alteration' means 'major changes to your package' - that's defined at Clause 1.

 

P&O take the line that this isn't a significant alteration (major change to your package) - that will depend on how big a part of the package Amsterdam plays.  The greater the part, the greater the change.

 

Note too that P&O must 'do its best not to cancel or to make any significant alteration after a booking has been made' and that a change can be made only 'where this reasonably becomes necessary'.

 

Very clearly P&O is not doing 'its best' not to make this 'significant alteration' - far from it, in fact: it's actually doing completely the opposite of that, and for these reasons my view is that the County Court will find very clearly against them when/if it goes to court.  The compensation will depend on the particular facts of each affected cruise, and what actually happens on that cruise, but the sums could be substantial.

 

Just a few thoughts, which are intended to help anyone (and there are several of us already) planning to push P&O/Carnival on this until they play fair, and if they don't play fair, take it to court - a very simple and inexpensive process.

[jemal]

We are on Ventura N907.  We have registered a complaint through "Resolver."  Resolver is endorsed by Martin Lewis. It is a free online tool. Very easy to use. 

[Harry Peterson]

7 minutes ago, jemal said:

We are on Ventura N907.  We have registered a complaint through "Resolver."  Resolver is endorsed by Martin Lewis. It is a free online tool. Very easy to use. 

Thanks. Another excellent suggestion to add to the armoury.

[BrianI]

I would like to point out that the "tax" is €8 per day per person. As many cruises stay overnight, these will attract a tax of €16. 

Brian

[terrierjohn]

On 2/24/2019 at 12:45 PM, docco said:

Thanks. Another excellent suggestion to add to the armoury.

Not bothered for myself, but yesterday Twitter was highlighted as the best social media site to raise complaints.  I have no idea how Twitter works but it was indicated that most complaints made to a company's Twitter account usually resulted in an immediate response as companies did not  like to see complaints re-tweeted in case they raise a storm of "twittering", forgive me that's my wording but you get the drift.

[Harry Peterson]

18 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Not bothered for myself, but yesterday Twitter was highlighted as the best social media site to raise complaints.  I have no idea how Twitter works but it was indicated that most complaints made to a company's Twitter account usually resulted in an immediate response as companies did not  like to see complaints re-tweeted in case they raise a storm of "twittering", forgive me that's my wording but you get the drift.

Once again, thanks for an excellent suggestion.

[SandraMeyer]

5 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

Not bothered for myself, but yesterday Twitter was highlighted as the best social media site to raise complaints.  I have no idea how Twitter works but it was indicated that most complaints made to a company's Twitter account usually resulted in an immediate response as companies did not  like to see complaints re-tweeted in case they raise a storm of "twittering", forgive me that's my wording but you get the drift.

Hi Terriejohn - I lodged my complaint via Twitter and saw several comments from passengers on the 'Amsterdam' cruise/bus trip. I got a speedy response asking me to DM (direct message) them, which I did but it's clear they're not going to take our complaints seriously. I did post some critical comments about the handling of the change and said I felt we'd been mis-sold to. My husband wrote to the MD and CEO and one of their assistants called today to say that they would not be offering any compensation as this was not a 'significant change'. We're appalled that they've taken this attitude and will continue to seek some sort of satisfaction from what is - for us - a wholly unsatisfactory situation. 

[Harry Peterson]

18 minutes ago, SandraMeyer said:

Hi Terriejohn - I lodged my complaint via Twitter and saw several comments from passengers on the 'Amsterdam' cruise/bus trip. I got a speedy response asking me to DM (direct message) them, which I did but it's clear they're not going to take our complaints seriously. I did post some critical comments about the handling of the change and said I felt we'd been mis-sold to. My husband wrote to the MD and CEO and one of their assistants called today to say that they would not be offering any compensation as this was not a 'significant change'. We're appalled that they've taken this attitude and will continue to seek some sort of satisfaction from what is - for us - a wholly unsatisfactory situation. 

I've had the 'significant alteration' argument at the same level, but, like you, I'm certainly not accepting it - simply because they won't be able to sustain that argument (see post 138 above) when it comes to court action (though I'm confident they'll settle out of court to avoid all the publicity and cost).

 

Now's not the time for that - but, P&O, if you happen to be reading this thread, my door's always open for an offer.  I think you know who I am!  🙂

[Haza]

Docco

Tried to PM you but site wont let me !!!

[Harry Peterson]

4 minutes ago, Haza said:

Docco

Tried to PM you but site wont let me !!!

Not sure why that is. Something in the settings? You’re not a P&O plant are you, about to offer a settlement proposal?  🤣

[Lizzie53]

We too are going to keep on fighting. How can a decision that has angered so many people not be ‘significant’ P & O have been completely indifferent to the opinions of its customers.

[Harry Peterson]

2 minutes ago, Lizzie53 said:

We too are going to keep on fighting. How can a decision that has angered so many people not be ‘significant’ P & O have been completely indifferent to the opinions of its customers.

Again, see post 138 If you’re interested in pursuing that point against P&O.

[majortom10]

Everyone has the ultimate payback and that is not to cruise with P&O again because they will not change and will continue treat their customers like they do because they get away with it because people still keep on returning. We had our cruise in 2011 on Oriana when they reduced the cruise by 1 night, then refused to return 1 nt they cancelled in cash as per contract and tried to return it on OBC, cancelled one port completely and changed every other port of call to a different day, same ports just different day. They then tried to say it wasnt a significant change but in the end after many communications they agreed to return my 1 nt cancelled in cash and that is far as it got no compensation of any kind. So P&O havent changed and never will and best of luck for those trying to get compensation but do not think you will get anywhere.

[Harry Peterson]

23 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

Everyone has the ultimate payback and that is not to cruise with P&O again because they will not change and will continue treat their customers like they do because they get away with it because people still keep on returning. We had our cruise in 2011 on Oriana when they reduced the cruise by 1 night, then refused to return 1 nt they cancelled in cash as per contract and tried to return it on OBC, cancelled one port completely and changed every other port of call to a different day, same ports just different day. They then tried to say it wasnt a significant change but in the end after many communications they agreed to return my 1 nt cancelled in cash and that is far as it got no compensation of any kind. So P&O havent changed and never will and best of luck for those trying to get compensation but do not think you will get anywhere.

It all depends on the particular circumstances, and in this situation it will depend very much on the impact that the Amsterdam change has on the overall cruise.

 

How far you get with P&O will also depend on how far you’re prepared to take it, and ultimately whether you’re prepared to take action through the County Court.

 

I am, and if necessary I will, because it’s simple online and it’s very low cost. I hope others who feel equally strongly will do the same. Before that, though, there are plenty of other options..........

[Selbourne]

I have to say that although I am unaffected, as none of our future cruises are going to Amsterdam, I do have sympathy with those who are affected by this issue. When we went to Amsterdam on Ventura, the cruise out of the city centre at night was fantastic and the transit through the sea lock was also a great experience. 

 

For what its worth, there have been two instances in our 16 cruises with P&O when I have managed to obtain quite sizeable compensation from them. Once when 2 out of the 4 advertised ports changed and another time when we had major issues with a suite. In both cases I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement, which did make me smile as it was worded incorrectly and was completely unenforceable as a result!

 

In the case of the port changes (as it’s more relevant to this issue), it took some time. My initial complaint resulted in nothing. My follow up complaint to the MD didn’t even get a reply. I then complained about that and was made a small offer as compensation, with the emphasis being that it was because I had not received a reply, not because of the itinerary change. I declined the offer. Due to the delay I had a bee in my bonnet and I did my homework and contacted the harbour masters at the affected ports and (much to my surprise) they provided me with dates when Carnival had made the changes and the reason for the change (we had been ‘bumped’ by a Cunard ship). I was able to demonstrate that P&O had continued to market the cruise for many months after they knew that the ship wasn’t going there. As a result, my final offer was five times the offer I had declined. 

 

If there is a moral to this story, it might be that I did all of this myself and directly with P&O, not through social media. Once an issue gets a lot of air time and more and more people get involved, P&O will become less and less likely to resolve it satisfactorily, for fear that the flood gates will open. I wish everyone well with their quest and hope that my experience may give some pause for thought. 

 

 

[Underwatr]

2 hours ago, majortom10 said:

refused to return 1 nt they cancelled in cash as per contract and tried to return it on OBC

 

Refundable OBC or nonrefundable?

[Harry Peterson]

6 hours ago, Selbourne said:

.......I wish everyone well with their quest and hope that my experience may give some pause for thought. 

 

 

Thanks very much for that, Selbourne. 

 

It's a very interesting and useful experience to share, and I can confirm from my own experiences with them that they do eventually give way, but only after a good deal of persistence and when they finally realise it will cost them less to settle than it will to tough it out. 

 

Cases lost in the courts by brands as well known as P&O and Cunard can receive a lot of publicity when a company is shown to be playing fast and loose with its customers, and the damage to their reputation can cost them a lot of customers.  That's not the first time I've heard of them using non-disclosure agreements, either.

[kruzseeka]

.....the harbour masters at the affected ports and (much to my surprise) they provided me with dates when Carnival had made the changes and the reason for the change (we had been ‘bumped’ by a Cunard ship). I was able to demonstrate that P&O had continued to market the cruise for many months after they knew that the ship wasn’t going there. (Selbourne)

 

And therein lies the rub - and, what I suspect, makes people so angry.  Yes, they have the right under their T&Cs to make reasonable changes (and the definition of that is another issue!!) but the cynical, one might say immoral, practice of any cruise line continuing to sell cruises under false pretences is dishonest and deplorable. 

I wish you all well with your determination to call them out.  Any of us could be in this position. Having a contract which is so one-sided and apparently so easy to hide behind needs challenging. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by kruzseeka

[Harry Peterson]

4 minutes ago, kruzseeka said:

the harbour masters at the affected ports and (much to my surprise) they provided me with dates when Carnival had made the changes and the reason for the change (we had been ‘bumped’ by a Cunard ship). I was able to demonstrate that P&O had continued to market the cruise for many months after they knew that the ship wasn’t going there.

 

And therein lies the rub - and, what I suspect, makes people so angry.  Yes, they have the right under their T&Cs to make reasonable changes but the cynical, one might say immoral, practice of any cruise line continuing to sell cruises under false pretences is dishonest and deplorable. 

I wish you all well with your determination to call them out.  Any of us could be in this position and having a contract which is so one-sided and apparently so easy to hide behind needs challenging. 

Good point. And one that should be noted by those posters who seem more determined to cling to the notion that P&O needs to be defended, whatever it does, than accept the reality of the situation - which is that it will do whatever it can to wriggle out of its legal responsibilities if it can possibly get away with it.

[daiB]

This is what I wrote before trying to point out to those affected that this was not the clear cut situation that some were painting it to be. I am not sure which part was defending the company. 

 

 It is not as clear cut as certain people are saying it is.

2. Amsterdam has always been a difficult port to get to particularly in windy weather. Many posters have experienced this.

3. The €8 mentioned as the reason for the change is not as solid as some think. The cost of providing shuttle buses for 3k to 5k passengers will be above this amount or if not very close to it.

4. I suspect that there are other factors that we know nothing about.

5. The company are offering free shuttles to Amsterdam which will drop off nearer the city than the other cruise terminal.

6. The stay in Amsterdam will not be reduced in time as the ship will arrive earlier and leave later.

7. Ijmuiden is classed as a port/berth for Amsterdam.

 

With any luck this will sorted by the time we have our cruise there in October. At least we can be guaranteed that we will get into the berth however strong the wind is. When we went there last time we got in but were 15 hours late in departing. This was the middle of October.

 

The other point is that the position is such that I cannot see that the company will admit to anyone that this is a substantial change because companies don’t do that. The ones which have moved to Rotterdam have done this but that is much more clear cut. 

 

I look forward to the resolution as I am on a cruise in October going to Amsterdam.

 

 

[daiB]

10 hours ago, Selbourne said:

I have to say that although I am unaffected, as none of our future cruises are going to Amsterdam, I do have sympathy with those who are affected by this issue. When we went to Amsterdam on Ventura, the cruise out of the city centre at night was fantastic and the transit through the sea lock was also a great experience. 

 

For what its worth, there have been two instances in our 16 cruises with P&O when I have managed to obtain quite sizeable compensation from them. Once when 2 out of the 4 advertised ports changed and another time when we had major issues with a suite. In both cases I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement, which did make me smile as it was worded incorrectly and was completely unenforceable as a result!

 

In the case of the port changes (as it’s more relevant to this issue), it took some time. My initial complaint resulted in nothing. My follow up complaint to the MD didn’t even get a reply. I then complained about that and was made a small offer as compensation, with the emphasis being that it was because I had not received a reply, not because of the itinerary change. I declined the offer. Due to the delay I had a bee in my bonnet and I did my homework and contacted the harbour masters at the affected ports and (much to my surprise) they provided me with dates when Carnival had made the changes and the reason for the change (we had been ‘bumped’ by a Cunard ship). I was able to demonstrate that P&O had continued to market the cruise for many months after they knew that the ship wasn’t going there. As a result, my final offer was five times the offer I had declined. 

 

If there is a moral to this story, it might be that I did all of this myself and directly with P&O, not through social media. Once an issue gets a lot of air time and more and more people get involved, P&O will become less and less likely to resolve it satisfactorily, for fear that the flood gates will open. I wish everyone well with their quest and hope that my experience may give some pause for thought. 

 

 

We had the suite problem as well which was resolved with the same result as you within 2/3 days on the ship before the end of the cruise.

 

Easier to get an individual problem resolved rather than one which would involve the whole ship.

[nomadgirluk]

We are on a cruise departing 14 July which we also booked specifically for the overnight stop in Amsterdam.  Travel agent says that the change is because of the €8 per person berthing fee which the city has imposed.  I tend to agree that there has to be more to it than that, as the cost of laying on shuttle buses will far outweigh the €8 fee.  We are rather disappointed that we won't be able to come and go as we first thought and the shuttle business will require some planning, especially since they don't appear to be stopping anywhere near Dam Square.  If there is a petition or similar, I will gladly add my name, but I fear that any court action will be drawn out, expensive and ultimately futile.  I feel that life is just too short to get bogged down with this and we will make the most of our cruise, despite this change to itinerary.

[Harry Peterson]

10 minutes ago, nomadgirluk said:

We are on a cruise departing 14 July which we also booked specifically for the overnight stop in Amsterdam.  Travel agent says that the change is because of the €8 per person berthing fee which the city has imposed.  I tend to agree that there has to be more to it than that, as the cost of laying on shuttle buses will far outweigh the €8 fee.  We are rather disappointed that we won't be able to come and go as we first thought and the shuttle business will require some planning, especially since they don't appear to be stopping anywhere near Dam Square.  If there is a petition or similar, I will gladly add my name, but I fear that any court action will be drawn out, expensive and ultimately futile.  I feel that life is just too short to get bogged down with this and we will make the most of our cruise, despite this change to itinerary.

Petitions rarely have an impact, but another complaint to ABTA might get you somewhere.  County Court action (old small claims procedure) is very, very simple and easy - done mainly online.  Not expensive, unlikely to be drawn out, totally within your own control, and I think the grounds (see post 138 above) are easily strong enough for success - depending, though, on the number of Amsterdam port days as against the total number of port days.

 

Carnival are using their customers as a lever against the City of Amsterdam, and I'd disagree that the cost of running the buses will outweigh the 8 Euro per passenger charge they would have had to pay.  Hired buses are pretty cheap on this sort of scale, particularly when you have Carnival's negotiating power.

 

The ability to wander on and off the ship and into the city at will has been taken away by Carnival's stand against Amsterdam, and we poor passengers pay the price.  A lengthy bus transfer to somewhere a mile and a half from the city centre is no recompense.