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Harry Peterson

P&O, Cunard +all Carnival brands changing Amsterdam to Ijmuiden: how to win your case

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30 minutes ago, the english lady said:

I had a thought about this. If anyone does go down the legal route, is it possible that at the end, whatever the outcome,  if they try and book any future cruises with ANY Carnival brand , that their booking will not be accepted.

The company would not wish to go down the court route anytime they need to change a port for whatever reason. Would they not find it easier to say sorry we cannot accept you booking. Just a thought that popped into my head.

I suppose they could take that line, but can you imagine the appalling publicity?  And would you really want to make any bookings with a company that took that approach?

 

Speaking as someone who will certainly take the court route if they don’t come up with a suitable offer, with or without a non-disclosure agreement, I’m already so disenchanted with the way P&O treats its customers that alternatives to cruising with them are becoming increasingly more appealing.

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But we could not just be talking about pando. I did say any carnival brand. People have been banned from lines in the past for various reasons. The publicity just isn't there for someone who can't get the booking they want.

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47 minutes ago, the english lady said:

But we could not just be talking about pando. I did say any carnival brand. People have been banned from lines in the past for various reasons. The publicity just isn't there for someone who can't get the booking they want.

Certainly, and my comments apply equally to all Carnival brands - but the one I'm currently booked with is P&O.  I really don't much care if they block me (though any company blocking a customer who succeeded against it in a court action would be playing with media fire!)

 

Some interesting comment from Carnival Corporation CEO Arnold Donald to Business Insider very recently.

 

He says he wants to make sure each of Carnival's nine brands appeals as much as possible to its target demographic.


"We look at, for each of our brands, what about that brand resonates most with the guests that choose that brand," he said. "And then we just keep trying to get better at that."

 

So, for P&O I imagine the target demographic is older, more accepting, frequently Mail and Express reading, British people who'll take any old nonsense, including poor customer service, from a company, legally justified or not, without effectively challenging it.

 

That's a pretty great demographic to be playing to, isn't it?  And I'm delighted that some of us are going to make it our business to show Carnival that you can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time - and that bad publicity can hurt you in the pocket.

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Hi docco....you are very much a person after my own heart....if an " injustice" is perceived then you see it through determinedly but of course not everyone is like that...they prefer to take the " easier" road and go along with what is doled out and just think that is how it is.

Some years ago I took on a major high street TA....made a mistake a few posts ago and named it ...my post was removed so hopefully how I have put it will pass " muster"....they changed my flight times for " operational" reasons to a time which was totally unacceptable even though it was in their T&Cs that they could but I had told them at the point of booking that I didn't do night flights. Took me months of " wrangling the bone" but eventually they returned my monies paid in full

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I don't think pando cruisers just sit back an accept anything and everything that happens. Equally we understand that a cruise is not like every other holiday. I think the term here is you may or may not win this battle but you will not win the war. If you go onto fb there are some fan sites that have people on the current world cruises posting. They are missing out ports  left right and centre for various reasons. Equally you are not talking of somewhere you can get to very easily from the UK any time. You are talking about the other side of the world, that due to cost you may never ever get the chance to visit again. .the cruise lines had 2 months notice of the tax being brought in. By that stage most of the cabins would have been sold. So what do you do..as much about the timescale of notice given as anything else.Carnival decided there was not a lot for them to do than dock elsewhere. 

Out of interest if your cruise was still going to Amsterdam, and couldn't get in for whatever reason, usually weather related..the cruise then is a cruise to nowhere..except the North Sea. What would you have done then.

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54 minutes ago, the english lady said:

I don't think pando cruisers just sit back an accept anything and everything that happens. Equally we understand that a cruise is not like every other holiday. I think the term here is you may or may not win this battle but you will not win the war. If you go onto fb there are some fan sites that have people on the current world cruises posting. They are missing out ports  left right and centre for various reasons. Equally you are not talking of somewhere you can get to very easily from the UK any time. You are talking about the other side of the world, that due to cost you may never ever get the chance to visit again. .the cruise lines had 2 months notice of the tax being brought in. By that stage most of the cabins would have been sold. So what do you do..as much about the timescale of notice given as anything else.Carnival decided there was not a lot for them to do than dock elsewhere. 

Out of interest if your cruise was still going to Amsterdam, and couldn't get in for whatever reason, usually weather related..the cruise then is a cruise to nowhere..except the North Sea. What would you have done then.

 

If a cruise can’t get in due to bad weather then that is not something that is in anyone’s control.

 

Changes like the one being described by those affected are in the control of the company, they chose to change the port from the one that was advertised and that passengers booked and paid for: the port is still available and other cruise companies are still using it. They could still provide passengers with the port they contracted to go to, I am sure that most passengers would choose to pay the extra 16 euros for the convenience of being in central Amsterdam. They have not been given that or any other choice eg to cancel.

 

Personally I think that far too many cruise passengers are too accepting of anything that the company chooses to do to them. The more people accept this the more the cruise companies are likely to push changes that benefit them but not their passengers.

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Out of interest if your cruise was still going to Amsterdam, and couldn't get in for whatever reason, usually weather related..the cruise then is a cruise to nowhere..except the North Sea. What would you have done then. 

 

 

you did not answer this point

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5 minutes ago, sogne said:

Out of interest if your cruise was still going to Amsterdam, and couldn't get in for whatever reason, usually weather related..the cruise then is a cruise to nowhere..except the North Sea. What would you have done then. 

 

 

you did not answer this point

Because it’s not really of any relevance.  I booked a cruise calling at Amsterdam, not Ijmuiden, and for very good reasons. I also took into account the likelihood, very small, of the ship not getting into Amsterdam at that particular time of the year.

 

P&O used Amsterdam for a very good reason - it makes those cruises more saleable and gets them better prices than Ijmuiden would. It too knows all about the small weather risk. So it’s sold Amsterdam, but is providing Ijmuiden to save itself money and run a crusade against Amsterdam. That isn’t allowed by its own T&C, and that’s where it’s going to come unstuck by those of us challenging it.

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16 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

I have had experience of P&O for 19yrs and nearly 30 cruises and my money is on P&O winning.

We'll see, won't we? 

 

But that's exactly the customer attitude that P&O bank on - they know their customer base very well.  But even P&O know that despite the generality there will always be some a smallish number of people willing and able to challenge them, and to take those challenges as far as it takes to succeed - including court action (online, and very straightforward these days).

 

It's clear from these threads that they'll often offer to settle, but only if the claimant accepts a non-disclosure agreement.  That's quite possibly going to be the outcome here, but ultimately I'm more than happy, if necessary, to take court action.

 

I fully acknowledge and respect your experience of cruising with P&O, but that's not really what matters here - it's more the experience of taking on big companies who think they can bully gullible customers into thinking they'll always win.

 

What delights me about this thread is to see the number of people who are plainly not going to accept that bull, who have reported them to ABTA, and who are going to take it further than that if necessary.  I suspect we're going to see a number of NDAs (or, more accurately, not see them!) and no legal actions, but who knows?

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3 minutes ago, sogne said:

Out of interest if your cruise was still going to Amsterdam, and couldn't get in for whatever reason, usually weather related..the cruise then is a cruise to nowhere..except the North Sea. What would you have done then. 

 

 

you did not answer this point

That's got nothing to do with this topic. If your cruise is affected due to weather or other reasons while you are at sea that is out of our control and I would accept this. 

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I’ve submitted my complaint to ABTA. It’s not what we booked and we’ve not been given an explanation or answers to simple questions. There’s been no opportunity for full cancellation refund and not even an offer of a goodwill gesture. 

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I have read most of this thread and whilst the issue does not affect me, I feel that docco and those of you challenging this very poor customer service by P&O are to be congratulated.  I just cannot understand the apologists for the company in this instance.

 

Some years ago I started proceedings to take easyJet to the Small Claims Court  but it was settled almost as soon as they received notification (and yes, a non-disclosure agreement is in place).  It was like beating my head against a wall getting anyone senior to take notice until I did this.  And I am still a customer of theirs! 

 

I really hope to read of a successful outcome for those affected.  Good luck.

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9 minutes ago, mrsgoggins said:

I have read most of this thread and whilst the issue does not affect me, I feel that docco and those of you challenging this very poor customer service by P&O are to be congratulated.  I just cannot understand the apologists for the company in this instance.

 

Some years ago I started proceedings to take easyJet to the Small Claims Court  but it was settled almost as soon as they received notification (and yes, a non-disclosure agreement is in place).  It was like beating my head against a wall getting anyone senior to take notice until I did this.  And I am still a customer of theirs! 

 

I really hope to read of a successful outcome for those affected.  Good luck.

Thank you for that very helpful post - I hope it encourages more people to tackle P&O on this issue.  I set the thread up to enable dissatisfied customers to pool information and learn from each other.  Also to make it visible to P&O (and others) so that they realise the deep dissatisfaction over the issue.  I think it's achieving its aims, and I thank all contributors.

 

I'm sure you're right about the likely outcome - possibly before proceedings are commenced, but possibly after.  Non-disclosure agreements very likely - but who cares if the settlement is fair and reasonable.  It shouldn't be necessary to tackle P&O like this, but if that's the way they want to play it - so be it.

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We've been contacted by the Observer in response to an email my husband sent to Anna Tims (anna.tims@theguardian.com). Anyone wishing to seek compensation might want to also write to her and include details of when you booked, when you were advised of the change and any communication you've had with P&O about the change. I'm so pleased to see that this is still being discussed and that, like us, others aren't going to let P&O off without a damn good challenge.  

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Just now, SandraMeyer said:

We've been contacted by the Observer in response to an email my husband sent to Anna Tims (anna.tims@theguardian.com). Anyone wishing to seek compensation might want to also write to her and include details of when you booked, when you were advised of the change and any communication you've had with P&O about the change. I'm so pleased to see that this is still being discussed and that, like us, others aren't going to let P&O off without a damn good challenge.  

Just to clarify - I'm not suggesting the Observer are or have obtained compensation for us but we're pleased that a national newspaper seems to be taking an interest.

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Funnily enough just received an e-mail from one of the biggest, if not the biggest, TA for P&O Cruises business and they were special offers on up and coming cruises and 2 on Ventura N936 & N005 one offering overnight in port in Amsterdam and other Rotterdam but in brackets overnight in port Amsterdam, no mention of Ijmuiden.

Edited by majortom10

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5 hours ago, docco said:

Thank you for that very helpful post - I hope it encourages more people to tackle P&O on this issue.  I set the thread up to enable dissatisfied customers to pool information and learn from each other.  Also to make it visible to P&O (and others) so that they realise the deep dissatisfaction over the issue.  I think it's achieving its aims, and I thank all contributors.

 

I'm sure you're right about the likely outcome - possibly before proceedings are commenced, but possibly after.  Non-disclosure agreements very likely - but who cares if the settlement is fair and reasonable.  It shouldn't be necessary to tackle P&O like this, but if that's the way they want to play it - so be it.

 

14 hours ago, docco said:

I suppose they could take that line, but can you imagine the appalling publicity?  And would you really want to make any bookings with a company that took that approach?

 

Speaking as someone who will certainly take the court route if they don’t come up with a suitable offer, with or without a non-disclosure agreement, I’m already so disenchanted with the way P&O treats its customers that alternatives to cruising with them are becoming increasingly more appealing.

After this experience I wont be booking with a large cruise company again. It's my first and last. They might take advantage of me once but definitely not twice. We'll continue to seek compensation but all this hassle and feeling that my money is ALL that interests them, and not actually providing a good level of service, leaves a bad taste. 

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So it is just after the overnight closure of the locks for the installation of the new larger lock which will be opened in 2023. There will be a backlog of traffic wanting to enter the canal, so it seems not having cruise ships using the locks ill ease this backlog, and also mean that having to change a port due to the weather will not happen.

 

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For anyone interested, I've pasted ABTA's response to the complaint below.  Not altogether surprising, since ABTA exists to support its member companies (who pay for it to exist) - not look after their customers.  They've clearly had a response from P&O showing their viewpoint, and just gone along with it to keep their member happy.

 

Needless to say, I completely reject this 'significant alteration' argument, and I'm very confident that a county court judge will also reject it - what they're doing changes the whole nature of the cruise, and to argue that the change isn't significant is patent nonsense.  So much for ABTA - I think we all now know where they stand if one of their members is the subject of a complaint.

 

Thank you for contacting ABTA. We’re sorry to learn of your complaint against our Member. 

We’ve studied the contents of your complaint carefully, and feel that the company does not appear to have breached our Code of Conduct. Docking 40/45 minutes away would not be regarded as a significant alteration to your booking so compensation would not be due. Should you wish to cancel, this will be in line with their terms and conditions.

Your contract with the company is covered by the booking conditions. These set out the rights and obligations of you both in respect of the booking. 

If you do want to continue with your case, we would strongly recommend that you seek independent advice, for instance from a solicitor, or the Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline (Tel: 0345 404 0506), as we cannot advise you on your chance of success. 

We hope that this clarifies the position of ABTA.

Regards
ABTA Customer Support Team

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i have also complained direct to ABTA and their response is word for word the same, seems very strange?

Edited by johnrp
grammer

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