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2 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

Why would you resent each other? One flew in Business Class, the other has a better beverage card, an one tells about his condo in Manhattan. 

Anyway, as long as there are insides and balconies, and midships and aft, there will always be a "class system" and I wouldn't know what ships could do about that.

There is one big difference, the implementation of the Ship within a ship as implemented by Celebrity has reduced the amount of public space available to the passengers not in that class.  So it has negatively impacted the value to the remaining passengers.  As a result Celebrity does not have the same value, for non-suite passengers as it did prior to making that change.

 

With an airplane ticket nothing gets taken away from the economy class passenger due to the implementation of business class, if the plane was entirely economy the seat spacing would be exactly the same for those passengers.  An airline equivalent would be for an airline to decide that only business class passengers could use the seats near the gate. That would be a change that would negatively impact economy passengers.

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47 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Here is my view, which may or may not reflect reality but it is the way we have always felt as long-time cruisers.

 

Traditionally on leisure cruises (not talking about the ocean liners of old...) people paid for different categories of cabins according to their wishes and means, but once you stepped out of your cabin, for the most part everyone was on equal footing.  There were no spaces where one "class" had exclusive access and other classes did not. There were no special reserved decks or pool areas for suites, nor any reserved seating at shows and certainly not a private dining room. Even when specialty restaurants were introduced later in the game, everyone had an equal shot at booking them --- suites for example did not get priority. We were often in the lower echelons by cabin type, but always felt upon leaving our cabin that we received equal treatment, food, entertainment and access to public space as every other passenger.

 

Many lines are changing this paradigm now. 

 

(I don't include loyalty events -- for the most part a luncheon or a cocktail event -- as indicative of a difference in treatment but as a small recognition of loyalty...you get to participate whether your 100 days were in a suite or in an inside cabin.)

Exactly.  Celebrity was our first choice prior to those changes, but no longer.

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On 3/14/2019 at 9:35 PM, RDC1 said:

If you consider that being able to reduce the rate of fare increase is a form of lower passenger costs, then yes.

 

I would suspect that the change is as much if not more related to the impact of the additional entrees on staff workload and dining room/kitchen flow as much as it has to do with food waste. That is why they are targeting the MDR and not the buffet.

 

Every additional entree has to be plated, transferred, served, cleared, etc. All of that impacts the serving staff and the kitchen, especially if they are served one after another.  

I suppose you are right but I suspect that HAL is not going to pass the $10 down to the people who actually perform the extra work.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, kevingastreich said:

I suppose you are right but I suspect that HAL is not going to pass the $10 down to the people who actually perform the extra work.

The intent is probably not to collect the $10, but is instead to reduce the ordering of extra.

Edited by RDC1

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12 minutes ago, RDC1 said:

The intent is probably not to collect the $10, but is instead to reduce the ordering of extra.

 

I disagree. I think it's a money grab. If they cared about wasted food, they would be looking at the Lido.

 

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9 minutes ago, RDC1 said:

The intent is probably not to collect the $10, but is instead to reduce the ordering of extra.

 

Sorry but I don’t swallow that corporate line for a 2nd.
 

Not one iota of it and I feel for passengers that are on cruises (including a very pricey one) that have been hit this by surprise.

 

What’s next?  A $10 surcharge for my additional order of escargot?

 

I am not a big eater but I will sometime forfeit my filet (we at in the PG) and get an extra lobster tail IF they are good.  Last couple of cruises they were but $10 when it’s the only time I want something extra other than escargots?  

 

I pay plenty on my cruise and don’t begrudge a dime - but this I do begrudge and frankly, it will leave a very bad taste in my mouth if it does.  JMVHO

 

 

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9 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I disagree. I think it's a money grab. If they cared about wasted food, they would be looking at the Lido.

 

As I mentioned above I suspect the issue has as much if not more to do with the labor, and work flow of the dining room than food wastage.  Unlike Lido, every additional Entree has to be ordered, plate, served and cleared. Especially if served sequentially. 

 

In the Lido not amount taken of any item does not really impact workload.

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There has never been a problem with the "work flow of the dining room" on any of the many HAL cruises we have been on (5 star), where additional entrees have been offered ("try some of ..."). I cannot say if it was a labour problem, yet there is no evidence of this, especially again as the servers did not discourage but often encouraged the practice of a second entrée, or more of the favoured entrée.

 

Despite all the attempts to justify this "trial practice", in my view it is still wrong, wrong, wrong, for the many reasons listed on all these pages. I hope that the trial ends and this fades away.   

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On 3/15/2019 at 12:24 PM, Hawaiidan said:

Perdon.....TROISGROS.......in Oches now   France

 

One other difference is Troigros .... and friends ... do not serve breakfast, lunch, dinner, late buffet, snacks and special event catering all in the same day. And then do it all over again every day of the week. Phew. 

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On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 2:12 PM, RDC1 said:

With an airplane ticket nothing gets taken away from the economy class passenger due to the implementation of business class, if the plane was entirely economy the seat spacing would be exactly the same for those passengers.  An airline equivalent would be for an airline to decide that only business class passengers could use the seats near the gate. That would be a change that would negatively impact economy passengers.

I might be tempted to agree with you somewhat on your assertions. But the airline seat analogy is flat wrong. The addition of first class or/and business class does take away certain amenities for coach passengers. For instance, on many Boeing 737-800s, first class passengers have one restroom for 12 passengers. Providing that eliminated 30 coach seats, which meant an effective reduction of 20 coach seats, but even then the remaining coach seats have to share the rear cabin restrooms, which averages almost 3 passengers more per lavatory using the rear lavatories than before the addition of first.
 
Best example of this was the old Boeing 747-100s, when they added both first and business class and closed off forward restrooms to coach. Not only that, shoving the coach seats closer together placed many of them out of original alignment with the windows so some, once window coach seats, had no window anymore but a cabin wall

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HAL has a new VP Food and Beverage, he is young, Dutch and he comes from NCL. Started out as a waiter with HAL though...

 

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2 hours ago, Despegue said:

HAL has a new VP Food and Beverage, he is young, Dutch and he comes from NCL. Started out as a waiter with HAL though...

 

Well that explains it all, NCL is synonymous with Nickel and Dimming it's product.

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4 hours ago, Despegue said:

HAL has a new VP Food and Beverage, he is young, Dutch and he comes from NCL. Started out as a waiter with HAL though...

 

 

Interesting.

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6 hours ago, kennicott said:
I might be tempted to agree with you somewhat on your assertions. But the airline seat analogy is flat wrong. The addition of first class or/and business class does take away certain amenities for coach passengers. For instance, on many Boeing 737-800s, first class passengers have one restroom for 12 passengers. Providing that eliminated 30 coach seats, which meant an effective reduction of 20 coach seats, but even then the remaining coach seats have to share the rear cabin restrooms, which averages almost 3 passengers more per lavatory using the rear lavatories than before the addition of first.
 
Best example of this was the old Boeing 747-100s, when they added both first and business class and closed off forward restrooms to coach. Not only that, shoving the coach seats closer together placed many of them out of original alignment with the windows so some, once window coach seats, had no window anymore but a cabin wall

not quite. go to any airline that only serves coach. Jet blue for example the ratio of restrooms for economy there is the same as for airlines that have business class. the airlines add additional restrooms when they add a business class section. so nothing is taken away.

 

the reason for the misalignment is due to the airlines reducing seat spacing. that was done independent of first or business. it used to be most us airlines had 33 inch economy spacing now it is 31. they set seat spacing by class. they did not say we put in 10 business class seats so we have to squeeze the rest of the plane to fit them in.

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Posted (edited)

Do you know a good rule of thumb to tell if a cruise line is ruining their product? 

 

People that use the product draw parallels and comparisons to business air travel, generally these days a miserable experience and loaded with nickel and dime fees (since the airlines know most of these items get expensed anyways).  

 

Is that what an upper end luxury floating resort company wants to be seen as?  

Edited by LMaxwell

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10 minutes ago, LMaxwell said:

Do you know a good rule of thumb to tell if a cruise line is ruining their product? 

 

People that use the product draw parallels and comparisons to business air travel, generally these days a miserable experience and loaded with nickel and dime fees (since the airlines know most of these items get expensed anyways).  

 

Is that what an upper end luxury floating resort company wants to be seen as?  

airlines are actually better in that when you buy a economy seat you know you are getting a 31 inch pitch seat  and when you buy international business class that you are getting a lie flat seat (whatever is standard for that airline).

 

on some cruise lines what was public space one year is a private lounge the next.

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3 minutes ago, RDC1 said:

airlines are actually better in that when you buy a economy seat you know you are getting a 31 inch pitch seat  and when you buy international business class that you are getting a lie flat seat (whatever is standard for that airline).

 

on some cruise lines what was public space one year is a private lounge the next.

 

The point being that if you are comparing cruise to airline, the game is already being lost 

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7 hours ago, LMaxwell said:

Do you know a good rule of thumb to tell if a cruise line is ruining their product? 

 

People that use the product draw parallels and comparisons to business air travel, generally these days a miserable experience and loaded with nickel and dime fees (since the airlines know most of these items get expensed anyways).  

 

Is that what an upper end luxury floating resort company wants to be seen as?  

I agree with you . I think this $10 fee is foolish and harms their own brand .  My slight quibble is your use of the word luxury . HAL is mass market . Perhaps a touch above NCL and Carnival but on par with Princess, RC and Celebrity . It is not luxury, certainly not anytime in the recent past . 

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I got to thinking about this (again...).   I decided to do some math and my estimates may be off, but I thought this would be a good start anyway.   Let's say 100 people order an extra entree in one night.   That's 100 x $10 = $1,000.   So, on a seven day cruise that would be $1,000 x 7 = $7,000.   Ok, that sounds like a lot of money so let's take this one step farther.   There are 1052 rooms on Eurodam, so let's take that $7,000 and divide it by 1052 which equates to $6.65 per cabin. 

 

To think this has an impact on cruise prices doesn't make sense.  Even if I was way off on my estimate of how many people would order an extra entree it still doesn't pencil out on keeping cabin prices any less expensive.    Even if 500 people ordered an extra entree it would be 500 x $10 =$5,000 per day.  $5,000 x 7 = $40,000.   Making that $38.02 per cabin.   

 

As far as the food waste.   I think as long as people cruise unfortunately there will be food wastage.  Whether it is in the Lido, the MDR, the Dive, or any of the Specialty Dining rooms.....Maybe a few reminders in fine print stating something like "Please consider before you order as HAL is making a concerted effort to reduce waste thus helping the environment....yada yada".    Sometimes people just need to be educated (and some will never be educated).    Kind of the same technique like the signs in your bathroom regarding using your towels more than once.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, cruzin4us said:

I got to thinking about this (again...).

Shame on you !

But since you are ,shouldn't you be using the cost of the extra entree instead of the $10 fee. Perhaps $5 cost ? Now figure one in 500 cancel their next HAL cruise (and the next one after) because this foolishness . Hmmm .

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I may be changing the direction of this thread, but I just spoke to ship services (putting in a request for fruit soups on an upcoming cruise), and the agent I spoke with said that no other person had complained about the elimination of daily fruit soups at dinner.  I can't quite fathom that no one besides me would complain about that, but okay.  She said they have no way to track complaints, except by phone.  It appears that when one of us calls Seattle and complains to ship services it's tracked on computer.  According to this lady, if they get enough complaints about something, they take action.  Hey, guys, don't rain down on me, I'm the messenger, just repeating what she said.  So, I'm wondering what happens to the surveys and/or our letters.  Does anyone pay attention to the complaints in those two communication methods?  Apparently not.

 

So my advice: flood ship services via phone calls if you dislike the $10 charge for 2nd entrée.  She explained that HA has determined that there is too much waste in the MDR with passengers ordering one of everything (never saw this on previous cruises, but maybe I'm not that observant) and only taking a bite of each dish.  Passing along the information. 

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15 hours ago, Despegue said:

HAL has a new VP Food and Beverage, he is young, Dutch and he comes from NCL.

 

And, that is exactly the source of where the current changes in the wine lists and pricing, wine/glass pricing, lackluster menu offerings on NS's Caribbean cruises, no more denominated beverage cards,  and this extra charge "trial balloon" is coming.  I heard from my Wine Steward as well as two bartenders on the NS that a new head honcho in Seattle was the cause of the changes  I was not aware that he has some NCL "nickel and diming" heritage.

 

Thanks to my subscription to Cruise Industry News, I know this gentleman's name.  Time to write some specific snail mail letters to him with cc's to some selected others in the corporate structure.  

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10 minutes ago, sevenseasnomad said:

She said they have no way to track complaints, except by phone.  It appears that when one of us calls Seattle and complains to ship services it's tracked on computer. 

 Surely call.  But, also write and send snail mail letters to the appropriate individuals.

 

I was so upset when Carnival Cruise Lines eliminated their cruise brochure that I mailed a letter to the VP of Marketing for Carnival Cruise Lines in Miami with cc's to Mr. Arison, and the Lead Director of Carnival Corporation (as a shareholder, I have a right to do so), and the President of Carnival Cruise Lines.  My letter may have "shook a tree" because I did get a response from the VP of Marketing with the message that the elimination of the brochure was "under review".  His letter was a personal letter that he was "directed" to send to me.  (I have no doubt that others in the travel business offered their negative comments as well when CCL competitors were--and are--still publishing hard copy brochures.)  The hard copy brochures did re-appear.  For awhile; now gone as far as I know.  But, I was encouraged that "the corporate powers" do listen.  At least, for awhile.

 

An old cliche:  The Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease".  

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I contacted Holland America because this seemed so weird to me. I don't really eat the appetizers and instead eat 2  protein and 2 veg. and I have always done that so I was surprised by the post. My son is going on his first cruise and that man eats 8000 calories a day because he is an athlete. That is a whole lot of appetizers he'd have to eat. I wouldn't exactly mind paying the upcharge, but I wanted to know if it was something we should expect. Holland says it is a trial they are running for the month of March "to see if guests prefer that" and they "based on guest feedback they don't anticipate continuing after March." It made me laugh to imagine guest who would prefer that. "oh yes, please charge me more for something that used to be free" At any rate, it sounds like it will end in March

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4 hours ago, Peckishpixie said:

 Holland says it is a trial they are running for the month of March "to see if guests prefer that" and they "based on guest feedback they don't anticipate continuing after March." It made me laugh to imagine guest who would prefer that. "oh yes, please charge me more for something that used to be free" At any rate, it sounds like it will end in March

 

a) I agree that nobody will prefer the charge.

b) Very few who pay it will probably complain, thus making the trial period a success.

c) On most cruises, a significant percentage of passengers are new to cruising or new to HAL. They would think the charge is normal and thus have no reason to complain.

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