Just off Symphony..Health Violations in Chops followed by Norovirus

[Mikew0805]

1 hour ago, Ocean Boy said:

What part don't you get? You neither examined the patient nor reviewed the medical record. In fact, you know no facts including what the patient was actually treated with but you know the treatment probably made things worse. With everything you don't know you have no problem second guessing the medical people who were there. Oh but yeah, I forgot, you worked in the medical field. I would have expected a post like yours from someone who did not.

Yeah, but I asked that question as well because the OP made it sound like she was treated for Noro, with ABX. I think it was really just a curiosity question. I know the poster you responded to was a bit more aggressive in their comment, especially with the follow up comment. Either way, I didn't mean for my question to be accusatory. It really was just a question.

[sdpete]

On 3/11/2019 at 8:13 AM, Allaboutsailingrc said:

I was on this cruise. Never heard one word about any illness/norovirus. I was impressed by the many hand washing stations. Also dined at Chops and did not see any health violations. It was a fantastic and amazing cruise.

Same here.  Went to Chops twice and did not get sick.  Great cruise.  Sorry to hear about the illness.

Edited March 13, 2019 by sdpete
spelling

[Ocean Boy]

7 hours ago, xpcdoojk said:

 

OB welcome to CC... where the uninformed and the malinformed post like they are the final answer.

 

I worry more about the latter than the earlier.

 

jc

Both types are like chum in the water for the shark species called lawyers.

[QueenofKrakatoa]

9 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

What part don't you get? You neither examined the patient nor reviewed the medical record. In fact, you know no facts including what the patient was actually treated with but you know the treatment probably made things worse. With everything you don't know you have no problem second guessing the medical people who were there. Oh but yeah, I forgot, you worked in the medical field. I would have expected a post like yours from someone who did not.

Lol you need to do some basic research, buddy.

[johnjen]

This story has gotten me wondering about stacking of plates. I've seen "plate rings" on my mashed potatoes and dinner a few times, is stacking of plates common? If so, this is disgusting to think they would do such a thing, especially since the bottom of plates is where hands end up. Further, we've all come to realize that touching of elevator buttons and hand rails is a leading cause of spreading and getting norovirus - but I would think the cruise lines would stop stacking plates of food being prepared to serve to guests.

 

Who would we write to or let our concerns be heard about plate stacking of food being served?

[leisuretraveler223]

10 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

What part don't you get? You neither examined the patient nor reviewed the medical record. In fact, you know no facts including what the patient was actually treated with but you know the treatment probably made things worse. With everything you don't know you have no problem second guessing the medical people who were there. Oh but yeah, I forgot, you worked in the medical field. I would have expected a post like yours from someone who did not.

 

I don't think anyone here is in any way intimating that they have more knowledge of the patient/individual than what the OP provided.  HOWEVER, the OP essentially stated that someone had Noro and they got antibiotics.  That is patently WRONG.  Either there is more to the story, or the individual received inappropriate care.  That's not open to debate.  

 

I will concede openly that perhaps there IS more to the story.  But the OP hasn't shared that.  The OP did share "Noro" and "antibiotics"  and that is what people are calling out.  We need to stop perpetuating the wrong thought process that people need antibiotics.

[Ocean Boy]

34 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

I don't think anyone here is in any way intimating that they have more knowledge of the patient/individual than what the OP provided.  HOWEVER, the OP essentially stated that someone had Noro and they got antibiotics.  That is patently WRONG.  Either there is more to the story, or the individual received inappropriate care.  That's not open to debate.  

 

I will concede openly that perhaps there IS more to the story.  But the OP hasn't shared that.  The OP did share "Noro" and "antibiotics"  and that is what people are calling out.  We need to stop perpetuating the wrong thought process that people need antibiotics.

What we need to stop perpetuating are people assessing and making judgements about medical care without all the facts.

[leisuretraveler223]

1 minute ago, Ocean Boy said:

What we need to stop perpetuating are people assessing and making judgements about medical care without all the facts.

 

Then maybe we need people to stop sharing medical stories that are either incomplete or inaccurate. 

[leisuretraveler223]

On 3/10/2019 at 8:59 PM, azkcruizers said:

33 hours later my Mom woke up with violent diarrhea and vomiting.  It was four hours before I could even get her out of the bathroom and call for medical to come and get her.  She was diagnosed with norovirus and dehydration.  She stayed for iv fluids and some testing due to other health conditions then released to her room and in isolation.  I mentioned my Mom is 83 and uses a wheelchair which means that in this condition someone had to be with her for most of the time.  She was released the next day from isolation but still unable to leave the room or eat much due to the illness.  Then next day she did get to watch a show but was just exhausted and not herself.  At 2am the following morning the vicious cycle started again.  I got her to the medical center and back on iv and antibiotics this time.

 

If someone is going to give this detailed a description of someone's illness, it is ENTIRELY reasonable to comment, question or react.

 

The OP could've easily said her mother ended up sick requiring multiple medical visits and all would be fine.  But she attempted to give a comprehensive history.  If not for people to read and process, then why?

[Ocean Boy]

4 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

If someone is going to give this detailed a description of someone's illness, it is ENTIRELY reasonable to comment, question or react.

 

The OP could've easily said her mother ended up sick requiring multiple medical visits and all would be fine.  But she attempted to give a comprehensive history.  If not for people to read and process, then why?

You really think the Op's diatribe was about obtaining comments about the medical care her mother received? My take is that it was about the food handling process on the ship but I am not a mind reader so maybe you are right.

[leisuretraveler223]

2 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

You really think the Op's diatribe was about obtaining comments about the medical care her mother received? My take is that it was about the food handling process on the ship but I am not a mind reader so maybe you are right.

 

I agree. Her focus was the food handling. But she did offer up a very detailed description of the illness.  I accept when I post something here that all are more than welcome to react and comment.  If not for public comment, then leave it out.

 

People are going off on others for commenting on the described medical incident and care.  It is absurd for anyone to insinuate that the above description from the OP is somehow "off limits" for people to comment on.  Literally NOTHING that gets posted here is or should be "off limits".  If it is, it shouldn't be shared in the first place.

[Ocean Boy]

20 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

I agree. Her focus was the food handling. But she did offer up a very detailed description of the illness.  I accept when I post something here that all are more than welcome to react and comment.  If not for public comment, then leave it out.

 

People are going off on others for commenting on the described medical incident and care.  It is absurd for anyone to insinuate that the above description from the OP is somehow "off limits" for people to comment on.  Literally NOTHING that gets posted here is or should be "off limits".  If it is, it shouldn't be shared in the first place.

No argument from me on your post. I guess I would hate for someone to judge my medical care of a patient without considering my imput, or reviewing the medical record, first. I get a bit touchy about that. And I would certainly hope for that courtesy from people who are part of the medical / nursing profession. They should be more aware of the issues with practicing medicine than the typical lay person.

[mayleeman]

@Ocean Boy

My own comment was about the overuse of antibiotics by doctors in general because the description mentioned testing for other issues but no diagnosis except noro.  As an example, the CDC suggests that 90% of "strep" cases treated with antibiotics do not require, or benefit from, antibiotics because they are colds, flu, or the viral variant similar to strep. But I did allow for the possible prophylactic use for a weakened 83 year old who would likely be exposed to many more germs.

 

It is the unquestioned overprescribing of antibiotics by doctors that has helped create treatment resistant superbacteria, after all. Cautions against unnecessary prescriptions always seem in order.

Edited March 13, 2019 by mayleeman
clarification

[Paulette3028]

On 3/11/2019 at 6:53 AM, azkcruizers said:

......Meeting with people at Royal, I was apologized to, told these things would be fixed and no they definitely are not supposed to do those things at that table.  The words cross-contamination were used.  I was told they watched video.  I have been offered compensation of some sort but it is through headquarters and I'm supposed to hear from them.  I don't think I'm being dramatic.  Cruising several times a year, my son had norovirus on the Oasis just over a year ago.  I didn't complain to anyone nor ask for anything because of it.  This was a totally different situation.  

 

I hope I cleared any questions up from my original post.  Happy and healthy cruising to you.

It is interesting in this post that you as the OP bring up that your son had norovirus on the Oasis last year.   I am sure that experience showed you that Norovirus on a ship would not be happening to just one person.  It generally affects the crew as well as the cruisers.  Which brings me to wonder if your mom's illness was something different and had nothing to do acquiring the cause of the illness onboard.  I know that isn't how you will want to look at it.

 

Writing what I just did, doesn't in any way mean that the Food and Beverage Manager and the Restaurant Managers directly should not be concerned with HOW food is being handled in the process of delivery to diners -- they SHOULD BE.  

 

If policies are not being followed properly that needs to be handled through supervision and retraining, if necessary.  

[leisuretraveler223]

40 minutes ago, mayleeman said:

90% of "strep" cases treated with antibiotics do not require, or benefit from, antibiotics because they are colds, flu, or the viral variant similar to strep.

 

What are you talking about?  Perhaps lay people inadvertently call any case of pharyngitis "strep".  But for me as a physician, or even the LEAST of my colleagues to use that term, we're likely going to have a rapid test or pcr for Group A strep that is positive.  This does not include "colds, flu or the viral variant similar to strep".

[leisuretraveler223]

22 minutes ago, Paulette3028 said:

Norovirus on a ship would not be happening to just one person.  It generally affects the crew as well as the cruisers.  Which brings me to wonder if your mom's illness was something different and had nothing to do acquiring the cause of the illness onboard.

 

Sure it can.  Where do you think Noro comes from?  One person can have it and not spread it.  It's not a certainty that it will always become widespread.

[leisuretraveler223]

1 hour ago, Ocean Boy said:

 I would hate for someone to judge my medical care of a patient without considering my imput, or reviewing the medical record, first. I get a bit touchy about that. And I would certainly hope for that courtesy from people who are part of the medical / nursing profession. 

 

Totally agree, and I feel the same way.  I suspect most of these stories are either incomplete or incorrect.  Even in the case here.  Did the woman really get "iv fluids and antibiotics"?  Or did she get iv fluids and some zofran?  I can hear the physician telling the family he's giving her something to help with the symptoms, and as many lay people do, they concluded it was antibiotics.

[mayleeman]

2 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

What are you talking about?  Perhaps lay people inadvertently call any case of pharyngitis "strep".  But for me as a physician, or even the LEAST of my colleagues to use that term, we're likely going to have a rapid test or pcr for Group A strep that is positive.  This does not include "colds, flu or the viral variant similar to strep".

You are right. I was rushing. I put "strep" in quotes because I meant cases where people seek antibiotics because they think they have it, and I should have said doctors who just prescribe it. There are many who don't give a test, and I have seen a number who prescribe antibiotics even when they tell the patients the test was negative. Sorry--not all doctors do that, obviously, and hopefully most don't! I had a doctor do that in late January, in fact, even after I asked why he was prescribing an antibiotic for a virus. He got mad and left the room. I went elsewhere.

[HBE4]

3 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

Totally agree, and I feel the same way.  I suspect most of these stories are either incomplete or incorrect.  Even in the case here.  Did the woman really get "iv fluids and antibiotics"?  Or did she get iv fluids and some zofran?  I can hear the physician telling the family he's giving her something to help with the symptoms, and as many lay people do, they concluded it was antibiotics.

 

If you go back to your post where you quoted the OP (Post #109), she said her mother was treated for "other medical issues" as well. It's possible that is what the antibiotics were for.

 

And as those issues were outside the scope of the thread (food handling/Noro), perhaps she choose to not elaborate on those details.  No reason to call her out on it.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[leisuretraveler223]

2 minutes ago, HBE4 said:

 

If you go back to your post where you quoted the OP (Post #109), she said her mother was treated for "other medical issues" as well. It's possible that is what the antibiotics were for.

 

And as those issues were outside the scope of the thread (food handling/Noro), perhaps she choose to not elaborate on those details.  No reason to call her out on it.

 

 

I get that.  But all too often people claim that antibiotics are either used or indicated when they are in fact not.  I think you're always going to see people call this out, even if it's not what the OP intended.  It's important to constantly reaffirm that there is no role for antibiotics in Noro.

[HBE4]

8 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

I get that.  But all too often people claim that antibiotics are either used or indicated when they are in fact not.  I think you're always going to see people call this out, even if it's not what the OP intended.  It's important to constantly reaffirm that there is no role for antibiotics in Noro.

 

True. It was vaguely worded by the OP and left a lot open to interpretation. 

 

As you said, either give all the details or just a summary, not a combination of both. I guess I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt to reduce the wordiness (is that a word??) of the post.

 

[Paulette3028]

41 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

Sure it can.  Where do you think Noro comes from?  One person can have it and not spread it.  It's not a certainty that it will always become widespread.

Sure an infection can be contained with one person and not be spread.  However the OP is clearly pointing to the problem stemming from the way the wait staff was handling the plates/food service items. The OP is insinuating that 'cross contamination' came from the wait staff stations.  Cross contamination wouldn't have been limited to her plates.  If it was coming from that source, it would have been more widespread is my point of view.  

 

 

[leisuretraveler223]

9 minutes ago, Paulette3028 said:

Sure an infection can be contained with one person and not be spread.  However the OP is clearly pointing to the problem stemming from the way the wait staff was handling the plates/food service items. The OP is insinuating that 'cross contamination' came from the wait staff stations.  Cross contamination wouldn't have been limited to her plates.  If it was coming from that source, it would have been more widespread is my point of view.  

 

 

 

 

Okay, now I get it!  Good point.

[Joebucks]

I'm sorry to hear your mother got sick. That is definitely an unfortunate event that would ruin such a great family get together. The internet has a problem accepting claimed events as "facts" seeing that there are so many dramatic people out there. I think where you lost me was right in the beginning.

 

On the second night we went to Chops for our 8 pm.  dinner.  We were in the entranceway for at least 15-20 minutes waiting for our table. I found it funny that a couple of times a waiter walked through carrying plates of food that was going to be served.

 

I'm sorry, I cannot take anything after this seriously. You immediately found it funny that waiters were carrying food near the entrance? Has anyone else EVER thrown up a red flag from waiters carrying food before? Sounds to me like you were either looking for problems or just trying to throw every piece possible in this story to gain sympathy.

 

Then the picture painted is that there is just endless waves of dirty dishes piling up all around the food yet to be served. Meanwhile, people are watching in horror from afar as this Mount Everest of dishes is just impossible to avoid making eye-contact with. Then you silently warn that this better not affect your mother. Lo and behold, she's the only one sick. Therefore, it was because of a bottom of a norovirus dish came in close contact? Did the doctors even diagnose noro?

[schmeed]

Something else nobody has addressed (unless I missed it):  It's certainly possible that if cross-contamination did indeed occur and ALL of the plates were contaminated, that it could still have only been the mother who showed symptoms of norovirus due to her age and, expected weakened immune system.

Isn't it possible that everyone at the table ingested the virus, but only the elderly individual succumb to the sickness?