Federal Judge considers sanctions affecting Carnival that could affect cruises

[sfaaa]

8 hours ago, Atocha Shipwreck Gal said:

Prosecutors cited internal emails shared at Carnival’s brands discussing how to prepare for the audits. “It would be really important to go onboard on August 12 for one week in order to have time to manage issues before the audits and avoid findings,” said a 2017 internal email from Carnival’s German-based cruise line AIDA Cruises. A similar internal email from Carnival’s Seattle-based Holland America Line mentioned “prevent audit findings” as a goal in early 2018.

 

What is so wrong about this? Every indiviual and corporate citizen has the right to manage and prepare for an upcoming government audit before an auditor shows up. It is the auditor's job to find fault on the party being audited, not the other way around. 

[Cafedumonde]

Just another federal judge gone rogue.

[Chervil]

14 minutes ago, Micah's Grandad said:

Could be the judge wants the heads of Carnival in court so they can be hauled off to jail if they are in fact guilty.

Not sure if you are joking or not....
But I highly doubt the judge is going to clap them in irons right there and then.
Even if they are found guilty, then there would still be sentencing hearing. So they would get plenty of notification to show up for whatever sentence would be imposed.
Plus, a case like this is more likely to end in steep fines and sanctions (such as not allowing them to use US ports) rather than jail time for any of the beards.

 

More likely she just wants them to "respect the robe".

Whether that is because she feels they really aren't taking it seriously or because she wants the theatrics that come with them showing up personally in front of her, I don't know.
But I do know most people who run companies feel that is what they pay their lawyers and legal team for.
They are too busy to sit in court just so the judge can shake their finger at them in person.
(NOTE: I have a small business and would have no choice but to be there in person.)

 

From everything I have read, it seems like they did stop the main things they were being accused of, just started doing some new stuff that wasn't right.

[Micahs Grandad]

2 minutes ago, Chervil said:

Not sure if you are joking or not....
But I highly doubt the judge is going to clap them in irons right there and then.
Even if they are found guilty, then there would still be sentencing hearing. So they would get plenty of notification to show up for whatever sentence would be imposed.
Plus, a case like this is more likely to end in steep fines and sanctions (such as not allowing them to use US ports) rather than jail time for any of the beards.

 

More likely she just wants them to "respect the robe".

Whether that is because she feels they really aren't taking it seriously or because she wants the theatrics that come with them showing up personally in front of her, I don't know.
But I do know most people who run companies feel that is what they pay their lawyers and legal team for.
They are too busy to sit in court just so the judge can shake their finger at them in person.
(NOTE: I have a small business and would have no choice but to be there in person.)

 

From everything I have read, it seems like they did stop the main things they were being accused of, just started doing some new stuff that wasn't right.

A bit tongue in cheek but not totally. If this was done by people working for Carnival Corp the ones doing it should go to jail and the fellow in charge should join him.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, ontheweb said:

As a Carnival stockholder, that does not seem to be something to look forward to!

I should add that as a stockholder, it also bothers me that they put themselves in this position. Shame on those responsible.

[Organized Chaos]

5 hours ago, crewsweeper said:

Also, port authorities may argue against that stiff of a sentence fro the actions of a couple of Princess ships.

 

The actions of a couple Princess ships? This all stems from them dumping oil from Princess ships (plural) for 8 years. Then there's evidence to show they've been scheming to bypass the court-ordered audit system on their AIDA & Holland lines, at least. The auditors have discovered that Carnival and its subsidiaries have repeatedly falsified records, to include a Holland engineer who falsified maintenance records after he failed to clean and test equipment. Think about that for a second. Failing to perform proper maintenance, then lying about it. Depending on what kind of systems we're talking about here, that could possibly lead to endangering crew and/or passengers. The Elation, Sea Princess, Ruby Princess, and Dream were all caught dumping plastic overboard. Holland's Westerdam illegally dumped gray water into Glacier Bay. And the Conquest dumped ballast water into Bahamian waters. This is far from just "a couple of Princess ships."

 

As much as we enjoy Carnival's product, no company deserves to skate after numerous, serious violations like this. Especially considering the way they've apparently been acting about it. Not taking it seriously, looking for ways to cheat the systems put in place as a result of their illegal activity. Telling us they're getting rid of plastic straws and ink pens to help the environment while crew members on multiple ships are dumping plastic-filled food waste overboard. The list of their illegal actions & violations of court orders looks to be a long one. Since the fines and probation don't seem to have an affect, I hope the judge hits them hard enough to make them feel it and think twice about continuing this behavior.

[jimbo5544]

17 minutes ago, Micah's Grandad said:

A bit tongue in cheek but not totally. If this was done by people working for Carnival Corp the ones doing it should go to jail and the fellow in charge should join him.

Maybe we can wait on the sentencing a bit..............

[Micahs Grandad]

1 minute ago, jimbo5544 said:

Maybe we can wait on the sentencing a bit..............

True but notice the word "if" in my post.

 

After the 2008-2009 financial meltdown the CEO's of the banks that caused it should have spent some time in prison. Would be a reminder that the bucks stops with them.

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, Micah's Grandad said:

True but notice the word "if" in my post.

 

After the 2008-2009 financial meltdown the CEO's of the banks that caused it should have spent some time in prison. Would be a reminder that the bucks stops with them.

How many of them went to prison?

 

[Micahs Grandad]

15 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

How many of them went to prison?

 

I believe none

[jimbo5544]

Just now, Micah's Grandad said:

I believe none

....so if we take that logic where it cost the US economy billions of dollars, how many do you think will go for this example?

[chengkp75]

Okay, as someone who has worked for shipping companies that have fallen afoul of pollution violations, I can speak from experience.  One company was NCL, and one was a tanker company.  Both were found to have made questionable oily water discharges, and fraudulent record keeping regarding oily water discharges, and both were indicted by the DOJ and reached plea bargains that placed them on probation for several years, as well as fines (one company paid $37 millions in fines back in 2006, the highest fine ever in US history for vessel pollution), and one company's corporate officers pleaded guilty to felony charges and wore ankle monitors for 5 years or so while the company was on probation.

 

After Princess' fine in Alaska, which led to this probation, I find it despicable that the company continued to "work around" the issue, and give guidelines, while claiming to be "guidelines for passing the audits" were actually "how to cover up what you've done better".  The repeated instances of confirmed pollution, as well as continued shoddy documentation, shows that Carnival has not learned its lesson, and the corporate atmosphere has not changed.  Both of the companies that I mentioned above, have changed the corporate climate dramatically, and are held by the DOJ as models of environmental compliance, and one company's compliance plan is now held up as the model that all subsequent DOJ settlements have to meet.

 

Princess' fine was $40 million, and if the DOJ model still holds from a decade ago, a repeat offender can see a 10 fold increase in that fine, so $400 million, which I think would be a significant hit to Carnival.  It depends on the Princess plea bargain as to whether anyone goes to jail or not, for the continued violations.  Most of Princess' senior management who dealt with the issue were terminated to keep them from becoming felons, and new management brought in.

 

As to whether the court can bar Carnival ships from entering US waters, you bet.  Every country keeps a "blacklist" of ships that are not allowed to enter US waters.  This would be a drastic move, but it is decidedly possible.

 

While some issues are more serious than others:  plastic dumping is to me an extremely sensitive issue, dumping ballast water is somewhat less catastrophic (this deals with record keeping and "exchanging" ballast water when a ship travels from one area to another, as some sea life grows in the ballast tanks and can cause invasive species contamination to happen).  But, the fact that the violations happen over many different forms of environmental non-compliance shows a total disregard for environmental issues at the very top of the Corporation.

Edited April 11, 2019 by chengkp75

[lottiegreen56]

21 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Okay, as someone who has worked for shipping companies that have fallen afoul of pollution violations, I can speak from experience.  One company was NCL, and one was a tanker company.  Both were found to have made questionable oily water discharges, and fraudulent record keeping regarding oily water discharges, and both were indicted by the DOJ and reached plea bargains that placed them on probation for several years, as well as fines (one company paid $37 millions in fines back in 2006, the highest fine ever in US history for vessel pollution), and one company's corporate officers pleaded guilty to felony charges and wore ankle monitors for 5 years or so while the company was on probation.

 

After Princess' fine in Alaska, which led to this probation, I find it despicable that the company continued to "work around" the issue, and give guidelines, while claiming to be "guidelines for passing the audits" were actually "how to cover up what you've done better".  The repeated instances of confirmed pollution, as well as continued shoddy documentation, shows that Carnival has not learned its lesson, and the corporate atmosphere has not changed.  Both of the companies that I mentioned above, have changed the corporate climate dramatically, and are held by the DOJ as models of environmental compliance, and one company's compliance plan is now held up as the model that all subsequent DOJ settlements have to meet.

 

Princess' fine was $40 million, and if the DOJ model still holds from a decade ago, a repeat offender can see a 10 fold increase in that fine, so $400 million, which I think would be a significant hit to Carnival.  It depends on the Princess plea bargain as to whether anyone goes to jail or not, for the continued violations.  Most of Princess' senior management who dealt with the issue were terminated to keep them from becoming felons, and new management brought in.

 

As to whether the court can bar Carnival ships from entering US waters, you bet.  Every country keeps a "blacklist" of ships that are not allowed to enter US waters.  This would be a drastic move, but it is decidedly possible.

 

While some issues are more serious than others:  plastic dumping is to me an extremely sensitive issue, dumping ballast water is somewhat less catastrophic (this deals with record keeping and "exchanging" ballast water when a ship travels from one area to another, as some sea life grows in the ballast tanks and can cause invasive species contamination to happen).  But, the fact that the violations happen over many different forms of environmental non-compliance shows a total disregard for environmental issues at the very top of the Corporation.

 

 

I hope they throw the book at them, nothing worse than hypocrites

[jojonlolasmom]

I’m seriously upset about this, I’ve been looking forward to this trip. We’re supposed to go in August.  I hope they don’t ban them! 

[coaster]

Thank you Cheng for your post. I have been waiting for your take on all of this. You are such a tremendous resource here with your experience in the maritime industry. I recall NCL’s former SS Norway having a ‘magic pipe’ and a discharge log that was called the ‘fairy book’  when that ship was cited for violations similar to this. It is not fair when other lines are playing by the rules and absorbing the higher cost to comply with regulations. Glad to hear NCL learned from its mistakes years ago and is not a repeat offender.

Edited April 11, 2019 by coaster

[nybumpkin]

6 hours ago, msears101 said:

 

It can happen.  The judge can wield a lot of power.  They were found to have lied.  I have been following this before now. It is pretty serious.  The judge is livid.  The next appeals court might be more harsh.   They are very strict on lying an polluting.  They are in the Southern District of NY.  

Just an FYI, Judge Seitz is a senior judge in the Southern District of Florida, not New York.

[renza]

Yep that’s carnival for you. 

[Micahs Grandad]

After what Cheng has told us the management of Carnival should get to see what the inside of a prison looks like. What a bunch of hypocrites especially after the straw nonsense.

 

Will have to reconsider our choice of cruise lines.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Micah's Grandad

[jbethel11]

9 minutes ago, Micah's Grandad said:

After what Cheng has told us the management of Carnival should get to see what the inside of a prison looks like. What a bunch of hypocrites especially after the straw nonsense.

 

Will have to reconsider our choice of cruise lines.

I stay with Carnival because of their prices and what they offer. MSC is the only other company that can compete in terms of pricing, but in terms of food, in no way even comes close to Carnival. I am a little disappointed in Carnival, but have a cruise booked already. 

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, jbethel11 said:

I stay with Carnival because of their prices and what they offer. MSC is the only other company that can compete in terms of pricing, but in terms of food, in no way even comes close to Carnival. I am a little disappointed in Carnival, but have a cruise booked already. 

My guess is that at the end of the day, they will be financially poorer and some heads will roll (how far up will be interesting).

[coevan]

7 hours ago, msears101 said:

 

So it will happen in the future. I am guessing it will not be immediate.  It is typical to give time for an emergency appeal. It will also be temporary.  They will likely drop passengers off in the Bahamas, or Mexico or Canada and provide transportation to their final destination.

 

 

 

 

Are you assuming all Carnival guests have passports? There are many anti passport people on this board. 

[evandbob]

I would hope that these issues get widespread publicity and that Carnival has to pay hefty fines for polluting and covering it up. Those suits who created false records and "managed" the crisis should be jailed.

 

Every cruise I hear about "Carnival's commitment to the environment" during the safety muster drill.  I can remember decades ago when cruise ship employees were photographed throwing garbage off a ship's aft while cruising.  Seems the only thing that's changed is the darn PR about environmental responsibility.  What BS!

 

So many posters expressed concern about their future cruise, yet so few expressed concern about the oceans.  Polluting Glacier Bay?  How sad is that?  All Carnival branded ships should be banned from entering that preserve!

 

I have several cruises booked, but will seriously consider travelling to resorts once these are done.

Edited April 11, 2019 by evandbob

[coaster]

Throwing this out there for Cheng. You think jail time is warranted for some of the players involved in this? 

Edited April 11, 2019 by coaster

[chengkp75]

10 minutes ago, coaster said:

Throwing this out there for Cheng. You think jail time is warranted for some of the players involved in this? 

Very likely that onboard personnel will face some jail time, but I doubt any corporate types will go to jail.  If past results hold this time, the corporate types will plead guilty and become felons.  Some, if US citizens could be banned from management of shipping in the future.

[scoobikins]

5 hours ago, sfaaa said:

What is so wrong about this? Every indiviual and corporate citizen has the right to manage and prepare for an upcoming government audit before an auditor shows up. It is the auditor's job to find fault on the party being audited, not the other way around. 

Hospitals do this on an almost yearly basis, in preparation for Joint Commission. The only thing I can think is that they are saying they are 'scrubbing' their records in order to avoid getting cited.