Judge threatens to stop Carnival ships from docking In US

[Diver2014]

5 hours ago, MFR said:

Rather than thinking about how this may affect our own cruise plans, we should be thinking about whether we want to continue to give our money to a corporation that has su total disregard for the health of the world's oceans.   Who is willing to boycott CCL until they clean up their act?  

 

Not me......won't make any difference at all. Boycotts don't work.

[chengkp75]

Okay, I'll respond on this forum as well.  Yes, the judge can ban Carnival ships from even entering US waters, every country has a "black list" of ships that are not allowed entry, for various reasons.  It is not that they ticked off the judge, it may well be that this is one of the conditions of the Princess probation settlement.  If past settlements hold true, the DOJ tends to issue a 10 fold fine for a repeat offender, so Carnival could well be facing a $400 million fine.  This is a complete failure of corporate culture to accept environmental stewardship, since the violations range across the lines and across the spectrum of pollution types.  This is completely despicable, and Carnival deserves whatever the judge and/or DOJ hand out.

[MFR]

1 hour ago, Diver2014 said:

 

Not me......won't make any difference at all. Boycotts don't work.

Unfortunately,  you are probably right on that.  Still, there are some of us who must decide if we want to continue to patronize a corporation that is deliberately polluting the oceans.  We were just on Regal last week--they have an environmental officer.  Wondering what their role is--to look the other way?

[evandbob]

Carnival muster drills contain some feel good statements like "Carnival is a leader in environmental safety" which I guess now is just PR and BS.

 

They were cited for environmental crimes and placed on probation

 

They continued polluting while on probation

 

Execs sought to cover up and hide documents showing they knowingly and willingly engaged in falsification.

 

The execs dissed the overseeing judge by not even showing up for the last hearing.

 

Reminds me of the crimes the tobacco industry engaged in as well.

[Micahs Grandad]

6 minutes ago, evandbob said:

Carnival muster drills contain some feel good statements like "Carnival is a leader in environmental safety" which I guess now is just PR and BS.

 

They were cited for environmental crimes and placed on probation

 

They continued polluting while on probation

 

Execs sought to cover up and hide documents showing they knowingly and willingly engaged in falsification.

 

The execs dissed the overseeing judge by not even showing up for the last hearing.

 

Reminds me of the crimes the tobacco industry engaged in as well.

Cannot wait for their brand ambassador to tell us his spin on this. 

[Micahs Grandad]

6 hours ago, pms4104 said:

Yes  hou read correctly.

 

I believe the judge has made an idle threat

 

But, the fact remains that CCL and its subsidiaries must pay some significant price for thumbing their collective noses at moral and etbical behaviir, sdttling for that which is easy and illegal

 

You're right that tbe impact of such a ruling would be catastrophic for a lot of innocrnts.  

 

What should be the punishmrnt and restitution?  I haven't a clue but it must be such that there be an immediate reversal of corp behaviors

Sending senior management of Carnival to a federal prison for some period of time might cause a change in behavior.

[elliair]

10 hours ago, Coral said:

Sorry - I thought it was Princess's plan. I am guessing your trip will not be affected. Or at least hoping for you. I can't see a judge doing this. It would disrupt the economy too much.

You got that right.  If anything I see another heavy fine placed on CCL.  Cruising is a billion dollar industry.  Every service industry would be affected by a ban on any CCL ship coming into any US port.  This would devastate CCL for sure.

[Expat Cruise]

I look at this another way. Most of my cruising is outside US ports, so if this happen and the line was banned it could be a very good thing.  Princess would need to send ships to foreign ports like Asia, Australia, and Europe. This would result in lots of extra berths and much lower pricing. As a shareholder it would be a hit, as a non US cruiser it could be a windfall.

 

[elliair]

3 minutes ago, Expat Cruise said:

I look at this another way. Most of my cruising is outside US ports, so if this happen and the line was banned it could be a very good thing.  Princess would need to send ships to foreign ports like Asia, Australia, and Europe. This would result in lots of extra berths and much lower pricing. As a shareholder it would be a hit, as a non US cruiser it could be a windfall.

 

I won't go farther than 500 miles to catch a ship.  No way would I fly overseas EVER again to catch a ship.  Never again would I get on a plane for longer than 1 hour much less 15 hours and deal with their customs BS.  Good thing I'm not a shareholder too.

[DDG 41]

Let's hope its permanent and a similar punishment is put on RCI for their previous offences.

[Expat Cruise]

2 hours ago, elliair said:

I won't go farther than 500 miles to catch a ship.  No way would I fly overseas EVER again to catch a ship.  Never again would I get on a plane for longer than 1 hour much less 15 hours and deal with their customs BS.  Good thing I'm not a shareholder too.

Never said that US Guests would travel to these overseas areas if the line is banned from US ports, even if a short term ban. I am saying they will shift ships to these markets and draw non US Guests.   It would be a windfall for guests from Asia, Australia and Europe.

 

It would also mean higher prices for US Cruises as the demand on the other lines , still doing business would be great. It would change the US Cruise Market.

[GonzoWCS]

Following this.

[Loreni]

This is sad, sickening, and stupid.

 

The cruise industry is desperately trying to attract younger cruisers...even to the point of alienating their base.  Many young adults care deeply about the environment and many young adults strive to do business with corporations that reflect their values.  This will be a deal breaker for many.

 

Unless CCL is losing money and on the brink of bankruptcy and thus desperate to stay afloat, there is simply no excuse.  Last I checked, they were profitable.  So  to wring a bit more profit from the company, they pollute to ocean?

 

 

[Outhaul]

22 hours ago, msears101 said:

It is bad that this not listed in each of the cruise lines affected.  I am not sure why it is stripped away.  Yes this cruise news, but you allow threads like the Viking sky to stay in its forum.   People who are on Princess, Carnival, Cunard, Seabourn, (and more) should be able to discuss the impact to the cruise line.

Also interesting that the Cruise News section somehow fails to mention this story.  I appreciate that Cruise Critic is funded by cruise line adverts.  But still....

[Outhaul]

20 hours ago, msears101 said:

 

Read the fine print.  Many do not  cover ongoing litigation.  Just read, and make sure.

Good point on the litigation insurance coverage.  We have a December trip pending.  Many of the travel insurance companies have a premium class of coverage, which allows (usually 75%) reimbursement "for any reason" cancellation.  I am checking this out with the two travel insurance firms (C&F and Nationwide) we are considering.

[Outhaul]

21 hours ago, LauraS said:

We agree, which is why we left a permanent link on the Princess forum.   I'm copying this over to the Princess forum as well.

Appreciate your vigilance.  As a newbee to Cruise Critic (and cruising), did you also sticky link this to Holland America Lines.  I am not sure where sticky links show up; but if it's there, I am not smart eough to find the link.  Thanks.  

[elliair]

7 hours ago, Expat Cruise said:

Never said that US Guests would travel to these overseas areas if the line is banned from US ports, even if a short term ban. I am saying they will shift ships to these markets and draw non US Guests.   It would be a windfall for guests from Asia, Australia and Europe.

 

It would also mean higher prices for US Cruises as the demand on the other lines , still doing business would be great. It would change the US Cruise Market.

I never said that you said that US guests would travel to these overseas areas.  I was talking about myself.  If it would be a windfall for guests from Asia, Australia and Europe, I think CCL would have moved ALL their ships to those countries to get the "windfall" and tell the US to shove it.  There's far more cruise ships leaving USA ports than the overseas.  Follow the money.

[Expat Cruise]

It is now being reported that the judge has also threaten to jail members of the corporations management because these are criminal acts. 

 

Here is the list of ships the court says have violated environmental laws while Carnival Corporation was under court-supervised probation:

 

• Princess’ Sun Princess – an engineer falsified maintenance records in June 2017;
• HAL’s Nieuw Amsterdam had been continuously discharging gray water for several years in Alaska (as of June 2017) and knowingly failed to notify the state of Alaska;
• Carnival Valor – engineering team falsified an oil record book regarding the oily water separator system in October 2017;
• HAL’s Westerdam – a second engineer falsified maintenance records involving the oil content monitoring system in September 2018;
• Carnival Conquest illegally dumped 66,000 gallons of ballast water in November 2018 (in Bahamian archipelagic waters where Carnival ships previously made other unlawful discharges); the ship’s engineer offered to falsify records to make it look like the dump happened at open sea;
• Holland America’s Westerdam – illegally dumped 26,000 gallons of gray water into Glacier Bay National Park in Alaska in December 2018;
• Princess’ Sea Princess (December 2017) and Ruby Princess (February 2018), Carnival Dream (August 2018), and Carnival Elation (December 2018) dumped plastic overboard.

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article229069589.html

Edited April 12, 2019 by Expat Cruise

[Outhaul]

19 hours ago, Dani24 said:

 

I don't disagree at all. If Carnival/Princess doesn't appropriately address this it absolutely is something that would compel me to spend my vacation dollars elsewhere. That doesn't change the fact that I still have money currently tied up with them for a vacation in 3 months. I can be both concerned about losing out on nearly $10k/losing out on our vacation AND the long term ramifications of Carnival/Princess's actions outside of our trip. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Dani24:  I agree with your disagreement.  This is more than an incident in Glacier Bay.  It is the ongoing falsification of records and willful illegal dumping of oil, gray water, plastics, etc. WHILE UNDER PROBATION as part of a $40 million settlement for prior violations of maritime environmental regulations. he company, of course, states that environmental regulations are, and continue to be, its highest priority.  This is an old trope;  every company always states that whatever it was supposed to do that it was caught not doing is its highest priority. 

[Host CJSKIDS]

So as not to have copyright issues, perhaps everyone could put the link to the actual stories rather than cut & paste!!

[Expat Cruise]

24 minutes ago, elliair said:

I never said that you said that US guests would travel to these overseas areas.  I was talking about myself.  If it would be a windfall for guests from Asia, Australia and Europe, I think CCL would have moved ALL their ships to those countries to get the "windfall" and tell the US to shove it.  There's far more cruise ships leaving USA ports than the overseas.  Follow the money.

If you follow the money you need to leave the United States. The CLIA reports  North America accounted for 49 percent of the 26.75 million global cruise passengers with 13.12 million passengers.  (2017 last year reported).

 

The statement about far more cruises leaving USA port is not really correct. If the United States is 49% then the rest of the World is 51% so yes follow the money more cruise business outside the Untied States. Full report can be found here:  https://cruising.org/-/media/CLIA/Research/Global 2018 EIS

[Iamcruzin]

1 hour ago, Outhaul said:

Also interesting that the Cruise News section somehow fails to mention this story.  I appreciate that Cruise Critic is funded by cruise line adverts.  But still....

My wife heard it on NBC morning news this morning but it was a quick mention and it only mentioned Carnival so I didn't know if it was Carnival Corp or Carnival cruise line. I came here for clarification.

[USCcruisecrazy]

Expat Cruise...thanks for actually posting the article from the Miami Herald.  Of course, some of the wording I saw included "possibly violating probation" and "Mischaracterizations made by others to the court" and "federal prosecutors allege".  My point is that we shouldn't convict someone in the media...but let the courts do their due diligence.  We have enough of guilty until proven innocent garbage going around these days.  In addition, much of this seems to be based on an internal memo that explains "How to prepare for an audit".  I don't know about anyone else, but in our industry, sharing that sort of information is not only condoned, it's expected.  It's not illegal to share strategies to meet requirements.  Anyway, I sure hope this doesn't effect the industry in a negative way....like higher costs to the consumers.

[c-boy]

10 hours ago, elliair said:

I won't go farther than 500 miles to catch a ship.  No way would I fly overseas EVER again to catch a ship.  Never again would I get on a plane for longer than 1 hour much less 15 hours and deal with their customs BS.  Good thing I'm not a shareholder too.

well alrighty then , good to know

[Musky Ike]

And yet CCL is up yesterday and so far today.