Judge threatens to stop Carnival ships from docking In US

[elliair]

20 hours ago, Thrak said:

 

Just like the other industries I mentioned break the law and don't give a damn unless they get caught. I'm not in favor of any of them breaking the law and polluting but I won't be getting all self-righteous about one industry while ignoring the flaws of others.

 

As for a pending "ban" of ships being allowed to port in the US... I'm not at all certain the judge has the legal authority to make a ruling that would have such a catastrophic impact on so many other businesses and so many people's livelihood. Even if the judge did make such an incredibly damaging (to the US economy) decision I'm certain it would be appealed and I highly doubt any "ban" would be enforced while the appeal was in progress. It seems that judges, like some politicians, are prone to make sweeping threats that they will be unable to carry out in the real world.

 

Dang, I was doing so well at leaving this thread alone until now.

No keep going Thrak you're doing GREAT!  I gave you a thumbs up because everything you said is spot on.  I won't book an aft balcony cabin due to the fact that we've had black soot from the ships funnel drift down into our balcony.  Couldn't  even enjoy sitting out there without hacking and coughing.  We said nothing about it to Princess, and we never booked another aft.  Lessons learned.

[elliair]

10 hours ago, USCcruisecrazy said:

I, too, lived for years in Alaska.   If anyone believes that Alaska Tourism will not be severely hurt by losing out on the tens of thousands of cruise ship tourists spending dollars in their communities, you need to re-evaluate.  Two things Alaskans depend on for maintaining their standard of living...the fishing industry and tourism!  

The largest employer in Alaska is the government.  However, business owners close up shop in the off season and return during the cruise season.  Lots of college students make their way to Alaska as guides to earn money to continue their college.  The judge can think about all the people it would hurt, and Thrak is right, I don't believe the federal judge has that kind of authority.  Judgements like that can be quickly over turned in a higher court.

[caribill]

3 hours ago, elliair said:

No keep going Thrak you're doing GREAT!  I gave you a thumbs up because everything you said is spot on.  I won't book an aft balcony cabin due to the fact that we've had black soot from the ships funnel drift down into our balcony.  Couldn't  even enjoy sitting out there without hacking and coughing.  We said nothing about it to Princess, and we never booked another aft.  Lessons learned.

 

It is an environmental thing.

 

Instead of having the black soot fall into the ocean, it is deposited onto your balcony. Your contribution to a cleaner ocean.

 

[Expat Cruise]

21 hours ago, caribill said:

Carnival Corp brands have 19 ships in Alaska this summer. Loss of all those cruisers would really hurt many in the Alaska tourist industry.

 

And of course the vacation plans for close to a million booked passengers would go up in smoke.

Do you really think the market would allow those guests to just sit out the season? That would not happen, prices would go up on cruises and other lines would see the value to more ships into the market to cover the shortage of ships.  We do not pick how to enforce laws in the United States based upon cost. justice in our country is blind, it does not make rulings based upon costs.

 

[DDG 41]

29 minutes ago, Expat Cruise said:

Do you really think the market would allow those guests to just sit out the season? That would not happen, prices would go up on cruises and other lines would see the value to more ships into the market to cover the shortage of ships.  We do not pick how to enforce laws in the United States based upon cost. justice in our country is blind, it does not make rulings based upon costs.

  

Ships have schedules for a reason If the Judge does impose companies will not have enough time to reposition ships there. Also by the time they can position ships there, Carnival's TEMPORARY ban will be over. Also decisions in laws are often made upon costs and the overall affect on the people. It may be different in the Philippines but most decisions are made to affect the company not the people who use  the company.

[Expat Cruise]

1 minute ago, DDG 41 said:

Ships have schedules for a reason If the Judge does impose companies will not have enough time to reposition ships there. Also by the time they can position ships there, Carnival's TEMPORARY ban will be over. Also decisions in laws are often made upon costs and the overall affect on the people. It may be different in the Philippines but most decisions are made to affect the company not the people who use  the company.

While I may live in  the Philippines I am still a US Citizen and did business within the United States, my MBA is from Boston, so I know exactly how things are done.

 

Carnival has  already been found guilty of the crimes the Corporation was charge with now they are in violation of  the Probation they agreed to. Does not matter who gets hurt here the law is very clear. The judge can add move fines, can banned them from doing business, or can jail members of the Corporation or any combination wanted. 

 

The time for deals here is long over, like anyone or any company that violates probation it is now only a matter of what the judge wants to do.  It is all within the hands of the judge.

[Cruiserkenn]

6 hours ago, oskidunker said:

Hopefully they did not throw the barrel chairs into the ocean. 

 

Thanks for this moment of humor during this otherwise depressing subject.

 

i love those barrel chairs!   🙂⛴🐋😉🐟🐳🐬🌝🛳⚓️🚢🌅🌈

[MissP22]

On 4/15/2019 at 11:08 PM, schlogee said:

And this is what is wrong with our country - assuming that only a select few "non-normal" people in CA would even care about the environment.  I am terribly upset by this, and this is going to put a damper on my cruise this summer (for which we just finished final payment a week ago - so too late to cancel). I will probably not be cruising again - not because I think it will impact the cruise lines, because I know it won't, thanks to all you "normal" people - but because I don't want to be contributing to the harm they are doing to our precious natural resources. I really do enjoy cruising, so this is bumming me out 😞

If you truly cared about the environment you wouldn't be cruising at all.

Not that it would do much good in the overall scheme of things but it might make you feel as though you did something. 

[bemis12]

7 hours ago, jwattle said:

Is there any thread that doesn't lead you back to the barrel chairs? 

 

Nope.  The barrel chair people are persistent.

[elliair]

1 hour ago, MissP22 said:

If you truly cared about the environment you wouldn't be cruising at all.

Not that it would do much good in the overall scheme of things but it might make you feel as though you did something. 

What you said is true.  May as well stop living because everything we do on a daily basis is "polluting."  From the day we were born, we pollute.  So, all this polluting talk is making me want to book another cruise for January 2020.  DH will be fully recovered by then, where to go, where to go and consume and pollute?  I ain't dead yet!  My plan is to stay away from the contaminated kale and Romaine lettuce, I hear it's bad for your health these days. 😂

[nukesubsailor]

8 hours ago, Expat Cruise said:

Carnival has  already been found guilty of the crimes the Corporation was charge with now they are in violation of  the Probation they agreed to. Does not matter who gets hurt here the law is very clear. The judge can add move fines, can banned them from doing business, or can jail members of the Corporation or any combination wanted. 

 

I have seen many environmental laws during my career as an environmental technician.  They all spelled out a range of punishments for violations. Example: "Violation is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 and/or imprisonment of up to 5 years."

None of those laws ever once indicated that the judge could put the livelihood of tens of thousands of innocent people at risk.

Any judge who would do so should be immediately impeached, dis-barred and sued into a lifetime of poverty.

Punish only those who committed the crime and those who ordered them to do so.

[c-boy]

4 hours ago, bemis12 said:

 

Nope.  The barrel chair people are persistent.

so were the Boltens on G O T  😄

[broberts]

13 minutes ago, nukesubsailor said:

I have seen many environmental laws during my career as an environmental technician.  They all spelled out a range of punishments for violations. Example: "Violation is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 and/or imprisonment of up to 5 years."

None of those laws ever once indicated that the judge could put the livelihood of tens of thousands of innocent people at risk.

Any judge who would do so should be immediately impeached, dis-barred and sued into a lifetime of poverty.

Punish only those who committed the crime and those who ordered them to do so.

 

This is a serious parole violation. The company has already been convicted and fined.

 

How can one punish a company and not affect its innocent employees and customer? Any meaningful sanction is at a minimum going to have a negative impact on employees.

[Cruiserkenn]

6 hours ago, MissP22 said:

If you truly cared about the environment you wouldn't be cruising at all.

Not that it would do much good in the overall scheme of things but it might make you feel as though you did something. 

 

Thanks for this good thought.  I agree.  

[Cruiserkenn]

1 hour ago, nukesubsailor said:

I have seen many environmental laws during my career as an environmental technician.  They all spelled out a range of punishments for violations. Example: "Violation is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 and/or imprisonment of up to 5 years."

None of those laws ever once indicated that the judge could put the livelihood of tens of thousands of innocent people at risk.

Any judge who would do so should be immediately impeached, dis-barred and sued into a lifetime of poverty.

Punish only those who committed the crime and those who ordered them to do so.

 

Thanks Nukesubsailor.

[4x4bob]

Well, IF, the judge does send some of the Carnival Corp leaders to jail, I hope that the deputy takes the Barrel Chair out of their cell.   🤣

Bob

[nukesubsailor]

2 hours ago, broberts said:

 

This is a serious parole violation. The company has already been convicted and fined.

I think you mean probation violation, not parole.  Just because they have already been fined doesn't mean they cannot be fined again.  Say your teenager sneaks out at night and you ground him or her for a week.  Then you find out the kid sneaked out again.  You increase the grounding from a week to a month----you don't break the kid's legs.

How can one punish a company and not affect its innocent employees and customer?

Just like I said---fine and jail the just the specific individuals who committed or ordered the violations.

Banning cruise lines from using American ports will be punishing tens of thousands of innocent people such as employees of airlines, taxi companies, hotels, gas stations, refineries, oil fields, restaurants, gift shops, tour companies, etc.  Cities and states that have cruise ports will lose tax revenue that they use to provide services such as police and fire protection. 

Any meaningful sanction is at a minimum going to have a negative impact on employees.

 

[susiesan]

If this judge rules against Carnival Corp barring ships from US ports that means no cruises departing or ending in the US as well as stopping in US ports. This will not happen. 

[bmc alabama]

So, from the Miami Herald yesterday, a few tidbits:

 

The Miami Herald reviewed each incident and found that 24 were for illegally dumping sewage, food waste or oil; 19 were for illegally burning heavy fuel oil in protected areas; and more than 150 were the result of items like furniture accidentally going overboard. Carnival Corp. reported the violations to authorities directly or noted them in their internal records. None of the violations was intentional, according to the report. 

 

Released more than 11,000 gallons of food waste and saw dozens of physical objects drop into ports and waters close to shore in violation of international and domestic laws. Among the items that accidentally went overboard were five chairs, 41 cushions and pillows and 10 tables, most of them thrown by passengers. It is illegal to throw garbage overboard anywhere in the ocean under international law. Food waste can be discharged three miles off land in some areas, 12 miles off land in others.

 

I would hope these passengers would be liable as well

 

Fourteen violations occurred in Florida ports or off of the Sunshine State’s shores. In one instance in October 2017, the Carnival Paradise ship burned heavy fuel oil unfiltered for 40 minutes while in port in Tampa. In March 2018 while at port in Jacksonville, a pallet broke and a plastic container with 30 pounds of egg yolks fell overboard.

 

I'll hold them responsible for the first, but the second one???

 

In August 2017, the Grand Princess cruise ship arrived at the port in Ketchikan, Alaska, with a dead humpback whale on its bow.

 

How the heck does this happen???

 

[chengkp75]

27 minutes ago, bmc alabama said:

I'll hold them responsible for the first, but the second one???

How the heck does this happen???

 

The key part is that it was a plastic container, not that it contained egg yolks.  Plastic going in the water is a serious violation.

The whale was likely dead or dying and the ship happened to scoop it up on its bulbous bow.  Its not unheard of.

[bemis12]

15 hours ago, Expat Cruise said:

my MBA is from Boston, so I know exactly how things are done.

 

 

😂

[drjpreston]

9 hours ago, elliair said:

What you said is true.  May as well stop living because everything we do on a daily basis is "polluting."  From the day we were born, we pollute.  So, all this polluting talk is making me want to book another cruise for January 2020.  DH will be fully recovered by then, where to go, where to go and consume and pollute?  I ain't dead yet!  My plan is to stay away from the contaminated kale and Romaine lettuce, I hear it's bad for your health these days. 😂

We have booked a B2B in January for a total of 25 days.  I don't feel guilty at all.  Plan to carry dirty clothes in plastic bags and take some plastic straws for my sodas along with me.  I will drive to the port in my gas using car and my let it idle while my wife unloads the luggage.  LOL.  

[nukesubsailor]

On 4/15/2019 at 10:08 PM, schlogee said:

And this is what is wrong with our country - assuming that only a select few "non-normal" people in CA would even care about the environment.  I am terribly upset by this, and this is going to put a damper on my cruise this summer (for which we just finished final payment a week ago - so too late to cancel). I will probably not be cruising again - not because I think it will impact the cruise lines, because I know it won't, thanks to all you "normal" people - but because I don't want to be contributing to the harm they are doing to our precious natural resources. I really do enjoy cruising, so this is bumming me out 😞

Instead of giving up cruising, take up kayaking.  Paddling emits no pollutants.  No wait----forget kayaking.  Kayaks are made of plastic and you will be subject to a fine if you put plastic in the ocean.

[Expat Cruise]

Found some interesting information in the Miami Herald about this case It seems in the last year April 2018 to April 2019 Carnival has been involved in no less than 800 incidents of environmental compliance  issues. We are not talking about a few isolated cases here 800 in only one year while on probation.  This is not something that is just going to go away.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article229285319.html?fbclid=IwAR3EzdvLhUSMC3PwkR9GAnTMGUMgFU-8uOIwPzGsz7SeTGSTSckZPm9obqU

[Ep010835]

This appears to be a really great opportunity for those who are "hardliners" to leave the world of cruising altogether. 

I have to wonder in which states some of those "experts" are members of the bar.