Environmental issues

[emam]

I received an email from P&O about what steps they are taking for the issues.

 

Our changes we have already put in place or are in progress:

We have already replaced single use plastic items like cotton buds, straws, stirrers and Sail Away flags with more sustainable alternatives or reduced their use to 'on request' only. Our straws, for instance, are now plastic-free and made from a natural corn starch which is compostable.   We have completely removed the use of balloons.   We will remove the majority of single serve sachets and containers this year, for example sauce sachets, margarine and foil-wrapped butter, jam and other condiments, and yoghurt pots. They will be replaced with refillable dispensers or serving dishes.   We are also developing plans to significantly reduce the amount of plastic waste created by the toiletries provided to each cabin, replace non-sustainable grab-and-go packaging found in our deck grills and to reduce our reliance on plastic water bottles.   Working closely with our suppliers, we are also striving to reduce food and beverage packaging and replace it with recyclable or biodegradable alternatives.   https://www.pocruises.com/environment?

 

 

 

 

[Harry Peterson]

We’ll all have received the same email I’m sure, but what really struck me about it was the triviality of most of the measures mentioned.

 

The really big issue is the sheer volume of filthy pollution churned out by cruise ships burning the most polluting sort of fuels imaginable to minimise costs. That’s the real issue, but they don’t like talking about it. Take a look from the stern some time and you’ll see behind you in the far distance a faint yellow haze of pollution, and the soot that appears on balconies is another indication.  

 

Not just a P&O issue of course, but we’re all responsible for the high levels of pollution and this big announcement by P&O is just papering over the massive chasms:

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/cruise-ships-air-pollution-dirty-fuel-heavy-oil-europe-ports-nabu-a8502771.html

 

 

[AndyMichelle]

32 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

We’ll all have received the same email I’m sure, but what really struck me about it was the triviality of most of the measures mentioned.

 

The really big issue is the sheer volume of filthy pollution churned out by cruise ships burning the most polluting sort of fuels imaginable to minimise costs. That’s the real issue, but they don’t like talking about it. Take a look from the stern some time and you’ll see behind you in the far distance a faint yellow haze of pollution, and the soot that appears on balconies is another indication.  

 

Not just a P&O issue of course, but we’re all responsible for the high levels of pollution and this big announcement by P&O is just papering over the massive chasms:

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/cruise-ships-air-pollution-dirty-fuel-heavy-oil-europe-ports-nabu-a8502771.html

 

 

Southampton has a major pollution problem.

They talk of banning cars from the city centre when all they need to do is look towards the dock...

Ships sit there all day with effectively their engines running to supply power.

I am sure measures are being taken and the newer ships will omit less pollution and the ports are upgrading to supply different forms of power while docked, but obviously it will take time to resolve the problem.

Anyway, off on Aurora in a bit... Did I mention I was going on a cruise today...😀

Andy

[emam]

10 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

 

Anyway, off on Aurora in a bit... Did I mention I was going on a cruise today...😀

Andy

 

I will be heading down tomorrow for Britannia. What is the weather like down there, it's miserable up here.

[AndyMichelle]

18 minutes ago, emam said:

 

I will be heading down tomorrow for Britannia. What is the weather like down there, it's miserable up here.

Cloudy but dry at the moment.

Forecast rain for tomorrow unfortunately, but it will be dry in the crows nest...

Have a fantastic time, we love Brittania.

Andy

[tring]

There has been a lot mentioned re plane travel in the last few days - I would love to know how that compares to travel by cruise ship.  We are tending to take more holidays using cruise ship for at least part of the transport needed, but also using land stays as well.  Thinking it may actually be better to use a short flight though. 

 

I find it sad that the only ships using cleaner fuel are massive ones, which in no way appeal to us.

 

Incidentally we know Fred uses cleaner fuel near land, but unfortunately reverts to heavy oil when a certain distance away as we spoke to an engineer one day.  Thinking P&O may do the same, though as their ships are newer, they may not use heavy oil at all.

[Harry Peterson]

17 minutes ago, tring said:

There has been a lot mentioned re plane travel in the last few days - I would love to know how that compares to travel by cruise ship.  We are tending to take more holidays using cruise ship for at least part of the transport needed, but also using land stays as well.  Thinking it may actually be better to use a short flight though. 

 

I find it sad that the only ships using cleaner fuel are massive ones, which in no way appeal to us.

 

Incidentally we know Fred uses cleaner fuel near land, but unfortunately reverts to heavy oil when a certain distance away as we spoke to an engineer one day.  Thinking P&O may do the same, though as their ships are newer, they may not use heavy oil at all.

I think you might be rather overoptimistic about P&O - they don't have a good track record (because of their ownership by Carnival) as here,  for example:

 

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-french-court-fines-po-captain.html

 

Iona is, I think, the only exception, in that it's fuelled by liquefied natural gas.  All the rest use the dirtiest fuel they can get away with.

 

As you say, flying is considerably cleaner - but obviously not if it's a fly-cruise!

 

Friends of the Earth take a very dim view of Carnival companies such as P&O, and they score very badly in most 'green' areas - which is precisely why they're pushing out emails like the one above trying to cover over the real facts.

 

https://foe.org/dont-cruise-criminal-carnival/

[tring]

16 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

I think you might be rather overoptimistic about P&O - they don't have a good track record (because of their ownership by Carnival) as here,  for example:

 

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-french-court-fines-po-captain.html

 

Iona is, I think, the only exception, in that it's fuelled by liquefied natural gas.  All the rest use the dirtiest fuel they can get away with.

 

As you say, flying is considerably cleaner - but obviously not if it's a fly-cruise!

 

Friends of the Earth take a very dim view of Carnival companies such as P&O, and they score very badly in most 'green' areas - which is precisely why they're pushing out emails like the one above trying to cover over the real facts.

 

https://foe.org/dont-cruise-criminal-carnival/

 

I think I am confusing pollution with Global warming and the promise for the UK to have net zero emissions by 2050.  Flying is reputed to be a big problem for that given the amount of energy needed for a flight.  I suppose in theory we should all just travel less, but this is the time of life we can do that and if I am alive in 2050 I will be 100 years old.  Sometimes I do think my views are a bit selfish though, so would be prepared to change our travel methods if another method is more globe friendly.  When we do travel a distance we tend to spend a fair while in a location or nearby, rather than just take lots of short trips.

 

I think removal of plastic from ships is important as I have often seen things blow off the ship directly into the seas/oceans.

Edited June 15, 2019 by tring

[BrianI]

If the FOE want to be credible, they should ensure that the information they put out is accurate. In the article about Carnival, they show a photo of a MSC ship.

 

MSC are not part of Carnival

 

Brian

[terrierjohn]

35 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

I think you might be rather overoptimistic about P&O - they don't have a good track record (because of their ownership by Carnival) as here,  for example:

 

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-french-court-fines-po-captain.html

 

Iona is, I think, the only exception, in that it's fuelled by liquefied natural gas.  All the rest use the dirtiest fuel they can get away with.

 

As you say, flying is considerably cleaner - but obviously not if it's a fly-cruise!

 

Friends of the Earth take a very dim view of Carnival companies such as P&O, and they score very badly in most 'green' areas - which is precisely why they're pushing out emails like the one above trying to cover over the real facts.

 

https://foe.org/dont-cruise-criminal-carnival/

You're being your usual unkind self here HP/Docco????, my understanding is that all the fleet now have exhaust scrubbers, or very soon will have, to clean up the emissions. The occasional black smoke was explained by the chief engineer as a necessity when starting up any of the engjnes which require an over rich mixture to get them going efficiently, so sooty spots on aft balconies are still likely. This new initiative to cut down on one use plastic packaging should also be applauded and not be disparaged either.

[daiB]

1 hour ago, terrierjohn said:

You're being your usual unkind self here HP/Docco????, my understanding is that all the fleet now have exhaust scrubbers, or very soon will have, to clean up the emissions. The occasional black smoke was explained by the chief engineer as a necessity when starting up any of the engjnes which require an over rich mixture to get them going efficiently, so sooty spots on aft balconies are still likely. This new initiative to cut down on one use plastic packaging should also be applauded and not be disparaged either.

 

Anyone who can get MT, you and me all agreeing must have worked hard to achieve it

[Bazrat]

31 minutes ago, Tommart said:

Seems a perfectly fair point to me - it's a classic trick, trying to cover over something pretty bad with some minor bits of good news. The government does it all the time.

 

Carnival has an appalling record and Friends of the Earth are quite right to point it out.  I'm a relatively satisfied P&O customer, but I do have some misgivings about the pollution they cause - though to be fair that applies to must cruises. It's just that Carnival has one of the worst records, so it makes sense for them to boast about trivial changes to try to make themselves look better than they actually are.

After the fine carnival received you cannot really argue the fact there standards were or are particularly low,but companies can change hopefully for the better,but to criticise them because there attempts don’t meet the posters high ideals,and then to continue to use there services is a bit hypocritical.

[Tommart]

On 6/15/2019 at 8:39 PM, Bazrat said:

After the fine carnival received you cannot really argue the fact there standards were or are particularly low,but companies can change hopefully for the better,but to criticise them because there attempts don’t meet the posters high ideals,and then to continue to use there services is a bit hypocritical.

You've obviously not read or understood the article.  The fines prove conclusively how little heed Carnival and its operating companies such as P&O pay to environmental laws or the environment.

 

"While the cruise industry’s behavior over the last two years, and frankly the last twenty, shows how little concern they have for keeping our oceans clean. Carnival Corporation — the largest cruise company on the planet — recently stated that “their environmental responsibility has been and continues to be top priority… our aspiration is to leave the places we touch even better than when we first arrived.” The criminal conviction of Carnival for polluting our oceans prove that their words are just empty rhetoric."

 

The recent red-herring email from P&O (doubtless reciprocated by other Carnival companies) about plastic straws etc is just another cynical attempt to cover over the real pollution they continue to cause.

 

And yes, I do agree that it's hypocritical to continue to cruise with Carnival companies - but I am cutting down!

[Bazrat]

1 hour ago, Tommart said:

You've obviously not read or understood the article.  The fines prove conclusively how little heed Carnival and its operating companies such as P&O pay to environmental laws or the environment.

 

"While the cruise industry’s behavior over the last two years, and frankly the last twenty, shows how little concern they have for keeping our oceans clean. Carnival Corporation — the largest cruise company on the planet — recently stated that “their environmental responsibility has been and continues to be top priority… our aspiration is to leave the places we touch even better than when we first arrived.” The criminal conviction of Carnival for polluting our oceans prove that their words are just empty rhetoric."

 

The recent red-herring email from P&O (doubtless reciprocated by other Carnival companies) about plastic straws etc is just another cynical attempt to cover over the real pollution they continue to cause.

 

And yes, I do agree that it's hypocritical to continue to cruise with Carnival companies - but I am cutting down!

Actually I did read it and completely understood the article but to put it into context they were found guilty and now trying to make amends.

I don’t have your ethical standards of just cutting down I am actually ramping up my cruise holidays.

[Bazrat]

2 hours ago, Bazrat said:

Actually I did read it and completely understood the article but to put it into context they were found guilty and now trying to make amends.

I don’t have your ethical standards of just cutting down I am actually ramping up my cruise holidays.

Just to add I recycle our household waste plus I am on the environmental committee at work we recycle the bulk of the waste,but I drive a German car built in Brazil own a washing machine built in turkey,own a tv built in China by a Japanese company and just eaten a chicken salad were the chicken came from Thailand,so which is the worse crime a holiday on a cruise ship or flying to Florida on holiday.

[mickey89]

Baz..rat - the sooner ALL cruiselines adopt low sulphur fuels the better and also ban the use of scrubber systems which just transfer the air pollution to the ocean via their waste water. If it means higher costs for us passengers so be it, at least we can all then cruise without a guilty conscience.

[terrierjohn]

39 minutes ago, mickey89 said:

Baz..rat - the sooner ALL cruiselines adopt low sulphur fuels the better and also ban the use of scrubber systems which just transfer the air pollution to the ocean via their waste water. If it means higher costs for us passengers so be it, at least we can all then cruise without a guilty conscience.

Since the scrubbers remove the particles from the exhaust gases, then surely that eliminates the pollution from the air making it cleaner for us to breathe, which is the major problem.  So what is your concern?

[Bazrat]

40 minutes ago, mickey89 said:

Baz..rat - the sooner ALL cruiselines adopt low sulphur fuels the better and also ban the use of scrubber systems which just transfer the air pollution to the ocean via their waste water. If it means higher costs for us passengers so be it, at least we can all then cruise without a guilty conscience.

Alas no guilty conscience here just about to hopefully have a good cruise and than return to work,we use highly refined cutting oil than the parts are washed in a chemical bath than plated to fit in a car you probably drive,but saying that you probably you drive a horse and cart.

[Tommart]

7 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

Since the scrubbers remove the particles from the exhaust gases, then surely that eliminates the pollution from the air making it cleaner for us to breathe, which is the major problem.  So what is your concern?

Sadly no - because the sludge produced is being dumped at sea, polluting the oceans. Scrubbers are being used to avoid cruise companies using more expensive low-sulphur fuels, but they don't remotely solve the pollution problem. That's the concern.

 

[Tommart]

15 hours ago, Bazrat said:

Actually I did read it and completely understood the article but to put it into context they were found guilty and now trying to make amends.

I don’t have your ethical standards of just cutting down I am actually ramping up my cruise holidays.

This doesn't sound remotely like a company trying to make amends:

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/carnival-cruise-company-20-million-pollution-violations-settlement-today-2019-06-03/

 

Yet another huge pollution fine for Carnival, and comments like this:

 

"Time and time again, Carnival has shown its contempt of environmental laws and the rule of law. Here we are again."

[Harry Peterson]

17 hours ago, Bazrat said:

Actually I did read it and completely understood the article but to put it into context they were found guilty and now trying to make amends.

I don’t have your ethical standards of just cutting down I am actually ramping up my cruise holidays.

Good to see that some people in here can appreciate the issues involved and the damage cruise ships are doing to the environment. 

 

You’re obviously entitled to your own approach on this, however, but some of us are genuinely worried about the impact on the future world our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren will have to live in.

 

They’ll be the ones paying the price for our cheap cruises, when the environmental issues could be substantially reduced by the use of less polluting fuels, albeit at higher fares.

[terrierjohn]

2 hours ago, Tommart said:

Sadly no - because the sludge produced is being dumped at sea, polluting the oceans. Scrubbers are being used to avoid cruise companies using more expensive low-sulphur fuels, but they don't remotely solve the pollution problem. That's the concern.

 

But the sludge is not being breathed in by mammals, and since it is mainly carbon then as carbohydrates it probably makes reasonable fish food.

[Harry Peterson]

30 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

But the sludge is not being breathed in by mammals, and since it is mainly carbon then as carbohydrates it probably makes reasonable fish food.

You're surely not making that comment seriously are you?  

 

The pollutants being dumped at sea include particulate matter, sulphur and metals such as lead, nickel and zinc, and you're happy to see fish that we eat feeding on that?

 

This is a far, far greater issue than the comparatively trivial plastic straws issue, and that's why Carnival companies are sending out emails making it look as if they're doing their bit for the environment.  If they really cared, they'd be swtiching to low sulphur fuel, but they're not.

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, Harry Peterson said:

You're surely not making that comment seriously are you?  

 

The pollutants being dumped at sea include particulate matter, sulphur and metals such as lead, nickel and zinc, and you're happy to see fish that we eat feeding on that?

 

This is a far, far greater issue than the comparatively trivial plastic straws issue, and that's why Carnival companies are sending out emails making it look as if they're doing their bit for the environment.  If they really cared, they'd be swtiching to low sulphur fuel, but they're not.

Docco, only the wash water from the scrubbers is discharged at sea, the residual sludge, which contains the pollutants you list, is unloaded in port and treated on shore, and Carnival insist they follow all regulatory guidelines.  

[Harry Peterson]

19 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Docco, only the wash water from the scrubbers is discharged at sea, the residual sludge, which contains the pollutants you list, is unloaded in port and treated on shore, and Carnival insist they follow all regulatory guidelines.  

I'm never going to convince you, obviously, but pollutants in the wash water include particulate matter and sulphur, as well as metals including lead, nickel and zinc.  

 

And as for Carnival following regulatory guidelines, try a few quick Google searches and you'll see just how compliant Carnival is!

 

This for example, one of many:  https://www.governmenteuropa.eu/carnival-corporation-air-pollution/93495/

 

And the Financial Times headline runs:  "Carnival cruise ships more polluting than all of Europe’s cars"

 

There are very serious issues here, and we owe it to our children and the planet not to keep sweeping them under the carpet - or under the sea!