erdoran Posted July 21, 2019 #251 Share Posted July 21, 2019 I don’t see grandpa should be charged. Clearly he made a terrible terrible mistake but is it criminal? He is already in a prison in his heart. Terrible accidents happen. Accidents. Assuming he wasn’t drunk or drugged or intentionally hanging her out an open window, how is his conduct criminal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
April42749 Posted July 21, 2019 #252 Share Posted July 21, 2019 55 minutes ago, erdoran said: I don’t see grandpa should be charged. Clearly he made a terrible terrible mistake but is it criminal? He is already in a prison in his heart. Terrible accidents happen. Accidents. Assuming he wasn’t drunk or drugged or intentionally hanging her out an open window, how is his conduct criminal? I'm not saying he should be charged, but this is how it may be criminal: Manslaughter is an unlawful killing that doesn't involve malice aforethought—intent to seriously harm or kill, or extreme, reckless disregard for life. The absence of malice aforethought means that manslaughter involves less moral blame than either first or second degree murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erdoran Posted July 21, 2019 #253 Share Posted July 21, 2019 Was this extreme, reckless disregard or an honest terrible mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Newleno Posted July 21, 2019 #254 Share Posted July 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, erdoran said: Was this extreme, reckless disregard or an honest terrible mistake? it was extreme, reckless disregard, plus grandpa could be charged with something less than manslaughter, just simple negligence that led to death, or child endangerment, or etc.... (I would not even let my granddaughter walk back to the car with me to get blankets before the firework show (she started to cry because she could not go with me) i knew there was just to much congestion in the parking lot and I was in a hurry and could not use my regular amount of caution) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erdoran Posted July 21, 2019 #255 Share Posted July 21, 2019 I guess I look at it as grandpa is going to suffer for the rest of his life from terrible guilt. Criminal charges will bring even more pain to the family including the parents. I don’t see the purpose of charging him. The stress and anxiety on top of the grief and guilt is horrible and it won’t bring the child back. What that family really needs is counseling and compassion to help them heal, not legal fees, court hearings, stress, jail, etc. Save the resources for the REAL criminals who get off with a slap on the wrist, where they intended to commit a crime and do so repeatedly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixCruiser Posted July 21, 2019 #256 Share Posted July 21, 2019 I took this picture last year while on The Freedom of the Seas. This is the same area of the horrible accident.You can see the difference between an open and closed window as well as the rail.Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare graphicguy Posted July 21, 2019 #257 Share Posted July 21, 2019 13 hours ago, erdoran said: Was this extreme, reckless disregard or an honest terrible mistake? It’s both! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Newleno Posted July 21, 2019 #258 Share Posted July 21, 2019 15 hours ago, erdoran said: I guess I look at it as grandpa is going to suffer for the rest of his life from terrible guilt. Criminal charges will bring even more pain to the family including the parents. I don’t see the purpose of charging him. The stress and anxiety on top of the grief and guilt is horrible and it won’t bring the child back. What that family really needs is counseling and compassion to help them heal, not legal fees, court hearings, stress, jail, etc. Save the resources for the REAL criminals who get off with a slap on the wrist, where they intended to commit a crime and do so repeatedly. Well for Grandpa and the family, what grandpa said to the authorities better match exactly as to what occurred on the video tapes otherwise the charges will be much worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare cruisequeen4ever Posted July 21, 2019 #259 Share Posted July 21, 2019 (edited) I can’t believe they’re going on TV saying they want answers! They already have them...it’s a public pool deck that needs ventilation and allows airflow by opening some of the windows. Parents are supposed to keep a close eye on their kids. People shouldn’t be putting their kids up on railings. I’m so sick of cruise lines being blamed for passenger’s mistakes and/or foolish actions. Please share what happens in the interview Monday. We only have Netflix, so I won’t be able to watch. Edited July 21, 2019 by cruisequeen4ever 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outerdog Posted July 21, 2019 #260 Share Posted July 21, 2019 14 minutes ago, cruisequeen4ever said: I can’t believe they’re going on TV saying they want answers! They already have them... No, no, no... they want an$wers. I wouldn't go on TV to talk about my dog dying, let alone my baby. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nascarcruiser Posted July 21, 2019 #261 Share Posted July 21, 2019 21 hours ago, erdoran said: I don’t see grandpa should be charged. Clearly he made a terrible terrible mistake but is it criminal? He is already in a prison in his heart. Terrible accidents happen. Accidents. Assuming he wasn’t drunk or drugged or intentionally hanging her out an open window, how is his conduct criminal? But because this happened in Puerto Rico this could very well happen. Different country different laws. Not saying it should or will happen just that there could be a possibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ColeThornton Posted July 21, 2019 #262 Share Posted July 21, 2019 1 hour ago, nascarcruiser said: But because this happened in Puerto Rico this could very well happen. Different country different laws. Not saying it should or will happen just that there could be a possibility Puerto Rico is a part of the U.S. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nascarcruiser Posted July 21, 2019 #263 Share Posted July 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, ColeThornton said: Puerto Rico is a part of the U.S. Still has it's own laws. It's a US territory not a state 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare ColeThornton Posted July 21, 2019 #264 Share Posted July 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, nascarcruiser said: Still has it's own laws. It's a US territory not a state I didn't say it was a state. You said it was a different country. I was pointing out that was incorrect. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umbarger Posted July 22, 2019 #265 Share Posted July 22, 2019 In no way is this the cruise lines fault. Someone had to lift the baby up there and someone had to let the baby go. It's the grandfather's fault and the family is trying like mad to blame someone else. How else could they live with themselves. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixCruiser Posted July 22, 2019 #266 Share Posted July 22, 2019 But because this happened in Puerto Rico this could very well happen. Different country different laws. Not saying it should or will happen just that there could be a possibility What? Not a different country at all!Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallux Posted July 22, 2019 #267 Share Posted July 22, 2019 I just watched the interview on Today. While I feel sorry for the family, the cruise line holds little/no fault here. "We absolutely blame the cruise line" was one thing the family said. They reiterated the "Why was there an open window on the 11th deck near a kid's play area" mantra (likely a "tent pole" for their lawsuit). MOST kids in that play area aren't going to be able to reach that sill or climb that railing to get through the open window, I don't see how this can be a solid argument to win a case. IMO - it's unreasonable to hold the line responsible for this when an adult placed the child on a railing, open window or not. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KateQ22003 Posted July 22, 2019 #268 Share Posted July 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, hallux said: I just watched the interview on Today. While I feel sorry for the family, the cruise line holds little/no fault here. "We absolutely blame the cruise line" was one thing the family said. They reiterated the "Why was there an open window on the 11th deck near a kid's play area" mantra (likely a "tent pole" for their lawsuit). MOST kids in that play area aren't going to be able to reach that sill or climb that railing to get through the open window, I don't see how this can be a solid argument to win a case. IMO - it's unreasonable to hold the line responsible for this when an adult placed the child on a railing, open window or not. I agree with you. That interview made me very angry. The open window was NOT at ground level; the child had to be lifted up and placed on a railing in order for this accident to happen. It's not a safety hazard and it's not the fault of the cruise line. Made me sick. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFMOM Posted July 22, 2019 #269 Share Posted July 22, 2019 Well nothing new in the interview. Just reiterating that Grandpa put the baby on a railing, he thought there was glass there and she fell through the window. Again they said why should there be an open window in a wall of windows in a children’ s play area. They stated they blame the cruise company and want to take them to court. No real statements from Royal or Police because of continuing investigation. One very quick small picture of the area involved in which I could immediately tell the open window even with the bad picture. The realization that the window was open would be 1000 percent more obvious in person. Very sad interview, but very misguided in blaming the cruise company. Mary Ann 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonmom Posted July 22, 2019 #270 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) Just watched the interview on the Today show. I'm going to try to put it down with what was said and not my interpretation. For those who missed the interview. It started out with the family talking about how wonderful their little girl was, showing video and pictures of this beautiful 18 month old. Her first word was "hi", she loved people. Then the mother stated she had "alot of questions, primarily why is there an open window in the kids play area 11 stories off the ground". It said the cruise-line has the sliding glass windows to open and provide ventilation. Next it said that the family's attorney stated that "the toddler's grandfather placed her on a railing to look outside believing he was lifting her behind a wall of glass. Something they did often at home at hockey games with Chloe banging on the glass". The mother said that the grandfather was extremely hysterical the thing he repeatedly states is that he believes there was glass. The mom states he has cried over and over. She slows down and states "at no point ..... ever ...... ever ..... has Sam ever put our kids in danger". Chloe's father answers a question about how the grandfather is doing and he says that the grandfather is extremely distraught and can barely be looked at without starting to cry, that Chloe was his best friend. The mother does talk about the moment she found out. She talks about another mother on board comforting her and wants to thank her. She talks about her son and how he felt if he was closer he could have saved his sister. When asked about blame, blame the cruise line - "we obviously blame them. There are a million things that could have been done to make that safer." She states how her mother asks people why on earth there would be a window open on the 11th floor without a screen or anything and they were told it was to provide ventilation. She states she says to those people "get a fan. Come up with some other mechanism to make your guests comfortable rather than creating a tremendous safety hazard that cost our child their life". When asked if they wanted to see the cruise line held responsible in court the mother said "I think that they have to be. This cannot happen to another family." Next on to the lawyer (who has sued cruise lines in the past) who states that there is "no doubt that this was a accident but really the singular question is were there safety measure that could have been in place and should have been in place, and uh, if the were in place there would have been no tragedy". It then goes on to give what Royal Caribbean statement can. "We are deeply saddened by this incident, and our hearts go out to the family. We have assisted the authorities in San Juan with their inquiries, and they are the appropriate people to address further questions." The Puerto Rico department of justice told NBC that the investigation is in it's advanced stages and so it can not make any additional comments. They finished by talking about how they wanted to remember Chloe. Saying Chloe "was the light". NBC person goes on to talk about how "obviously they are looking into what they think the cruise company should or shouldn't have done." They say that the family's attorney has repeatedly requested footage from cameras the ship as well as vessel inspection. They then say they think more than anything the family just wanted to tell Chloe's story. That she lived and what an extraordinary little child she was. They then go on to offer their thoughts and prayers for the family. Edited July 22, 2019 by Jasonmom 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare shof515 Posted July 22, 2019 #271 Share Posted July 22, 2019 For those that missed it, here is the interview from the today website: https://www.today.com/news/parents-toddler-who-fell-royal-caribbean-cruise-ship-share-unfathomable-t159158 Article about the interview: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-ne-family-toddler-fell-from-cruise-ship-nbc-today-show-20190722-uubvgszqjngufljkdf7xggaaby-story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonmom Posted July 22, 2019 #272 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, shof515 said: For those that missed it, here is the interview from the today website: https://www.today.com/news/parents-toddler-who-fell-royal-caribbean-cruise-ship-share-unfathomable-t159158 Article about the interview: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-ne-family-toddler-fell-from-cruise-ship-nbc-today-show-20190722-uubvgszqjngufljkdf7xggaaby-story.html Wish I would have known how to do this. If it allows others to watch video, it is better than what I wrote. Everyone should make up their own minds about what was said. I just went back and watched video. What I saw was older video and not the interview from this morning. Edited July 22, 2019 by Jasonmom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare shof515 Posted July 22, 2019 #273 Share Posted July 22, 2019 another article based on the today show interview: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/national-international/Parents-of-toddler-who-fell-from-Royal-Caribbean-cruise-ship-share-unfathomable-grief-513028641.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMLAalum Posted July 22, 2019 #274 Share Posted July 22, 2019 The banging on the glass reason for grandpa lifting Chloe to the window bothers me greatly. Banging on glass is not a good thing to let a baby do whether at a hockey game or looking out a window at home. 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser_1977 Posted July 22, 2019 #275 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) The Today Show used animation to show the area where it happened. No loungers (I think two deep) around the area. Doesn't show the chairs and tables in front of the window. No railing and no differentiation in color. To folks that have never been on a ship and don't realize those things, it's deceiving. It appears that there are no obstacles between the "Splash Zone" and the windows. Edited July 22, 2019 by JennyB1977 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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