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Family's statement on toddler's cruise death


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1 hour ago, mjkacmom said:

If someone has a stroke and gets into a car accident, and a child is killed, should they be charged? Did you read any of the articles? This is a real issue that folks should take seriously, and try to prevent. Saying “I could never do that” is dangerous, and not accurate.

No, because the stroke is not something the person could control.  The definition of negligent homicide, or indifferent homicide, is that the person acted in a way that disregarded the victim's safety.  And the yardstick for what is a proper action or a negligent action is "what would a "prudent" person do?"  The grandfather acted in a way that disregarded the safety of the child in a way that most prudent people would not do.

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7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, because the stroke is not something the person could control.  The definition of negligent homicide, or indifferent homicide, is that the person acted in a way that disregarded the victim's safety.  And the yardstick for what is a proper action or a negligent action is "what would a "prudent" person do?"  The grandfather acted in a way that disregarded the safety of the child in a way that most prudent people would not do.

I totally agree that this GRANDPARENT, acted in a way that most of us would not act.  I also think that most Grandparents hold grandchildren in very high standard.  I'm not saying that this grandparent didn't but, I do beleive he lacked experience with children at this age and wonder if he ever had children of his own.  

 

I also think that the lawyers on both sides would be remiss if they didn't read every single post here and on the other major media sites to cull all of the statements made by fellow passengers and those seen as experts in the "loss of consciousness" (or common sense) of this adult male accounts for manslaughter or accidental death. Not us, unless we/they have knowledge that may add to the defense or prosecution.

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48 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, because the stroke is not something the person could control.  The definition of negligent homicide, or indifferent homicide, is that the person acted in a way that disregarded the victim's safety.  And the yardstick for what is a proper action or a negligent action is "what would a "prudent" person do?"  The grandfather acted in a way that disregarded the safety of the child in a way that most prudent people would not do.

So, have you read the countless articles about how this happens? I’m the parent of five almost adult/adult children, and I will make sure they are aware of this, and take precautions to make sure this never happens to their family. The human brain is imperfect, it can fail.

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19 minutes ago, Outerdog said:

 

You're kidding, right?

 

Right?

The family has brought a law suit.. am I kidding or are you kidding yourself that the lawyers will not try to find whatever information is available regarding this case at their disposal.  

I'm a Canadian... this probably wouldn't even be considered a valid case for lawsuit. It would most likely be deemed an accident. 

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28 minutes ago, All-ready2cruise said:

The family has brought a law suit.. am I kidding or are you kidding yourself that the lawyers will not try to find whatever information is available regarding this case at their disposal.  

 

There is nothing in this thread which isn't immediately obvious to anyone reviewing the incident.

 

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I believe that CC has some sort of tie to Royal.  They filter out just about all negative when it comes to Royal.  

 

Royal also pays to get positive press from the likes of CBS (covering Celebrity’s new ship last Sunday) and about their upcoming ships.  Nothing wrong with that.  That’s how they choose to do their marketing.  Just be aware of that.

 

For a while there, it was clear that someone (some people) were coming to the NCL, CCL etc threads and spreading FUD while talking up Royal.  Not sure if that was gorilla marketing on the part of Royal or another entity.

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2 hours ago, All-ready2cruise said:

The family has brought a law suit.. am I kidding or are you kidding yourself that the lawyers will not try to find whatever information is available regarding this case at their disposal.  

I'm a Canadian... this probably wouldn't even be considered a valid case for lawsuit. It would most likely be deemed an accident. 

Just curious.... in Canada, a deliberate negligent act that resulted in a death would be ruled an "accident"? 

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A friend of mine and his brother were arguing, my friend had a sharp filet knife in his hand, he turned around not realizing that his brother was approaching him, the knife hit just the right spot and punctured his brother's aorta - he bled out in minutes. They convicted my friend of manslaughter and he did about 4yrs of jail time. The DA twisted the facts around making points to the jury that my friend acted out of anger and it was not an accident. He felt bad enough for killing his only sibling but having to do jail time and now have a criminal record he really had a hard time.

 

I feel for the grandfather as he will have to live with this for the rest of his life I honestly hope he does not have to do jail time on top of this.

 

As far as the lawsuit - I think the family, and maybe their lawyer, are trying to deflect the blame away from the grandfather perhaps trying to move the conversation or maybe just the news cycle to the cruise line.

 

The family would be better off trying to grieve the loss, accept the consequences and move on. 

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8 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

So, have you read the countless articles about how this happens? I’m the parent of five almost adult/adult children, and I will make sure they are aware of this, and take precautions to make sure this never happens to their family. The human brain is imperfect, it can fail.

I'm assuming you mean leaving a child in a car as "this" happening.  Yes, I'm familiar with a number of articles about this, and in my opinion, it all boils down to a lapse in judgement, but I still don't see why this lapse in judgement, that caused a death, should be treated differently than the lapse of judgement that led to a DUI fatality.  Or, do you believe that a drunk who kills a family member in a car accident should not be prosecuted either, just because it is a family member?

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9 hours ago, All-ready2cruise said:

I'm not saying that this grandparent didn't but, I do beleive he lacked experience with children at this age and wonder if he ever had children of his own.

I believe that is step one on the journey to becoming a grandparent. 🙂

 

Edit before the pedants step in, I do understand that he could be a stepfather or something like that, but I couldn't let that stand in my way.

Edited by KeithJenner
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1 hour ago, KeithJenner said:

I believe that is step one on the journey to becoming a grandparent. 🙂

 

Edit before the pedants step in, I do understand that he could be a stepfather or something like that, but I couldn't let that stand in my way.

Yes, sorry, I was going with the info that indicated he was the step-grandfather. Kinda hard to have your own grandchildren without being a parent. 

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1 minute ago, All-ready2cruise said:

Yes, sorry, I was going with the info that indicated he was the step-grandfather. Kinda hard to have your own grandchildren without being a parent. 

To be honest, I haven't been keeping up with the story and just clicked on the thread today and read the last page, so wasn't aware that may be the case. I just chuckled when I read your post in isolation. 🙂

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To be honest, I haven't followed it closely either. The whole thing is horrible. The fact that the family is apparently suing RCCL is crazy and they must be so distraught.  Can't imagine.  Gross negligence or accidental death, makes no difference, they've lost a child. Very sad. 

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4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I'm assuming you mean leaving a child in a car as "this" happening.  Yes, I'm familiar with a number of articles about this, and in my opinion, it all boils down to a lapse in judgement, but I still don't see why this lapse in judgement, that caused a death, should be treated differently than the lapse of judgement that led to a DUI fatality.  Or, do you believe that a drunk who kills a family member in a car accident should not be prosecuted either, just because it is a family member?

Anyone who drinks, and then gets behind of the wheel, should be prosecuted. They drank alcohol, knowing it causes impairment, and it’s against the law to drink and drive, and yet chose to drive anyway. Apples and oranges.

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11 minutes ago, mjkacmom said:

Anyone who drinks, and then gets behind of the wheel, should be prosecuted. They drank alcohol, knowing it causes impairment, and it’s against the law to drink and drive, and yet chose to drive anyway. Apples and oranges.

Not apples and oranges, the drunk driver had callous indifference to the safety of others, so did the father who "assumed" he dropped his kids off at day care.  He did not show sufficient concern for their safety to double check before leaving the car.

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43 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Not apples and oranges, the drunk driver had callous indifference to the safety of others, so did the father who "assumed" he dropped his kids off at day care.  He did not show sufficient concern for their safety to double check before leaving the car.

 

While we are talking about accidentally leaving children in cars, I just want to mention that there is a new initiative for women to put their purse in the back seat so it forces them to look back there to retrieve their purse. It was started by a woman who actually did leave her child and lost them.  Not sure what would work for men, maybe a briefcase if they use one. Know this is off topic,  but wanted to get it out there. My daughter does this now with my granddaughter and so do I. 

 

Mary Ann

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48 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Not apples and oranges, the drunk driver had callous indifference to the safety of others, so did the father who "assumed" he dropped his kids off at day care.  He did not show sufficient concern for their safety to double check before leaving the car.

Because his brain told him he did drop the kids off. This is why they car manufacturers are putting safety features into vehicles reminding parents to check the back seat. I’ve raised 5 kids, and I didn’t routinely check the back seat of my car when I got out, I honestly don’t know many parents that do, because we trust our brains. I’ve never accidentally left a child in the car (although as a SAHM daily daycare drop off on the way to work wasn’t something I did, and it appears that’s when this happens), but I have found myself the victim of autopilot, and ending up at the baseball field instead of the soccer field, if I headed out a different way. Back when my kids were babies, this wasn’t well known, and at child safety classes, it was never mentioned. 

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15 minutes ago, UFMOM said:

 

While we are talking about accidentally leaving children in cars, I just want to mention that there is a new initiative for women to put their purse in the back seat so it forces them to look back there to retrieve their purse. It was started by a woman who actually did leave her child and lost them.  Not sure what would work for men, maybe a briefcase if they use one. Know this is off topic,  but wanted to get it out there. My daughter does this now with my granddaughter and so do I. 

 

Mary Ann

I think they should have to leave shoe in the back set with a child.  They could forget their child, they could forget their purse, but I guarantee you that they won't forget their shoe, because they will notice it is gone when they step out of their car and then hopefully remember their child.  This could also work for men as well.

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23 minutes ago, UFMOM said:

While we are talking about accidentally leaving children in cars, I just want to mention that there is a new initiative for women to put their purse in the back seat so it forces them to look back there to retrieve their purse. It was started by a woman who actually did leave her child and lost them.  Not sure what would work for men, maybe a briefcase if they use one. Know this is off topic,  but wanted to get it out there. My daughter does this now with my granddaughter and so do I. 

 

Leaving your phone on the back seat would work for both sexes and helps to fight that urge to read any new message as it arrives while driving a car.

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14 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

So, have you read the countless articles about how this happens? I’m the parent of five almost adult/adult children, and I will make sure they are aware of this, and take precautions to make sure this never happens to their family. The human brain is imperfect, it can fail.

 

Assuming we're talking instances where it was the parent unintentionally forgetting (I've seen articles where the car deaths are approximately 40% the parent truly forgetting, 20% the parent intentionally leaving the child, and 40% a non-parent caretaker doing it) then I think these hot car instances differ from what the grandfather did. While I don't think he was intentionally trying to kill his grandchild - the act of putting her up on the railing was intentional. Whereas with the truly accidental car deaths they often occurred because of a change in routine (like that parent didn't usually do drop off), parent was under stress, and I forget the other things mentioned in the article I read. Like the expert in the article I read (not psychologist, he was a neuro scientist who studies the brain and things like memory) if you can forget your wallet/phone/purse/whatever then you can forget your child. But (and this is me not the scientist) if you put your phone up on a railing and don't hold on to it tight enough - it could fall over. 

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37 minutes ago, mjkacmom said:

Because his brain told him he did drop the kids off. This is why they car manufacturers are putting safety features into vehicles reminding parents to check the back seat. I’ve raised 5 kids, and I didn’t routinely check the back seat of my car when I got out, I honestly don’t know many parents that do, because we trust our brains. I’ve never accidentally left a child in the car (although as a SAHM daily daycare drop off on the way to work wasn’t something I did, and it appears that’s when this happens), but I have found myself the victim of autopilot, and ending up at the baseball field instead of the soccer field, if I headed out a different way. Back when my kids were babies, this wasn’t well known, and at child safety classes, it was never mentioned. 

 

Considering you have adult children - it possibly wasn't brought up because the two bigger catalysts for the uptick in child car deaths weren't prominent or a law then. The uptick occurred after 1) young children were removed from the front seat after it was discovered that airbags could severely injure them followed by 2) the revelation that backwards car seats are safer for smaller children. 

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4 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

Wow, talk about veering off topic.  

 

Sorry, didn’t mean to start a new discussion, but with the grandpas actions now being compared to the child left in car situation, I just wanted to get a possibly lifesaving tip out there that I routinely promote. I hope we can get back to the topic which is cruise related as the moderators might take notice and this is really the only real thread left on this since the Royal forum deletes everything. I’m sure there will be more discussion on this event as more information becomes available. 

 

Mary Ann

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